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View Full Version : Need advice-stuck exhaust valve-63GT-289



starlightchamp
09-11-2006, 04:27 PM
Finally,after hours of troubleshooting the ignition to cure rough
running without success, I did a compression check. Seven ctlinders were a 160 PSi,
unfotunatley #3 was ZERO! Removed valve cover and the valve spring
on what I think is the exhaust valve (fouth from front,drivers side)
was stuck open. The valve spring appears fully compressed and not
broken, although my old eyes could be wrong. What to do?
I'm 76 and not really strong enough to tear down an engine and the
nearest Studebaker repair place is 400 miles away in Oakland Ca.
Any tricks to do that might free the valve ? All help,suggestions greatly appreciated.
Car is a 63 Hawk GT with 389 vanilla engine.
I tried to post a photo but failed as usual-
...Dick Curtis

1950 Champion Starlight
1963 Hawk GT
Santa Barbara
CA

Mike Van Veghten
09-11-2006, 06:44 PM
Why does it have to be a..."Studebaker guy"...?

It's just a stuck valve!

Any competent shop should be able something like that!

Mike

studevic
09-11-2006, 07:00 PM
hi , this same problem happened to me a while ago, I bought a good pair of vice grips ,locked it onto the top of the valve spring and slowly rotated the lot around and around while spraying with some sort of fine oil, after a few minutes the valve and sring popped up, added a upper cylinder oil to the fuel tank and took it for a drive, no problems since, give it a go its a lot easier than pulling the head, regards from roger.

R.A.Jennings

Roscomacaw
09-11-2006, 07:44 PM
You've got the valve cover off, now take a small hammer and tap on that valve a bit. You might get lucky and have it pop back up. Once it's up, squirt some good penetrant into the spring's coils liberally. Then give it a bit of time to (hopefully) creep down the valve guide. Then with the cover still off, bump the engine around with the starter and see if that valve goes down and returns like it ought to.
If the hammer tapping doesn't get it, you could also use a flat-blade screwdriver against the spring's coil to see if you can pop it up. Then do the penetrant trick as I said.[:I]

Miscreant adrift in
the BerStuda Triangle!!

1957 Transtar 1/2ton
1960 Larkvertible V8
1958 Provincial wagon
1953 Commander coupe

sbca96
09-12-2006, 01:06 AM
Dick,

You got my number, and my email .. dont be afraid to use it. Or at
least shoot me an email telling me to check a post you made. The info
you got is good, but its also possible that a valve was hit by the
piston. You wont know until you can run the engine, and do a check
of the compression. I had this happen with a set of rebuilt heads!
In my case (and most likely in yours too) there was nothing wrong
with the valve after. I would suggest using a brass hammer on that
valve, not a hardened steel hammer against your hardened valve stem.
In a pinch, try a plastic dead blow hammer, or a piece of wood, but
make sure you dont leave any wood chips behind! I have torn down
Studebakers since I was about 11 years old ... so there is a closer
"shop" then Oakland. If there is any room between the coils, than you
can just use a thin screwdriver, and move the umbrella seal up from
the valve guide. Squirt some "PB Blaster" onto the stem above the
valve guide, let it soak. If you are lucky, the next time you check
it, the valve might magically be unstuck. PB Blaster is amazing!!

Tom

Mike Van Veghten
09-13-2006, 02:48 PM
Don

Don't forget to have a shop clean up the id of the guide (or replace as required) before you stick ANY valve back in there!!

Mike

starlightchamp
09-13-2006, 02:53 PM
Thank you all !!! I have soaked the valve stem with PB Blaster and
left to let it do its thing for a few days. Bought a plastic faced hammer to
use on it this week end along with the screwdriver trick. Will also try the
method from "down under" with the vice-grips. SBCA96 has offered to help
if I must remove the head-he is local to me. Again I say this forum is the best
with fine gentlemen !

...Dick

1950 Champion Starlight
1963 Hawk GT
Santa Barbara
CA

sbca96
09-18-2006, 03:36 PM
Whats the latest on this? Any luck?

Tom

PackardV8
09-18-2006, 08:31 PM
One thing not heretofore mentioned is the old Italian tuneup. If he has turned it over enough to take a compression test, whatever damage of hitting a piston isn't likely, or won't be worsened. If it were mine, I would take it out and wind it up, back off, wind it up again until it decided to let go. Getting it hot and hammered will usually free a stuck valve. Not getting run hard often is why they stick.

thnx, jv.

PackardV8

N8N
09-18-2006, 08:55 PM
I like the way PackardV8 thinks. I try to follow that advice often :) It's actually good for carbon buildup, too - a couple runs of that followed by some water down the carb (seriously! or GM top engine cleaner, if you feel like buying something) will do wonders for a pinging engine.

yeah, that's it, I'm decarbonizing, officer :)

nate

(can't wait to try it with the R1 <G>)

--
55 Commander Starlight
http://home.comcast.net/~njnagel

Dick Steinkamp
09-18-2006, 09:02 PM
quote:Originally posted by PackardV8
whatever damage of hitting a piston isn't likely, or won't be worsened.


I don't think the Stude V8 is an "interference motor". That is, I don't believe the valves are capable of hitting the pistons under any conditions.

http://thenobot.org/images/s2d/s2d_01.jpg

N8N
09-18-2006, 09:17 PM
Is that also true of an R1? I was thinking that with the flat tops that might be an issue. Did not intentionally mis-time my engine to check, so my curiosity is still unsatisfied :)

nate

--
55 Commander Starlight
http://home.comcast.net/~njnagel

blackhawk
09-18-2006, 11:03 PM
quote:Originally posted by Dick Steinkamp


quote:Originally posted by PackardV8
whatever damage of hitting a piston isn't likely, or won't be worsened.
I don't think the Stude V8 is an "interference motor". That is, I don't believe the valves are capable of hitting the pistons under any conditions.I had a 224 CID V8 in my '61 Champ pickup for several years. One evening on the way home some teeth stripped on the fiber timing gear. The pistons bent a couple valves. So, it can happen, even with the stock dished pistons. Dale

Roscomacaw
09-18-2006, 11:08 PM
Yeah, I bent a stuck valve on a 259 once. [xx(]

Miscreant adrift in
the BerStuda Triangle!!

1957 Transtar 1/2ton
1960 Larkvertible V8
1958 Provincial wagon
1953 Commander coupe

Dick Steinkamp
09-18-2006, 11:09 PM
I stand corrected. Thanks, Dale.


http://thenobot.org/images/s2d/s2d_01.jpg

sbca96
09-19-2006, 02:48 AM
Dick replied to me by Email today - with a photo, maybe some more
input will help him out - here is what he said :

Tom,

Yesterday my son helped me to free the exhaust valve. We removed the rocker arm assembly
to get at the spring better and after working PB Blaster and a screw driver in the spring coils
it popped back up. Then we noticed the valve pushrod was loose at the bottom so pulled the
intake manifold and lifter valley cover off. There laying next to the socket was the lifter !
The bottom of the lifter did not appear damaged and the lifter rod ends also looked OK.
I cleaned a lot of the congealed oil grunge out of the valley. Ordered new gaskets from SI today.
I have the intake manifold /Carbuerator now in my garage. Brought it back to clean and paint.
One can compress the valve now with heel of hand about a quarter inch but I would like
to get it compressed all the way a few times to see if it still sticks before assembling
next week. How to do this?

I have not given the rod a "roll test" to see if bent-need to do that. I hope the cam is OK after
banging the free pushrod around while I was testing. Also , why did lifter escape from socket?

Hope you get your miseries worked out on pump, headlight gasket etc.

Cheers for Studebakers-even sick ones!
...Dick

Here is the photo :

http://hometown.aol.com/sbca96/images/Lifter.jpg

Tom

sbca96
09-19-2006, 02:51 AM
This was my reply to him :

I guess its possible for the lifter to come out of the lifter bore if
there isnt valve spring pressure on the pushrod, though I have never
heard of that happening. If the pushrod was able to hit the cam lobe,
it is possible that the lobe could be nicked. If that happens then
it could cause an eventual lobe failure. All this is "coulds". I would
suggest it be inspected, as best you can, through a full revolution.
Look for any signs of dings or scratches. If you see any, then there
could be some problems down the road - its hard to say. If it were me,
I would make sure that its smooth, any marks are cleaned with emery
cloth, and put some assembly lube (cam breakin lube) on the lifter and
the cam. When you start the engine, run it like a break in - after you
confirm everything is operating correctly. That might "seat" the
lifter even with slight damage from the pushrod.

The only "easy" way to be able to move the valve up and down to work
in the PB Blaster would be to remove the spring and keeper and then
move it by "hand" (vicegrips?). You have to make sure that the piston
is all the way UP, so if the valve was to fall into the head, it will
not end up IN the bottom of the cylinder (not good). Somewhere I have
a tool to hold the valve, & I have an in car spring compresser. You
can use a spring clip through the valve keeper groove to make sure you
dont drop the valve through the guide as mentioned above. Other then
that way, you would need to install the rocker arms, and then pry the
rocker UP to force the valve down. Any other ways of doing this might
cause the valve stem to be bent.

Anyone have any other thoughts on this?

Tom

DEEPNHOCK
09-19-2006, 08:44 AM
Just make sure to put that cylinders piston at TDC so the valve won't fall in if you accidentally knock the valve stem keepers off hitting it with a hammer. The stuck valve is what bent your pushrod and allowed everything to come apart. Probably better that it did. One thing I would make sure to do (if the valve free's up and it appears the heads won't be coming off) is to remove the rear block plugs and rod out the rear cooling jackets (and the whole block if possible). You might have a buildup of crud at the back of the block that might make the coolant flow erratic and a hot spot in the head might show up. Kind of a longshot considering it was #3 that gave you trouble, but something to consider for good maintenance.
Jeff[8D]



quote:Originally posted by starlightchamp

Finally,after hours of troubleshooting the ignition to cure rough
running without success, I did a compression check. Seven ctlinders were a 160 PSi,
unfotunatley #3 was ZERO! Removed valve cover and the valve spring
on what I think is the exhaust valve (fouth from front,drivers side)
was stuck open. The valve spring appears fully compressed and not
broken, although my old eyes could be wrong. What to do?
I'm 76 and not really strong enough to tear down an engine and the
nearest Studebaker repair place is 400 miles away in Oakland Ca.
Any tricks to do that might free the valve ? All help,suggestions greatly appreciated.
Car is a 63 Hawk GT with 389 vanilla engine.
I tried to post a photo but failed as usual-
...Dick Curtis

1950 Champion Starlight
1963 Hawk GT
Santa Barbara
CA


http://i77.photobucket.com/albums/j54/deepnhock/Jeff%20Rice%20Studebaker%20Pictures/1937StudebakerCoupeExpressJeffRicee.jpg

DEEPNHOCK at Gmail.com
[u]Homeless 'til Tomorrow!</u>
'37 Coupe Express (never ending project)
'37 Coupe Express Trailer (project)
'61 Hawk (project)
http://community.webshots.com/user/deepnhock

sbca96
09-20-2006, 12:24 PM
Nobody else? Come on guys, check the thread again. I wasnt expecting
the pushrod issue!

Tom

1956 Hawk
09-20-2006, 04:35 PM
For compressing the spring if the rocker shaft is still in the car you can use one of these:
http://store.summitracing.com/partdetail.asp?part=MAN%2D41870&N=700+400049+314027+115&autoview=sku
http://static.summitracing.com/global/images/prod/norm/man-41870_w_m.jpg
As far as the cam, lifter, etc. goes as long as nothing is visably bent or damaged it should hold up okay. Hard to say without seeing the parts.
David

starlightchamp
09-20-2006, 05:03 PM
Thanks again for the help. I think I'll shop locally for the spring compressor.
They wanted a $10.00 handling charge to buy the $23.00 compressor. I think
even with cal sales tax. I can do better.
...Dick

1950 Champion Starlight
1963 Hawk GT
Santa Barbara
CA

sbca96
09-20-2006, 05:17 PM
If you want to compress the spring to remove it, you are MORE then
welcome to borrow my on-the-car spring compresser. If you want to
compress the spring WITH the valve like the rocker does, then thats
a different story. It might be worth while to remove the spring, and
the valve seal, than you can gain access directly to the stem. That
will allow you to really get the PB Blaster in there & work the valve
up and down - even turning it - which if held up to the seat, might
tell you if its bent. The only thing to make sure, is that the piston
is up so that if you "drop" the valve, you dont lose it!! If you
start with that piston UP all the way, then you can turn the engine
a little to lower the piston and give more "playing" room to move the
valve up and down. Let me know if I need to throw it in the trunk!;)

Tom

Roscomacaw
09-20-2006, 05:18 PM
I responded to his other thread about the pushrod. He said that he extracted the rod after removing the rockers and my experience has been that the suction of the oil will make the lifter cling to the rod when you pull it up. Then you've got the lifters laying there - out of their bores. Not a big deal so long as they don't tumble around in the valley and get mixed up as to which one goes in what bore. And it's important to keep THE same lifter in the bore it's been living with.[:0]

Miscreant adrift in
the BerStuda Triangle!!

1957 Transtar 1/2ton
1960 Larkvertible V8
1958 Provincial wagon
1953 Commander coupe

sbca96
09-20-2006, 05:41 PM
It was my understanding that the rocker and pushrod were still in and
the lifter was out of the bore. Since the valve spring wasnt pushing
on the pushrod, it seems that the cam knocked the lifter out! No??

Tom

Roscomacaw
09-20-2006, 06:54 PM
Starlight wrote: " I did pull up on the rod several times since it was drifting from the rocker arm. I think you are right on in that's how it escaped the socket."

I don't think a cam lobe would kick that lifter out of it's bore. Can't say absolutely as I've never seen it happen.

Miscreant adrift in
the BerStuda Triangle!!

1957 Transtar 1/2ton
1960 Larkvertible V8
1958 Provincial wagon
1953 Commander coupe

sbca96
09-20-2006, 08:34 PM
Oh .. I didnt realize there was another thread!! I thought you meant
he posted it on here. I try to keep each project on a continuous
thread updated when there is new info. I apologize, you had info that
I was not aware of. Yes, I most certainly have had a lifter come out
of a lifter bore from the suction created at the mirror finish round
tip/concave bore in the lifter. I learned to lift slightly, then move
the pushrod a little back and forth while turning it, and usually the
lifter will let go and fall back on the cam lobe.

Tom

JDP
09-20-2006, 09:18 PM
BTW, that Summit tool won't work on a Studebaker, but you can make one. I used a piece of a bumper brace and drilled a hole in it to use on the big rocker bolt. (use a spare because you may bend the bolt)

http://stude.com/sig.jpg
Studebaker On The Net
http://stude.com
Studebaker News Group
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.autos.studebaker
Arnold Md.
65 Sports Sedan(sold)
64 Daytona HT
63 R2 4 speed GT Hawk
63 GT Hawk
63 Avanti R1/AC
63 Avanti R2/4 speed
63 Daytona HT
63 Lark 2 dr.
62 Lark 2 door
62 GT(parts car)
60 Lark convert
60 Hawk
52 Starliner(sold)
51 Commander

starlightchamp
09-20-2006, 10:34 PM
Hi Tom.

I am sorry I posted the second cry for help on the General forum. It was stupid of me
but I thought the "stuck valve thread" was history--learned my lesson. I don't need the
spring compressor at present but swell of you to offer to loan yours. My plan, when I get the new gaskets , is to go to Santa Ynez and replace the rocker structure and rod, throw an old
towel over the lifter valley, and turn the engine slowly with the starter while my son
watches the #3 exhaust rocker to see if the valve still sticks. If ,so then I will try more lubricant. If this fails, then I will buy a spring compressor since it is needed and a useful tool
for other projects.


...Dick

1950 Champion Starlight
1963 Hawk GT
Santa Barbara
CA

sbca96
09-21-2006, 03:26 AM
OK ... no problem. Sounds like a plan. Let me know if I can help.

Tom

1956 Hawk
09-21-2006, 12:06 PM
Actually the tool I posted from summit is the same as the one I use on my cars.
David

John Kirchhoff
09-22-2006, 05:32 PM
If you want to move the valve up and down to loosen things up and make sure it isn't going to stick, use a piece of hardwood or even the end of a wooden handled hammer. Put the wooden end on the keeper and you can whack the end of it with another hammer as lightly and as quickly as you want. You can always start thumping it a bit harder to compress the spring even more. I'm not real hot on the idea of beating one piece of hardened metal with another. That's asking for trouble the way my luck goes.