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rbruner
03-07-2012, 05:55 PM
While the Champ is in the body shop I'm having some details attended to. The upper tailgate seam is rusting. The shop says they will grind away the rust & fill the seam with mar glass. What is it? The frame is also bent but that's another issue. Thanks in advance for info.

Bob Langer
03-07-2012, 06:22 PM
While the Champ is in the body shop I'm having some details attended to. The upper tailgate seam is rusting. The shop says they will grind away the rust & fill the seam with mar glass. What is it? The frame is also bent but that's another issue. Thanks in advance for info.

http://solutions.3m.com/wps/portal/3M/en_US/Marine/Home/Products/Catalog/?PC_7_RJH9U5230GE3E02LECIE20S4K7000000_nid=NZLHM417DQbeS38K155C5Rgl

Bob Andrews
03-07-2012, 06:25 PM
Red flag! That's basically bondo with fiberglas strands in it. Same as Tiger Hair, Kitty Hair, Duraglas, etc. What they're proposing is a cob-job repair, similar to patching rust holes with fiberglas or pop-riveting flashing.

The correct repair is to open the seam, sand blast, epoxy prime/weld through prime, close seam, and refinish. What they want to do will not clean out or stop the rust, just cover it; it will allow moisture in and hold it, actually accelerating the rust. Bad idea.

Now, if they explained this to you and quoted a price for either way, then no problem. Ideally they taught you the difference so you could make an informed decision on which way you wanted to go.

But if they're trying to pass this off as a proper repair, I'd be pissed... and wondering about the rest of their work.

kmac530
03-07-2012, 06:36 PM
Mar Glass is a type of body filler, similar to a Bondo product but it has fiberglass fibers in it to reinforce it and make it stronger.
Some love it, some hate it. It would be your call. It is a good product for its intended purpose, but if there is much rot I reccomend steel patches be welded in first and worked as smooth as possible then a thin film of a filler and some sealer and high fill primer and lots of block sanding before painting.

kurtruk
03-07-2012, 06:38 PM
New tailgates are available from SI. FYI

OOPS. Only for P-1 Beds.

ST2DE5
03-07-2012, 06:41 PM
Where do we get these EXPERTS. How many body shop degrees do you have? You better study up on Dyna-Glas they patch boats with it. If anybody needs a degree see Bob Andrews

bezhawk
03-07-2012, 06:55 PM
Bondo is a polyester filler, and porous, and steel will rust underneath it.
However Dura-glass/Kitty -hair is an epoxy based product and is truly impervious to moisture.
That being said, it is not the best product for going over bare steel. If it were me, I would cut out any rust and weld in new metal.
Barring that, I would sand-blast to bare steel, and coat it with Panel-bonding adhesive (like for door skins) then when it was cured, mar-glass over that.

SN-60
03-07-2012, 06:57 PM
To ST2DE5,---- kurtruk and Bob Andrews are explaning that grinding rust down and applying Mar-glass over it is at best a temporary repair. The rust will return, because it hasn't actually left! They are correct.

Bob Andrews
03-07-2012, 06:58 PM
Where do we get these EXPERTS. How many body shop degrees do you have? You better study up on Dyna-Glas they patch boats with it. If anybody needs a degree see Bob Andrews

I have two separate Auto Tech degrees. I am Bear frame certified. I attended PPG and Sikkens tech seminars on several occasions during the 20 plus years I owned and operated a successful collision and restoration shop. I've done ground-up restorations, heavy collision rebuilds, and most things in between. I grew up in the used car business and saw every conceivable short-cut cobble repair imaginable. That enough for you?

These products are made to repair FIBERGLAS. They will not stick to metal long-term, and make the problem worse. I did this thread illustrating exactly this:

http://forum.studebakerdriversclub.com/showthread.php?13651-Why-to-NOT-use-fiberglas-on-metal

So, if you want to use fiberglas on fiberglas, of course it's correct. And I never said it wasn't.

Why you decided to fire off without knowing what you're talking about, or what somebody's qualifications are, is a mystery. The purpose of my post was to give important information. What was the purpose of your unwarranted, nonsensical attack?

tbirdtbird
03-07-2012, 07:00 PM
sure they patch boats with Marglass etc, fiberglass boats. Not rusty boats.

I've done body work on 12 cars and painted them all. Some are 15-yr old jobs and they all look like I painted them yesterday. Learned from a hi-end 35-yr veteran. Have also repaired hundreds of boats.

The body shop should know this but just FYI for everyone else: Automotive primers and paints will not stick well to glass fiber. You cannot prime directly over marglass, you have to cover the marglass with a thin layer of regular bondo (use 'Rage' it is worth it). You need to cover any raw fiberglass with
1) a thin coat of 2-part resin such as you get from boat, hardware, or automotive stores (i've done this a hundred times on boat repair)
2) thin layer of bondo or icing

good luck

jclary
03-07-2012, 07:01 PM
Where do we get these EXPERTS. How many body shop degrees do you have? You better study up on Dyna-Glas they patch boats with it. If anybody needs a degree see Bob Andrews

Well...Sometimes it is a matter of common sense, dissimilar materials, bonding and variable rates of flexibility. You leave a spec of rust with a toehold in metal... give it a good diet of the salt air, fog, rain, and summer heat of the humid Charleston atmosphere...given enough time, the metal substrate will disappear leaving a little blob of fiberglass, resin and paint hanging by its fibers.

tbirdtbird
03-07-2012, 07:08 PM
yep, and the rusted area will push up (rust expands) and cause the finished surface to bubble and blister and ruin the appearance for sure

63t-cab
03-07-2012, 07:25 PM
Bob,I'm kinda thinking the same thing ! I'd be putting new metal as needed,then finish from there ! does'nt truely mean the rest of the work performed is gonna be lower end ? but I'm not there to see what happens in said shop. Rob, I would ask them for another version of approaching the tailgate and then weigh it out.I for one would want you to be happy with Champ's repairs !
Red flag! That's basically bondo with fiberglas strands in it. Same as Tiger Hair, Kitty Hair, Duraglas, etc. What they're proposing is a cob-job repair, similar to patching rust holes with fiberglas or pop-riveting flashing.

The correct repair is to open the seam, sand blast, epoxy prime/weld through prime, close seam, and refinish. What they want to do will not clean out or stop the rust, just cover it; it will allow moisture in and hold it, actually accelerating the rust. Bad idea.

Now, if they explained this to you and quoted a price for either way, then no problem. Ideally they taught you the difference so you could make an informed decision on which way you wanted to go.

But if they're trying to pass this off as a proper repair, I'd be pissed... and wondering about the rest of their work.

63t-cab
03-07-2012, 07:30 PM
ST2DE5, would you want a contractor to build you a house on a swamp ? or on a foundation ? in a nutshell that about sums it up !
Where do we get these EXPERTS. How many body shop degrees do you have? You better study up on Dyna-Glas they patch boats with it. If anybody needs a degree see Bob Andrews

Corvanti
03-07-2012, 07:35 PM
agree with bams, bez and others...

i wouldn't do it. :)

anybody want to see my "degrees" in body work? dude, lay off the positive comments by anyone trying to help!!! :mad:

kurtruk
03-07-2012, 07:40 PM
To ST2DE5,---- kurtruk and Bob Andrews are explaning that grinding rust down and applying Mar-glass over it is at best a temporary repair. The rust will return, because it hasn't actually left! They are correct.

How did I get in the middle of this? :confused:

ST2DE5
03-07-2012, 07:43 PM
Ask the experts. But how do you repair a car without body filler?

bezhawk
03-07-2012, 07:58 PM
As a little side note.......don't use polyester primer.....it will chip just looking at it. This includes ...feather fill.....slick sand.....etc. They too are porous and will cause rust to form underneath any surface abrasion... and NEVER wet sand it! I use a high build EPOXY primer first (after I think it's straight enough). Then after it is blocked down, I use a good urethane 2K primer and wet sand it down in stages to final grit of 800.
I too have credentials....I-Car, ASE, PPG, Sikkens, Dupont, Cheif, SEM, .....and have won first place national SDC with my work. and best of show at AOAI national meets with my work.

8E45E
03-07-2012, 08:01 PM
Ask the experts. But how do you repair a car without body filler?

Even factory-applied LEAD can lift eventually: http://forum.studebakerdriversclub.com/showthread.php?49035-Orphan-of-the-Day-02-25-1960-Imperial-LeBaron&highlight=imperial

Craig

Bob Andrews
03-07-2012, 08:02 PM
Ask the experts. But how do you repair a car without body filler?

1. Butt welding
2. Pick-and-filing
3. Shrinking metal
4. Stretching metal
5. Lead

And more- http://ezinearticles.com/?Metal-Finish---Filler-Free-Dent-Removal,-Techniques-to-Remove-Small-Dents-and-Waves&id=2848037

63t-cab
03-07-2012, 08:04 PM
Nothing wrong with useing body filler,but they have there place.such as over dents"that have been worked out enough so not to overload with filler" over two peices of metal that have been welded together.years ago one would just grind the metal " to get some tooth " and directly fill over.now a days they're useing epoxy primers over prepped steel,and then applying the fillers over the epoxies.but filling over rust and other foreign matter is really a waste of effort,as it will loose hold. I beleive that 1/4" is about the recommended thickness on body filler,now I know many have gone beyond that limit " ask me how I know this " <G> but still on prepped areas,not over rust.
Ask the experts. But how do you repair a car without body filler?

kmac530
03-07-2012, 08:29 PM
Where do we get these EXPERTS. How many body shop degrees do you have? You better study up on Dyna-Glas they patch boats with it. If anybody needs a degree see Bob Andrews

I see you are pointing that at Bob, but I was in there as well with an opinion, so I will address this question.
I have a degree from a 2 year autobody school called S.C.R.O.C. It was an ROP type program but I am certified from it. Couple that with my Dad being a painter and minor body man since he was a teen starting in the mid 50s and his Dad, my Grandpa, was a bodyman since the 30's. It is not only a school degree, but 3 lifetimes of experinence.
I was being polite in my comments that some like some dont. I have used a number of the Glass enforced fillers. I would NOT use it on a restoration. May be on a ratty rod or some patch up for a flip job, but NOT for a serious restoration.
I do use, and like fillers, like Evercoat featherlite and a few other Gold fillers, not the Bondo brand anymore, it is junk. All cars have fillers and when used propperly they are great, and neccesary product, but in my EDUCATED EXPERIENCE, not as a rust repair, especially if the it is rusted thru at ANY point. I don't care what the add for the product says. It says that you can cover holes up to 1" in diameter. You go ahead and do that on you 5k paint job or 350+ point restoration....not ME.

tbirdtbird
03-07-2012, 08:34 PM
ya, perhaps a point of clarification, i think we all use the term 'bondo' generically for plastic body filler but none of us actually mean the brand Bondo, which is a horrible product. You need a quality product such as Rage. The quality products have microspheres and are way easier to sand than Bondo could ever be, and adhere much better

52 Ragtop
03-07-2012, 08:38 PM
"Ask the experts. But how do you repair a car without body filler?"

1. Butt welding After cutting back to good clean metal
2. Pick-and-filing Has become a LOST art!
3. Shrinking metal Ditto!
4. Stretching metal Use "finesse" when stretching
5. Lead A LONG lost art!, besides, who wants to pay about $7.00 a pound (or more)and pay for the knowledge of someone doing it!

Plastic filler "Bondo" was designed to use as a skim coat over metal. NOT to fill in 1/4" or deeper dents! OR to fill in rust holes. It will sooner or later "crack out" and at that point, "It's the material is crap" I painted my 63 Avanti in 1981, with NO cracking of filler, I also used "Eliminator" 2 part primer, which when sprayed, smells like fiberglass resin with gray pigment added. (probably because it is) <G>
I painted my 52 Commander in 1990, plastic filler used, NO issues going on.

I used QUALITY products when I did the work! NO part store "bondo" get some good stuff! on the 52 I used Glasuit primers and paint, on the Avanti, I used Standox primers and paint. I do not remember how much the materials cost on the 52, but on the Avanti, I used about $1400 for the primer, basecoat, clear coat, hardeners, and reducers. NOT including tape, sand paper, and misc. other materials.

One more note for those of you that use fiberglass over metal. It does NOT stick very well for a long time. I learned that when I worked in a fiberglass shop in Glendale Ca. making molds for the Auburn replica.

If you want, you can even use panel bond to glue a patch in, still won't be "right" but a lot better than just filling with Mar-Glas. <G>

There is NO such thing as a cheap paint job! You GET what you pay for, and you PAY for what you get!!

Jim

bezhawk
03-07-2012, 08:57 PM
I can do lead......but I never do it anymore.....it's too toxic. there are better products out there. Even the factories stopped using lead many years ago.
It is not the be-all end-all as thought by "experts" . I wouldn't even do it on a Duesenburg.

Bob Andrews
03-07-2012, 09:07 PM
Jim, I've still got all my paddles and tallow left over from school; even about 20 sticks of lead. I'd still use it in limited situations; mostly things like roof and trunk lip seams, or on a car with just one small area or two. Got all my files and hammers too. I was doing body work for Dad as a kid, but when I went to school he was very proud. On my first day He and Mom gave me a brand new curved cross-peen hammer, and I still have it. Even though it's not getting much use currently, I occasionally take it out and polish the head with 600 paper. Soon it will be back to work. Also got Dad's Binks 7, but will likely buy a new HVLP gun.

I have taught pick-and-file to a couple young guys, but mostly they don't think it's worth the effort. The pride of removing a dent without filler has almost disappeared; but you can still find some real craftsmen in high-quality shops.

And you won't find them slobbering anything over rusty seams:)

52 Ragtop
03-07-2012, 09:07 PM
Bez,
There's NOT many of us left that can do lead! <G> I guess it shows out age!! LOL
With all of the new materials out there, I agree, but I'd have to think twice on a Duesenburg! <G> Most likely, metal finish that baby! LOL

Jim

52 Ragtop
03-07-2012, 09:09 PM
Bob,
Get yourself a "Bullseye Pick" They are great! You'll have to Google it

Jim

Bob Andrews
03-07-2012, 09:10 PM
Bob,
Get yourself a "Bullseye Pick" They are great! You'll have to Google it

Jim

Got mine at Carlisle about 5 years ago!

rockne10
03-07-2012, 09:30 PM
I wouldn't even do it on a Duesenburg.Many of them had body by Weymann, strictly wood and fabric; would not want to use lead on that!

http://www.google.com/#hl=en&gs_nf=1&cp=18&gs_id=38&xhr=t&q=Weymann+coachworks&pf=p&biw=1152&bih=701&sclient=psy-ab&oq=Weymann+coachworks&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&gs_sm=&gs_upl=&gs_l=&pbx=1&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_qf.,cf.osb&fp=d8f8697aec796274

JoeHall
03-07-2012, 09:55 PM
Soo what's the concensus on "LumaLead"? I used it in the rear fender on a GT, for some rather extensive repair back in 1992, and still can't find it under the paint.

jclary
03-07-2012, 10:06 PM
Where do we get these EXPERTS. How many body shop degrees do you have? You better study up on Dyna-Glas they patch boats with it. If anybody needs a degree see Bob Andrews

So...now that we have slapped you around a bit...I would like to thank you for supplying this little "bolt of lightning" comment to really spark a great discussion. After all...we are car guys. People come and go here on the forum and this is a discussion that needs constant repeating for the benefit of those wanting to do some of their own body work.

I don't know what caused you to post in a manner that could have been interpreted as offensive to some (although I think it was posted at about "happy hour" time for your part of the country.:o) Also, the exchange falls along the lines of what I consider the "Studebaker Personality." (Especially the edgy side :p) The end result has been a good and informative conversation.

This would be a good time for a good forum handshake. The resulting conversation has been very informative. :)

starliner62
03-07-2012, 10:31 PM
Now hold on a minute! Dastardly Dick Datson said the ONLY way to fix a Stude floor was to fiberglass the whole thing!!!......And he knew eveything (even Atlantis)!!!:cool::cool::cool:

kmac530
03-07-2012, 10:46 PM
I did not take it as offensive. I just thought I would express where my opinions were from. I dont know that anyone has gotten hot here. I hope not. But then again I like lively discussions. All good here.

{Hand out and shaking with a smile on my face}

SN-60
03-07-2012, 10:54 PM
To kurtruk,------ Sorry about dragging You into that!.....I was referring to the Bob Andrews and bezhawk initial posts.

bezhawk
03-08-2012, 08:31 AM
To kurtruk,------ Sorry about dragging You into that!.....I was referring to the Bob Andrews and bezhawk initial posts.
Mr. Capozzi, I didn't endorse using ANYTHING but stated what mar-glass actually is. I stated the best method is replacing metal with metal.

Why the hostility towards others opinions?
Every post is directed at trying to help an initial question, and should be ecouraged.

Bob Andrews
03-08-2012, 08:42 AM
I don't know what caused you to post in a manner that could have been interpreted as offensive to some (although I think it was posted at about "happy hour" time for your part of the country.:o)

I'm still wondering about this myself...

JoeHall
03-08-2012, 10:21 AM
Lots of spirited, professional rant on this thread about the benefits of professional repairs with professional materials, but not much on LONGEVITY, which seems relevant. Being an amateur and CASO, I have used most of the stuff that has been ridiculed here over the past 27 years on Studes. I have found fiberglass will last 3 to 5 years before separation becomes an issue; kitty hair is good for 8-10 years; bondo is good for 10-15 years, and LumaLead is good for 20+ years. I am thinking "professional" repairs, with professional materials, as ranted about above, may last for maybe 30-50 years. Given our average age, who really cares about problems 10+ years from now ????
I plan to use kitty hair, bondo and LumaLead on the next bodywork & paint job on the GT, but that's just me. Maybe some others here are gonna live a lot longer than average life expectancy. I'm sure we all wanna live to be at least 100, but bodywork deterioration is probably not gonna be high on my list of concerns if I make it that far :)

jclary
03-08-2012, 11:17 AM
Joe Hall makes a good point. It really depends on what your skills and level of comfort is along with your goals for the vehicle. In 1988, I was invited to bring my GT Hawk to participate in the parade lap for the NASCAR Darlington race. At the time, I had planned on a quality restoration some time in the future. However, having a kid in middle school, starting a new job, and just living...was about all I could do at the time.

Although the Hawk looked pretty good at 50 feet, there was some rust bubbling up at the lower rear quarters. I banged off the big rust flakes, wire brushed, and ground off all the rust I could, and slapped some kitty hair in the quarter size hole. I smoothed and feathered the goop, rattle can splattered some gray primer and gloss black. At Darlington, it was one of the big hits of the parade. Later that year, it was used in a movie. A couple of weeks after the movie deal, I traded the car for a new heating and air system for my home plus more cash than I had paid for the car. Then...the guy that bought the car wrecked it two days after buying it from me. In that case...the best repair job in the world wouldn't have mattered.

SN-60
03-08-2012, 04:48 PM
Dear Mr. bezhawk,.... Time to reread the text! I agreed with Bob Andrews and Yourself on perhaps the best way to fix the problem that rbrunner asked about. The body shop He's dealing with suggests they grind down the rusty area, and put
mar-glass over it. I do not think this is the best way to achieve a long lasting repair.....and it sure sounded like You didn't either. I do not believe I was being 'hostile' to anyone. (except maybe that body shop)
Once again, I think You need to calm down and reread the posts. Have a nice day!

rockne10
03-08-2012, 09:56 PM
who really cares about problems 10+ years from now ????
I consider myself an amateur restorer but attempt to do the very best work I can. Based on past experience when I paid to have things done, the work I do now is better. I can drive them with a lot of pride, and hope I will still be doing so in ten years.
I have no doubt these Studes will be around long after I am gone, and someone yet unborn will be entranced by them, grateful that someone years prior bothered to care.

Bob Andrews
03-11-2012, 12:40 PM
rbruner, any updates on this??

aarrggh
03-11-2012, 03:04 PM
It should be a sturdy repair , Cause thats where your gonna be setting your 2x6s when at the lumber yard . .

http://i44.tinypic.com/11v7220.jpg

kmac530
03-11-2012, 03:43 PM
GREAT point aarrggh.
A quick, somewhat temporary fix at the bottom edge of a rusty fender corner is one thing, I still would not do it on any restoration, maybe a cheapy last resort quick fix, but not on anything structural like a trunk lid hinge area, tailgate, doors...anywhere with movement and loads.

wittsend
03-12-2012, 08:58 PM
I used a fiberglass patch to repair a hole in a wheel well. Apparently a tire chain (or something) got loose and knocked a silver dollar size hole in the metal. I trimmed out the rough edges. I then stripped the paint about 1/2" around the hole - on both sides. I cut one piece to fit the hole itself. I cut two pieces to fit the size I had stripped the paint back too. I then sandwiched the three pieces together with resin. I likely put a few coats of resin on. Afterwards I painted the weather side of the wheel well and then applied undercoat from a can. I had this car 10 years, stripped it to the bone at the end of its life and never had any rust issues with this repair. Likely it helped that the repair didn't have to be "feather" sanded like an exposed body panel, but still the fiberglass held up, didn't work loose or rust. I think a lot of fiberglass repairs go bad from poor prep or use on panels that flex a lot.

I also used the fiberglass impregnated Bondo to repair some small rust holes in the roof of a Datsun 510. 8 years later the repair is holding and not rusting. And, that car was only painted with OSH $2.49 a can flat black paint (about 12 cans). I also have used flat, replacement steel with pop rivets on floors. I prepped (drilled holes - FIRST ,removed rust, painted and then silicone caulked the patch into a whole section of a Volvo 544. 15 years later the repair was "drum" tight and showing no signs of rust.

Again, I think it is all about knowing the limits of the product and proper preparation. I realize there are professional repairs that are a skill and some people are willing to pay for that. However, for the individual enthusiast other methods can work to great satisfaction. I remember years ago my wife came home from the dentist stating she needed a $250 bit guard to protect her from grinding her teeth at night. A trip to K-Mart and a $1.50 athletic mouth guard (properly trimmed - again it's all about the prep) solved the problem.

Tom