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Kdancy
01-11-2012, 06:01 AM
Starting to do work on the 58 Packard Hawk that my friend purchased and he has decided to do more to the car than originally thought. He wants me to paint it red. I was looking for colors and found this PH in Hemmings. Is this the only red they made that year? I was thinking that there was a Maroon red as well.
In looking at the engine compartment of the Hemmings car, looks like they put a remote oil filter in. Ist the SC tension spring supposed to be the same color as the SC?
http://www.hemmings.com/classifieds/dealer/packard/hawk/1183460.html
We have the engine and tranny out and will pull the heads and just do a general check and do over of anything needing attention. Have sent the SC off for complete rebuild and will pull the hydrovac off for send off as well. (who do you guys recommend).
Have a Turner dual MC kit that I will change out to and will put in new brake and gas lines. Bought a carb kit from Daytona Parts company and will rebuild the carb while off. Probably pull the gas tank and clean and coat it.
Will start pulling the chrome and stainless trim off today for polishing and re-plating.

BobPalma
01-11-2012, 06:42 AM
Kerry: They had two "reds" in 1958.

The Hemmings car is most likely Parade Red, which you would describe as a traditional "Fire-Engine" red.

The other, maroonish-purplish color was Shadowtone Red.

See my discussion in Post #4 to this earlier thread:

http://forum.studebakerdriversclub.com/showthread.php?57341-Eye-Candy-12-15-11-58-Packard-hardtop-(and-Commander-4dr)&highlight=shadowtone

Yes, they've put a remote, spin-on oil filter in the Hemmings car.

The supercharger belt tensioner would not be orange, but the supercharger wouldn't be orange; it would be black. BP

jclary
01-11-2012, 07:12 AM
Starting to do work on the 58 Packard Hawk that my friend purchased and he has decided to do more to the car than originally thought....

You can't be serious! .....Who among us has ever encountered this situation????:rolleyes:

Are you folks planning a dead-nuts stock restoration, or do you want to make it close but upgrade for drivability?

As rare as these birds are...I think that only the most anal in the crowd would be familiar enough with the minute details to care.

Good luck with the project!:):cool::)

Kdancy
01-11-2012, 08:19 AM
John, Ain't that the truth!!
it won't be a dead nuts restoration as we are not doing a frame off.
Here are the three reds we've found and are considering,
Mazda color (volcanic red)
Parade Red Studebaker color
Shadowtone Red (I think)

The Mazda one is very nice!
??

hausdok
01-11-2012, 09:58 AM
Hi Kerry,

As others have said, the two "red" colors available that year were the Parade Red, which we all see as a traditional red, and the Shadowtown Red Metallic shown on the '58 Packard hardtop in the right hand photo of the examples you posted above. If your friend is interested in "correctness", I don't think that the almost purple, plum-color shown on the Studebaker in that other thread is a correct color for Packard that year. It might have been for Studes that year.

Most of us would term the Shadowtone Red Metallic as being more of a maroon than a red. I've mostly seen the shadowtone red used as an accent color on the roof but I do have one or two photos of at least one car here somewhere which had been painted all that color. I can forward them to you if you'd like me to so that your friend can see what the car looks like when it's all that same color.

According to the Packard Club paint page for 1958, which you can find at the link below, Shadowtone Red Metallic is Dupont-Duco paint #1069-BCS; however, according to a note on the chart, there isn't any match available for the stock order number or mixing formula number for that color.

Here's the link to the Packard Club 1958 Color guide in their archive: http://www.packardclub.org/html/1958paint.htm

If your friend might be interested in something that's close to the Shadowtone Red Metallic but is slightly off, have him check out the Garnet Red used on the 1969 Camaro. If he googles it he'll find lots of photos of cars painted in that color.

Mike O'Handley
Kenmore, Washington
hausdok@msn.com

P.S.

I probably resemble John's remark ;)

hausdok
01-11-2012, 10:11 AM
Oh,

Forgot about the other color questions. My P.H. was owned by one guy. He was a tractor mechanic and it was his daily driver until he died. Polishing the car and dinking around with painting things were not exactly his forte; in fact the paint was completely worn off the top of the front fenders from the thousands of times he'd bent into the engine compartment and rubbed his belt across the top of the fender without fender covers. The rust there was rubbed to a hard shiny brown like you'd see on an antique flintlock that had been intentionally browned (but I digress). My block, intake manifold and pan is, as far as I can tell, painted silver. the valve covers are black, the air cleaner is black, the supercharger is black, and the generator and brack booster are painted black. I think I've seen the brake booster painted silver or bead blasted and left clear on other cars; but if my car is any example it was black. If you'd like, I can send you an email with copies of every engine compartment photo for a P.H. that I have. I've got a bunch of 'em from both non-restored and restored P.H.s. Eastwood has some ceramic paints that would be just the ticket.

Hope this helps.

Mike O'Handley
Kenmore, Washington
hausdok@msn.com

hausdok
01-11-2012, 10:19 AM
OK,

According to the Packard Club engine color page located here: http://www.packardclub.org/html/engine-colors.htm the engine colors are "1958 All Engines - Silver (block and pan) with black valve covers except the Packard Hawk that had the same gold "Packard Super 289" stickers as all the '57's. "

Mike O'Handley
Kenmore, Washington
hausdok@msn.com

Dwain G.
01-11-2012, 10:53 AM
If you are changing to a dual master cylinder, you won't really be able to use the Hydravac since it only has a single outlet. Some that have done this powered just the front brakes. With the front disc conversion most owners say they don't even need a booster. The only problem is the power brake pedal is designed for about a 4 to 1 ratio, while non-power cars have a 7 to 1 ratio.

Kdancy
01-11-2012, 04:38 PM
If you are changing to a dual master cylinder, you won't really be able to use the Hydravac since it only has a single outlet. Some that have done this powered just the front brakes. With the front disc conversion most owners say they don't even need a booster. The only problem is the power brake pedal is designed for about a 4 to 1 ratio, while non-power cars have a 7 to 1 ratio.

I've done a 57 GH conversion using the Turner disc brake system and to be honest, I liked the original hydravac set up better. I also changed the pedal to a non power one. I will try the dual MC conversion and just run the hydravac to the front as some others have done.

Kdancy
01-11-2012, 04:40 PM
OK,

According to the Packard Club engine color page located here: http://www.packardclub.org/html/engine-colors.htm the engine colors are "1958 All Engines - Silver (block and pan) with black valve covers except the Packard Hawk that had the same gold "Packard Super 289" stickers as all the '57's. "

Mike O'Handley
Kenmore, Washington
hausdok@msn.com
Mike, thanks for all the info. Everything helps. One question I have is what color is the front grill mesh supposed to be, I can't really see the color in any pictures I've looked at. This one is painted black but It looks to have been painted gold at one time.

Dwain G.
01-11-2012, 07:09 PM
I've done a 57 GH conversion using the Turner disc brake system and to be honest, I liked the original hydravac set up better. I also changed the pedal to a non power one. I will try the dual MC conversion and just run the hydravac to the front as some others have done.
I regret not adding in my first post that I don't advise or endorse plumbing the brake lines that way even though some have done it.

hausdok
01-11-2012, 09:43 PM
Hi Kerry,

The one on my PH is,...well, what's left of the paint on it, is flat black. Have you climbed into the trunk and looked up under those fins yet and tapped on the underside of those rear fenders beneath the fins to see whether that steel is viable yet?

The fins are screwed in and then the front is leaded in. I found a ton of heavy surface rust and some rot holes under mine.

I was ponding this whole hydrovac single circuit thing today and wondered why one couldn't simply mount a dual circuit master cylinder sideways up under the dash in a custom-made bracket and mate it to a hydraulic slave cylinder like one used for hydraulic clutches secured into the opposite end of the bracket.

Push on the brake pedal and the hydrovac activates the slave cylinder and the push-rod on the slave cylinder sends a pushrod into that dual MC and activates the brakes. You could redo the brake lines so that from under the hood, and when you glance underneath the car, they all look original; however, you route the lines up through the floor and beneath the carpet under a sheetmetal chase that protects them and then you join them to a proportioning valve below that dual MC beneath the dash.

Do it right and you could keep the original brakes all around, keep the hydrovac, even keep the original master bolted to the side of the frame under the car. It would look absolutely stock but probably have better braking performance because you'd be able to adjust the PV to balance the brakes front and rear better. Back when I was working on Toyotas in the 70's Toyota used to use some small slave cylinders to activate the clutches on Toy Land Cruisers that would probably be just about a perfect size for this Rube Goldberg idea.

Mike O'Handley
Kenmore, Washington
hausdok@msn.com

Mike
01-12-2012, 04:01 AM
At the risk of resembling John's remark...
You do realize that someone has put a four barrel carb on this car; don't you? That's why the oil filter is relocated to the fender. The original setup would have been a two barrel in an aluminum carb enclosure, with the oil filter bolted to the rear of the enclosure, in front of the distributor. There's a good drawing of all the supercharger parts in the '55 -'58 chassis parts catalog. Hood, front fenders, and dash parts for the Packard Hawk are in there, too.
The four barrel has the label riveted to the air horn that says it's a special sealed carb; but the fuel inlet has been relocated. If it was a real R2 carb that's too bad. The carb "hat" looks like it's from a Lark or Hawk R2.
By the way, there was a Packard version of the badge on the supercharger. I think SI has a reproduction. That looks like their Stude reproduction on it now.
The domed nuts on the supercharger look out of place. They were used on the valve covers only, I think.
There's a strange remark about the air filter, at the Vintage Motor Cars Site. They say it's been converted to a modern paper element, but can be changed back. It was always a paper element. That might not be the right one.
Mike M.

hausdok
01-12-2012, 04:19 AM
Yeah,

There's a 4 barrel on the red car at the link above; but the car that Kerry is working on has the original 2 barrel.

Mike O'Handley
Kenmore, Washington
hausdok@msn.com

Mike
01-12-2012, 07:08 AM
Thanks for pointing that out, Mike. Now I get it. The "Hemmings Car", with pictures at the link, isn't the car he is working on. I wondered why no one else pointed out the four barrel!
Mike M.

hausdok
01-12-2012, 06:40 PM
Hi Kerry,

Got some info for you. I was browsing some old Studebaker Packard service bulletins when I found a paint mix formula for Shadowtone Red Metallic. If you turn this over to a good paint shop, they should be able to mix you up a test swatch batch to show the car owner.

Hope this helps.

Service Bulletin #331 November 1957
Paint formulations - 1958 Studebaker and Packard Passenger Cars and 3E Series Truck Models

JonesDabney Shadowtone Red Metallic Baking Enamel #1069 - BCS (Thheir #58-4444)

% Pigment Composition

56.0 Newport Maroon
2.0 Indo Blue
33.0 Burnt Sienna
7.0 Aluminum
___________________
100%

% Vehicle Composition

75.0 Alkyd Resin
25.0 Melamine
___________________
100%

Non volatile 46%

Mike O'Handley
Kenmore, Washington
hausdok@msn.com

RareBird
01-12-2012, 07:14 PM
My Packard Hawk is going to be stripped completely next week. I too have pondered as to which color to paint it. I had wanted one of these since 1975 (not many cared for them back then either) but not a beige one, finnally got mine 3 1/2 years ago. According to Mike Williams - our Packard Hawk Guru - there were on 2 painted Shadowtone red with a beige roof. If you search for Joe Parson you will find his 58 Golden that he painted those colors. Stunning! I have downloded formula for my body shop and am eagarly waiting to transform my ugly Catfish

hausdok
01-12-2012, 07:43 PM
Hi J.D.

That's great. Hope it turns out to be everything that you hope for.

Speaking of Mike Williams - whatever happened to him? I'd heard he had a site with all kinds of good information and a registration list of P.H. owners, but it doesn't pull up anymore. I've asked around about his Packard Hawk.com site here and there but nobody seems to know what the deal is.

Mike O'Handley
Kenmore, Washington
hausdok@msn.com

BobPalma
01-12-2012, 09:07 PM
My Packard Hawk is going to be stripped completely next week. I too have pondered as to which color to paint it. I had wanted one of these since 1975 (not many cared for them back then either) but not a beige one, finnally got mine 3 1/2 years ago. According to Mike Williams - our Packard Hawk Guru - there were on 2 painted Shadowtone red with a beige roof. If you search for Joe Parson you will find his 58 Golden that he painted those colors. Stunning! I have downloded formula for my body shop and am eagarly waiting to transform my ugly Catfish

Geeze, J.D, I'm glad you posted the rest of that! Matthew Burnette just posted that he was getting a PH and was going to strip it for parts and I put two and two together and.....<GGG> BP

hausdok
01-13-2012, 03:59 AM
Hi Kerry,

Re. the Shadowtone Red Metallic, I was poking around on the net tonight and I stumbled across a photo of an almost maroon P.H.

Is this color (http://www.google.com/imgres?q=packard+hawk&hl=en&sa=X&rls=com.microsoft:en-us:IE-Address&biw=1643&bih=826&tbm=isch&prmd=imvns&tbnid=yilpadNqDNF9-M:&imgrefurl=http://hooniverse.com/2011/10/01/hooniverse-what-were-they-thinking-weekend-the-1958-packard-hawk/&docid=AVEYQ30aku735M&imgurl=http://hooniverse.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/2094112890089697034PWbAGM_ph.jpg&w=700&h=327&ei=v_4PT9ePMeLYiQLSjb3IDQ&zoom=1) shadowtone Red Metallic?

Mike O'Handley
Kenmore, Washington
hausdok@msn.com

P.S.

I've got more pictures of that car saved on my hard drive but I don't want to post them here lest I violate someone's copyright or site policy. If you think your client would like to see them, I'll email them to you.

hausdok
01-13-2012, 10:07 AM
Kerry,

I did a little more poking around on the net. How does your client feel about a dark green color? This old color photo (http://www.google.com/imgres?q=packard+hawk&start=228&hl=en&sa=X&rls=com.microsoft:en-us:IE-Address&biw=1643&bih=826&tbm=isch&prmd=imvns&tbnid=TTJvtYIAvTQcsM:&imgrefurl=http://www.ctseaportcarclub.com/1973-78VintageNorwalk/VintageNorwalk3.htm&docid=2Vkjt3ppexD6lM&imgurl=http://www.ctseaportcarclub.com/1973-78VintageNorwalk/NOR_0143.JPG&w=720&h=507&ei=JlQQT6CfEaOUiQKmhNG7DQ&zoom=1&chk=sbg)of a P.H. is the first example I've ever seen of a P.H. painted with what looks like Glen Green. That was an official 1958 Studebaker/Packard color but I'd never seen it on a P.H. before. It looks like the owner dressed the car up a little more by accent painting the hood scoop (Too bad he didn't wash it before he took the picture).

Mike O'Handley
Kenmore, Washington
hausdok@msn.com

Kdancy
01-13-2012, 11:54 AM
Mike,
I think he has decided on the Volcano Red which is actually a Mazda color. He wanted something that would stand out a little more and after looking at all the pictures we could find, kept coming back to that color.

studegary
01-13-2012, 02:30 PM
Mike,
I think he has decided on the Volcano Red which is actually a Mazda color. He wanted something that would stand out a little more and after looking at all the pictures we could find, kept coming back to that color.

He doesn't think that a Packard Hawk will stand out enough on its own <G>?

My friend, that owned the restoration shop where I worked PT, owned a Packard Hawk. He restored it in the origial light color. It won an SDC First that way. He was not happy with the car becuse the trim did not stand out. He completely re-did the car in the maroon color. He got either a Sr. First or BOS then. The car now is owned by a NJ couple and it resides in either NJ or upstate NY.

packardHawk58
01-14-2012, 01:11 AM
http://i971.photobucket.com/albums/ae194/packardhawk58/015-1.jpg

Here is the Packard badge decal for the S/C that Mike mentioned in the previous text.

hausdok
01-14-2012, 02:16 AM
Brian,

That's beautiful work. Lets see some more - wider shots - please!

Mike O'Handley
Kenmore, Washington
hausdok@msn.com

hausdok
01-14-2012, 02:18 AM
Kerry,

I know that you said he's going with the Mazda color; but while poking around on the Trombinocars site I found some photos of a PH in Shadowtone Red Metallic in the Ft. Lauderdale auto museum - don't know when. Anyone else with a '58 Hawk might like to see more photos of one in that color.

http://www.trombinoscar.com/packard/pk5805.html

Mike O'Handley
Kenmore, Washington
hausdok@msn.com

packardHawk58
01-14-2012, 05:28 AM
http://i971.photobucket.com/albums/ae194/packardhawk58/58%20packard/016-1.jpghttp://i971.photobucket.com/albums/ae194/packardhawk58/58%20packard/017-1.jpghttp://i971.photobucket.com/albums/ae194/packardhawk58/58%20packard/carpics012.jpg

Here you go Mike, some more shots from my resto.
Oil filler cap is wrong, trying to obtain an original.

Kdancy
01-14-2012, 07:11 AM
Kerry,

I know that you said he's going with the Mazda color; but while poking around on the Trombinocars site I found some photos of a PH in Shadowtone Red Metallic in the Ft. Lauderdale auto museum - don't know when. Anyone else with a '58 Hawk might like to see more photos of one in that color.

http://www.trombinoscar.com/packard/pk5805.html

Does the TT posi emblem go on the PH? This one has a small placard on the dash-

Mike O'Handley
Kenmore, Washington
hausdok@msn.com

Does the TT emblem go on the PH decklid?

Kdancy
01-14-2012, 07:13 AM
Brian- is the carb box just bead blasted?
Thanks!

hausdok
01-14-2012, 01:10 PM
Hi Kerry,

Though I've seen it in lots of photos of Hawks, I'm not so sure it's supposed to be there. It's not shown in the illustration for Models 57, 58 Typical Rear Compartment or Trunk and Lid - Body Symbol K on Page 343 of the 57-58 Packard Body Parts Catalog; and on Page 347, whre the parts numbers are derived from, I found the following (Look at what I've underlined and bolded).

Illust #2330-79.........1326174wp NAME PLATE, "Twin Traction" -- except K9..........aLL 58.......1 per car

It does show the large Hawk emblem with clip - one per car, but no twin traction or TT.

I've got got hundreds of photographs of unrestored Hawks from all angles and copies of 1957 and 1958 color ads for the PH. I don't see it in any of those either. These show the large Hawk emblem directly over the lid lock and the Packard script at the lower right corner of the lid. They show the Hawk emblem and the Packard script on each rear fin and the Hawk emblem surrounded by a silver ring above silver Packard lettering on the nose. Nothing else; no gold lettering, no TT emblems, no gold circle around the hood emblem, etc..

Mike O'Handley
Kenmore, Washington
hausdok@msn.com

hausdok
01-14-2012, 01:20 PM
Brian- is the carb box just bead blasted?
Thanks!Not Brian. Hope you guys won't mind my butting into this one.

Because it's so soft, my plan was to soda blast mine; and then, to prevent it from oxidizing and keep it fresh looking, to coat it with Silver Carb Renew II from Eastwood. Cat#12868Z ($14.99 per can). I'd thought about using Aluma Blast but Carb Renew is formulated to resist oil and gasoline.

Had also thought about using Eastwood's Diamond Clear, but I don't know if S-P clear coated their aluminum engine components or not. When I worked for Toyota back in the 70's, everything made from cast aluminum or pot metal was clear coated with a nice semi-gloss finish to prevent it from oxidizing. It looked great until you cleaned the part with engine cleaner or sprayed carb cleaner on it and then it would bubble up and blister off and the metal would turn a dull dingy gray without it.

Hope this helps.

Mike O'Handley
Kenmore, Washington
hausdok@msn.com

hausdok
01-14-2012, 01:59 PM
Brian,

Thanks a lot for posting those photos. It gives me a benchmark to strive for.

Re. the engine finish, the only thing I wonder about is the color choice for the fan and the pulley and can cooler for the generator. My memory is kind of dim on this, but in my mind back in those days the cooling fans were painted semi-gloss engine black and the generator pulley and can coolers were shiny and silvery - Cadmium plated perhaps? We didn't have anything to duplicate the look of cadmium plating in the shop in those days; so, when we'd undercut and turn a generator armature, replace the bearings and brushes and reassemble we'd use silver aluminum paint to try and make those parts look pretty again after going through the parts cleaner. I was always disappointed with the results but I don't ever remember painting can coolers black - at least that's my memory of it.

I don't have a lot to verify any of that. I've got a lot of photos of restored and unrestored PH engine compartments but most of these have had stuffed yanked out and painted either flat black or aluminum silver over the years so it's hard to figure out which is the original. The graphics from the 1957 San Franscisco Examiner pullout show a black cooling fan and black pulleys on the crank, water pump and supercharger but the generator pulley and can cooler in the photo are lighter in color in the graphic. I don't know how accurate that is though, 'cuz it shows the valve covers as something other than black. Sincer that same engine was used in other models, maybe another model used a differently colored valve cover that year.

The Packard Club site isn't much help either. In the repaint guide in their archives they list:

1958 - All Engines - Silver (block and pan) with black valve covers except the Packard Hawk that had the same gold "Packard Super 289" stickers as all the '57's.


Anyone else remember differently?

Mike O'Handley
Kenmore, Washington
hausdok@msn.com

studegary
01-14-2012, 02:26 PM
The Packard supercharger stickers that are now avilable (reproduction) are correct in general appearance, but the colors are incorrect. The thing is that there are now more of the reproduction items around than original, so most people think that the reproductions are correct. I believe that the reproductions were made from a black and white picture and then colors were added. I remember a few NOS pieces around (in the 1970s).

packardHawk58
01-14-2012, 03:47 PM
Yes Kerry, it has been bead blasted, but very lightly. Mike, there are a lot of grey areas on thses cars because of the way they were built (almost hand built) with what colours should be what. Unfortuately there is no hand book like the National Corvette Restorers Society to restore a car. My car was a two owner car with original paint, I bought it from the second owner who bought it in 65 and clocked up only two thousand miles from 65 to 2007. So i am restoring it with what I have documented with the teardown on what it should be, but in saying that I have painted the floor pan body colour because it is such a good example ( no rust) even though it should have body deadener on it. The fan blades came on the car, but they don't look correct, I have never seen this type of blades on a Studebaker ( any body like to comment)?
Gary, you are right about the repo stuff, that's the way the car resto's are going, unless you can buy a dead original car with all the parts on it that you can recondition it becomes a replacement resto, you can almost buy a whole midyear Corvette in parts now, right down to the body shell and build that car up via the NCRS handbook and nobody would know, so what's original.
The PH's are pretty basic cars, they only have semi flat black (there are no differant variants in black apart from gloss ) silver and some parts are left raw. Please correct me if I am wrong for i would like my car to be as close as it should be from when it left the factory, the only thing I can't stand is the colour of the trim, it's going to be white leather, the other factory option.
I agree with you Mike on the TT emblem of all the original PH's i have seen inluding mine, I have not seen one with a TT emblem on the trunklid unless it has been put on by the owner.
Commenting on the original thread about his choice of colour for the car he is restoring, the late model paint systems in 2 stage only use pearls to match up their metalics these days and they are not even near the original paint systems, if that's what you want then that's fine but I paint my cars in Acylic Lacquer like the old systems and they match up a lot better to the original paint in lustre and finish. I know it is getting hard for you guys to buy this paint since it was banned years ago because of it's lead content especially in C.A.

Kdancy
01-21-2012, 10:56 AM
Kerry,

I know that you said he's going with the Mazda color; but while poking around on the Trombinocars site I found some photos of a PH in Shadowtone Red Metallic in the Ft. Lauderdale auto museum - don't know when. Anyone else with a '58 Hawk might like to see more photos of one in that color.

http://www.trombinoscar.com/packard/pk5805.html

Mike O'Handley
Kenmore, Washington
hausdok@msn.com

Mike, I sent the chromobase color code to my paint supplier and they are going to cross it over to Matrix (paint brand I use) and make a small test batch to compare to the Mazda color. I have two headlight rims I will paint one with the shadowtone and one with the Mazda red for comparison.

Dwain G.
01-21-2012, 03:05 PM
[QUOTE The fan blades came on the car, but they don't look correct, I have never seen this type of blades on a Studebaker ( any body like to comment)?
QUOTE]

Five blade fans were standard on the Packard Hawk up to serial no. 58LS-1465, then they switched to four blades to reduce fan noise, and a baffled upper air deflector to improve cooling. These parts were available for retrofit to earlier cars.
The Florida car sure looks more like Parade Red. Shadowtone looks so dark on the paint chips, but much lighter on a car in the daylight.

http://i242.photobucket.com/albums/ff195/DwainG/shadowtone.jpg

bonehead007
01-21-2012, 03:24 PM
Have only seen the TT emblem on one Packard Hawk. They put a TT sticker above the ignition switch. When they had the meet in Lancaster there was a Packard Hawk from Texas and he had it on his . My Hawk is missing the TT sticker.