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64V-K7
06-18-2007, 09:22 AM
This past weekend, I noticed the local Tractor-Supply changed their Rotella-T containers to the ones with the new CJ formulation. Good-bye to an old friend.
OTOH, nest to it was what looked like a store brand (Black bottle) for Diesel engines and tractors, 15W40 and CI designation...

Bob Johnstone
http://www.studebaker-info.org/7168422/sig2.jpg

vegas paul
06-18-2007, 11:35 AM
Wally-Mart still has CI in gallons - sometimes on the same shlf next to the CJ. They have Rotella-T, as well as others.

Las Vegas, NV
'51 Champion Business Coupe G899965 10G-Q4-1434
http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s144/vegas_paul/1462673_2_350.jpg?t=1180041622 http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s144/vegas_paul/graciestude.jpg?t=1180041703

wagone
06-18-2007, 02:18 PM
Not ALL Walmarts carry CI-4. I spent 40 minutes searching the shelves at my local store: no Rotella-T and the ONLY CI-4 I could find was Delo-400. Rotella in the new CJ formulation was much in evidence, but not the CI. I have no experience with Delo/Chevron oils. Hope this is not a sign of things to come. And with all the talk about enthanol I'm wondering how long it will be before all fuel will include alcohol. The enthanol industry is advertising here abouts that the only fuel which should be marketed is E-85. How they think we have enough land to produce that much grain or biomass escapes me. It is one thing for Brazil to do it; quite another for the US. Brazil probably consumes five percent as much internal combustion fuels as does the US.

wagone and the Old R2 Avanti

53k
06-18-2007, 06:00 PM
quote:Originally posted by 55Prez


This past weekend, I noticed the local Tractor-Supply changed their Rotella-T containers to the ones with the new CJ formulation. Good-bye to an old friend.
OTOH, nest to it was what looked like a store brand (Black bottle) for Diesel engines and tractors, 15W40 and CI designation...

Before I could find Rotella in smaller containers I used the "store brand" 15-40. In fact I had that in the cranck case of the Avanti on the westbound 3,000 miles of the Route 66 trip.


[img=right]http://www.frontiernet.net/~thejohnsons/Forum%20signature%20pix/R-4.JPG[/img=right][img=right]http://www.frontiernet.net/~thejohnsons/Forum%20signature%20pix/64L.JPG[/img=right][img=right]http://www.frontiernet.net/~thejohnsons/Forum%20signature%20pix/64P.jpg[/img=right][img=right]http://www.frontiernet.net/~thejohnsons/Forum%20signature%20pix/53K.jpg[/img=right]Paul Johnson
'53 Commander Starliner (since 1966)
'64 Daytona Wagonaire (original owner)
'64 Daytona Convertible (2006)
Museum R-4 engine

whacker
06-18-2007, 07:04 PM
My local big box store is selling off all the CI-4 Rotella-t at $8.88 per gallon. I've been stocking up at that price. The non-closeout shelf has the new CJ formulation at the regular price.

jjones
06-18-2007, 07:28 PM
My dad used Delo 400 in our diesel tractors for over 30 years in southwestern Arizona--115+ degree temps, etc. He swore by it and as far as I know never had any oil-related problems. Seems to work fine in my 259 too but the engine only has a bit over 5,000 miles on it, so...

jj

Flat Ernie
06-18-2007, 09:15 PM
A respected engine builder I know did some independent testing - (old CI-4/CI-4+) Rotella was inconsistent with ZDDP levels - the other major diesel oils (Chevron Delo, Mobil Vac?) were much more consistent with the 800-1100ppm ZDDP.

Daddy always said, if yer gonna be dumb, you gotta be tough & I'm one tough sumbitch!

laforza47
06-19-2007, 04:08 PM
You might want to try a West Marine Store or their online catalog as they carry both Rotella T and other brands of oil that are formulated for diesel boat engines. I use an oil made by Sunoco in my 10 cylinder Man diesels. These engines are 1000HP and work much harder than any automotive engine I can think of. The Man's have non hydraulic lifters as my Studebaker and I think the oils made for marine diesels is heavy with the correct additive for a Studebaker application. Hope this helps.

64 GT Hawk

stall
06-20-2007, 07:38 PM
Our local Pep-Boys has a shelf of Rotella-T with the C1-4 designation. I bought 20 @ $8.99 each and a store employee said they had many cases left. Might want to try it.

MagikDraggin
06-21-2007, 09:25 PM
I've been reading this topic with much interest. Is all this hullabaloo simply in regards to Studebakers or for all old vintage automobiles?

Next, and I hope this is not too stupid of a question, but in perusing through some of the old posts on this subject, a comment was made that a person could continue using (for example) Pennzoil or Quaker State 10/30 or 10/40 regular motor oil and add a can of STP to it at every oil change.

Is STP still available and is this a viable alternative to messing with all the various types of diesel oils and whatever else is out there?

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v147/MagikDraggin/Other%20Stuff/IM000986-reduced.jpg?
1962 GT Hawk 4sp

Tom B
06-21-2007, 11:32 PM
This is a germain subject for any engine with flat top tappets (where they contact the cam) and without catalytic converters. The phosphorus and zink in CI-4 oils is a friction reducer for these cams. Roller cams, from the last 15 years or so don't need the friction reduction and the oil formulation has been changed.

[img=left]http://www.alink.com/personal/tbredehoft/Bothcars.jpg[/img=left]
Tom Bredehoft
'53 Commander Coupe
'60 Lark VI
'05 Legacy Ltd Wagon
All three Indiana built OD cars

hawk gt 62 rhd
06-22-2007, 02:11 PM
Shell has in Europe RIMULA super with CI classification I think it is
probably the same as ROTELLA T.

wagone
06-22-2007, 10:45 PM
I just came back from visiting a large (large for us anyway) auto parts store and while there noticed a container of Rotella-T. This particular label had both CI-4 plus And the new CJ rating on it. What is the change (again) all about to the CJ rating? On the face of it it would appear that ANY oil labelled CJ wouldn't have enough zinc to help lube the flat tappets even IF the label also said CI-4 plus. But then I may be missing the change brought about with the CJ designation.

wagone and the Old R2 Avanti

MagikDraggin
06-22-2007, 11:15 PM
You guys didn't answer my question:.....is STP still available and will adding a can to regular oil, suffice in lieu of getting diesel oil?

Karl

Tom B
06-22-2007, 11:56 PM
The Co-Operator session Tuesday at SB said "maybe". but the analysis of STP hasn't been done so they aren't sure. I asked, they answered.

[img=left]http://www.alink.com/personal/tbredehoft/Bothcars.jpg[/img=left]
Tom Bredehoft
'53 Commander Coupe
'60 Lark VI
'05 Legacy Ltd Wagon
All three Indiana built OD cars

Flat Ernie
06-23-2007, 01:08 AM
STP oil treatment says it contains ZDDP on the bottle - how much is anybody's guess. I don't know anyone who has done any testing on it.

Daddy always said, if yer gonna be dumb, you gotta be tough & I'm one tough sumbitch!

DilloCrafter
06-23-2007, 10:38 PM
I was in Tractor Supply Co. yesterday and they've got no old stock of Rotella left, only the new stuff (CJ low emissions)

I noticed their store brand, Traveller, has a 10W-40 Heavy Duty Diesel oil, rated CI. Does anyone know if this brand has enough zinc in it? The label didn't mention zinc or ZDDP specifically, only that it has "anti friction additives" or something like that. Here's the link to it at their site:

http://www.mytscstore.com/detail.asp?pcID=3&paID=1026&sonID=750&page=1&productID=27716

http://rocketdillo.com/studebaker/misc/images/Avacar-hcsdc.gif[/img=left]DilloCrafter

1955 1/2 Ton Pickup
[i]The Red-Headed Amazon
Deep in the heart of Texas

64V-K7
06-24-2007, 08:14 AM
Traveller is the brand I picked up, but presumed that since it had the CI designation, it would be sufficient.

Bob Johnstone
http://www.studebaker-info.org/7168422/sig2.jpg

cortica37
07-04-2007, 10:24 AM
Lucas oil was recommended to me by the Carquest guy as a possible anti-wear additive to address the potential lifter wear issue. I emailed them explaining that some older engines needed zinc for their flat lifters. I got the following reply:

"Our heavy duty oil stabilizer works great on flat tappets. Our product
uses a better anti-wear additive package than the zinc additive. Use 20% oil stabilizer and 80% oil."

Don't know how to verify this any further. Any comments guys?

HookedonStudies
07-04-2007, 04:04 PM
Check your local oil distributor for bulk versions of the 15W40. I am told that they have not been reformulated yet and that there was no plan to do so in the near term. (should apply to various brands - this happened to be a Shell Rotella T supplier)


55 Commander
58 Transtar
62 GT Hawk
66 Cruiser

53k
07-08-2007, 10:39 PM
I was in my local Tractor Supply store today and they had CI Rotella. Strange pricing- an end cap had one-gallon containers of Rotella 15W40 for $8.92 and 2 1/2-gallon containers for $24.56. Five one-gallon containers (five gallons total) would be $44.60. Two 2 1/2-gallon containers (also five gallons total) would be $49.12.


[img=right]http://www.frontiernet.net/~thejohnsons/Forum%20signature%20pix/R-4.JPG[/img=right][img=right]http://www.frontiernet.net/~thejohnsons/Forum%20signature%20pix/64L.JPG[/img=right][img=right]http://www.frontiernet.net/~thejohnsons/Forum%20signature%20pix/64P.jpg[/img=right][img=right]http://www.frontiernet.net/~thejohnsons/Forum%20signature%20pix/53K.jpg[/img=right]Paul Johnson
'53 Commander Starliner (since 1966)
'64 Daytona Wagonaire (original owner)
'64 Daytona Convertible (2006)
Museum R-4 engine

jbwhttail
07-08-2007, 10:50 PM
I'll reply only to the Lucas Oil question.

It has been my companies experience that Lucas Oil products meet or exceed what they promote in thier advertising. We operate a fleet of "gas" vehicles and use thier products.....

Last time I do this,I promise

Laemmle
07-16-2007, 10:27 PM
Yes,

STP contains about .13% zddp...more than enough to protect our tappets.



quote:Originally posted by MagikDraggin

I've been reading this topic with much interest. Is all this hullabaloo simply in regards to Studebakers or for all old vintage automobiles?

Next, and I hope this is not too stupid of a question, but in perusing through some of the old posts on this subject, a comment was made that a person could continue using (for example) Pennzoil or Quaker State 10/30 or 10/40 regular motor oil and add a can of STP to it at every oil change.

Is STP still available and is this a viable alternative to messing with all the various types of diesel oils and whatever else is out there?

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v147/MagikDraggin/Other%20Stuff/IM000986-reduced.jpg?
1962 GT Hawk 4sp

glen
07-16-2007, 11:02 PM
The difference in prices, Paul, all goes back to marketing!
As they generally up the price on the larger container, to
begin with, even though to us they should be cheaper. It
is natural for us to look for larger containers, so we don't
have to mess with too many smaller ones. But since the items
maybe in seperate area, as was in your case, customers may
not be aware or even see the differences in prices....which
goes back to how the store/company markets their products
and where they're placed in the store. Anymoe, we need to
make sure of what there is available and what the price
difference are, between large and not so large.

http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g204/glen_05/Daytonalurkinintheshortgrass.jpg
1964 Daytona
glen Brose
Tumbleweed Flats, AZ

steve kuiper
09-07-2007, 01:22 PM
in looking around i've found that both castrol(syntec) and valvoline still claim to be making oils with zinc for off-road applications.
castrol claims it is designed for "off road" and "classic cars" that need zinc. however, it is over $6 a quart.
valvolines' racing oil offers both conventional and synthetic types that contain zinc. stating that they have .12% zinc. they add not to use it on the street vehicles as it will ruin catalitic converters. would using this "not for street" oil be o.k. in my old cars? does it contain enough zinc?

Laemmle
09-07-2007, 03:47 PM
Yes,

Six bucks is steep, but so is 8 bucks for the Sunoco race gas I purchase....but the car is only driven 5 months per year..so I look at it as the cost to enjoy the hobby.......BTW.....using NAPA 15W40 oil.


quote:Originally posted by steve kuiper

in looking around i've found that both castrol(syntec) and valvoline still claim to be making oils with zinc for off-road applications.
castrol claims it is designed for "off road" and "classic cars" that need zinc. however, it is over $6 a quart.
valvolines' racing oil offers both conventional and synthetic types that contain zinc. stating that they have .12% zinc. they add not to use it on the street vehicles as it will ruin catalitic converters. would using this "not for street" oil be o.k. in my old cars? does it contain enough zinc?

N8N
09-07-2007, 04:41 PM
this whole situation frosts my cookies. Yes six bucks a quart is acceptable for a classic car, but what about my 20 year old daily driver?

I realize that "most people" don't drive 20 year old cars on a daily basis, but up until about two years ago I was actually driving it to work every day, and I know I'm not completely alone. (would still be doing it if I didn't have a company car.) ISTM that we're reaching the point of diminishing returns with all these new enviromental laws, and it's putting the squeeze mostly on those who choose not to or CAN'T AFFORD TO buy new cars, that is, those who can't afford to be squeezed.

OK, rant off. back to your regularly scheduled programming.

nate

--
55 Commander Starlight
http://members.cox.net/njnagel

63Avanti
09-07-2007, 10:30 PM
Good news after 2 months of research and shopping around...

If you use CI-4 or CI-4Plus, oil, you DO NOT need additives.
The November Issue of the Avanti Mag will have an extensive article on
this.

You can still find CI-4/CI-4Plus oils out there, but NOT at big box/
auto stores. In commercial and rural areas, you can easily find the
older stuff. I did a quick survey of VOA/PDS in preparation for the
article for the November Avanti mag. Below is a list of what I have
found "on the shelves" and meeting the criteria from the article.

>>>>After the research, I went to my local NAPA and bought the entire store stock of NAPA Universal Fleet Plus, 15w-40, CI-4Plus, (high zinc/TBN/calcium). At $9.55 per gallon, 2.39 per quart, it is tough to beat!<<<<

"Good Oils" from July 2007 study

> 15w-40 CI-4/Plus "Dino"

Best: Cummins/Valvoline Premium Blue Classic, Pennzoil Long Life,
Chevron Delo 400 (not "LE"), Kendall Super D 3, 76 Guardol QLT
Good: NAPA Universal Fleet Plus, Caterpillar DEO, John Deere Plus-50,
Lucas 15/40 Magnum,
Satisfactory: Castrol GTX Diesel, Motorcraft Super Duty, Pilot Premium
HD

> 5w-40 CI-4/Plus Synthetic

Best: Shell Rotella T Synthetic, Cummins/Valvoline Premium Blue Syn
Classic, Red Line Diesel Synthetic

most current info is at http://sterkel.org/avanti/documents/oil_series_for_classic_cars.htm
especially if you insist on looking at additives, click on "Virgin Oil Analyses".



Terry, North Texas
1963 Avanti R2, 63SR1065
(in stage 1 resto "Project A")
http://sterkel.org/avanti
1985 Kubota L2202(Diesel)
1999 Toyota rice burner
1986 Ford 150 Long Bed

steve kuiper
09-09-2007, 09:14 PM
valvoline conventional "racing" (off road) oil is about $4 a quart.on their web site it appears that the container is labelled "not for street use" however, that is just a disclaimer. actual containers do not have that on labels. napa guy called the valvoline rep. he says it has more than enough zinc. i think i'll give that a try. here's hoping.
a old time motor rebuilder ti talked with says the zinc is most important on start up and break in of rebuilt engines. as that is when the most friction and wear in occur.

Flat Ernie
09-09-2007, 11:33 PM
Anecdotal evidence suggests that Valvolene "racing" oil varies widely. Many reports that the stuff sourced from the local big box auto parts chains is just repackaged regular oil & only the special order ("not for highway use" on the label) oil has any zinc in it...

Daddy always said, if yer gonna be dumb, you gotta be tough & I'm one tough sumbitch!

curt
09-10-2007, 08:49 AM
If it has CJ is it ok oil? IF it has SJ is it ok oil? At the Branson meet the fellows said CJ oil was ok But if it has SJ on the packaqge it is bad oil for Studes. What is the story on these designations????[?]

Flat Ernie
09-10-2007, 08:21 PM
CJ is the new low-emissions diesel & does NOT have zinc in it - I wouldn't run it in any of my older cars.

Daddy always said, if yer gonna be dumb, you gotta be tough & I'm one tough sumbitch!

curt
09-10-2007, 08:49 PM
Ernie how about SJ. Can this oil be used when no CJ is on the container???[?]

Flat Ernie
09-11-2007, 11:46 PM
SL & SJ are current ratings for gasoline engines. This means they're designed for modern production engines with low emissions - you can read that as "no zinc" for emissions. So again, I wouldn't run them in old flat-tappet engines.

Coming due on an oil change in the Stude - will have to see what's available locally now as my last bit of CI oil is now gone.

Daddy always said, if yer gonna be dumb, you gotta be tough & I'm one tough sumbitch!

41 Frank
09-26-2007, 01:40 PM
Found some Castrol Diesel 15w-40 CI-4 oil at O'Reilly's auto parts so went ahead and cleaned out 3 of their stores to the tune of 56 quarts total. They did not have any cases of it so it too must be going away. This should hold me for a couple of years for 3 cars. Maybe by that time something else will come along like the Castrol Classic I'm hearing about.The Castrol facts sheet behind the counter in the store did not mention it.

Lenny R2
09-26-2007, 10:46 PM
I went to a Tractor Supply i bought two 2 1/2 gal cans and 3
quarts besides the 8 one gal cans i have already old shell rotella.
What is the shell life of motor oil?does it need to be kept
in a climate controled area?
















w

Lenny
Atlanta Ga.

55sedan
09-27-2007, 02:09 PM
For any fellow Canucks out there I just found a shelf full of Rotella-T 15w40 in CI version at my local Canadian Tire (London). I had the fellow check and they still had cases of it in the back.

1955 Champion Deluxe 2dr.

N8N
09-27-2007, 03:38 PM
Just a side note to this thread; I have been running the 5W40 Rotella synthetic (old stuff) in my 944 and it's great in the winter but on a 90 degree day with the A/C on I'm noticing that it thins out more than I'd like. Porsche specs a 40 or 50 weight oil for that engine and I think next summer I'll be running something else as pressure drops as low as 3 bar (45 PSI) at highway speed. I mentioned this on a Porsche-specific forum and got a couple replies from guys with 951s (the Turbo version of my car) saying that they can't run it for the same reason but that other oils (e.g. Mobil 1 5W40 or 15W50 syn.) didn't seem to cause the same issues.

I don't know if this is a real concern in a cooler running Stude engine or not, but I'll be looking for a thicker alternative. In normal driving in my Studes I have not seen any oil pressure issues with the regular dino 15W40.

nate

--
55 Commander Starlight
http://members.cox.net/njnagel

Jessie J.
09-27-2007, 08:19 PM
quote:Originally posted by Lenny R2
What is the shell life of motor oil?does it need to be kept
in a climate controled area?
The oil itself might remain usable for decades, however the plastic containers that most oil now comes in will likely get brittle and split open with age long before the contents significantly degrade. Much better to just use it up with regular oil changes, than to have to clean up an oily mess all over your shelves, workbenches and floors.

53k
09-30-2007, 05:48 PM
I was looking at all the different 15-40 oils in the local Autozone today. Most were CJ-rated, but Autozone's private brand is CI-rated- ~ $8.00 a gallon (FWIW).

[img=right]http://www.frontiernet.net/~thejohnsons/Forum%20signature%20pix/R-4.JPG[/img=right][img=right]http://www.frontiernet.net/~thejohnsons/Forum%20signature%20pix/64L.JPG[/img=right][img=right]http://www.frontiernet.net/~thejohnsons/Forum%20signature%20pix/64P.jpg[/img=right][img=right]http://www.frontiernet.net/~thejohnsons/Forum%20signature%20pix/53K.jpg[/img=right]Paul Johnson
'53 Commander Starliner (since 1966)
'64 Daytona Wagonaire (original owner)
'64 Daytona Convertible (2006)
Museum R-4 engine

53k
09-30-2007, 05:50 PM
quote:Originally posted by Jessie J.


quote:Originally posted by Lenny R2
What is the shell life of motor oil?does it need to be kept
in a climate controled area?
The oil itself might remain usable for decades, however the plastic containers that most oil now comes in will likely get brittle and split open with age long before the contents significantly degrade. Much better to just use it up with regular oil changes, than to have to clean up an oily mess all over your shelves, workbenches and floors.

I'll have to take another look, but I think Tractor Supply's private brand CI-rated 15-40 is available in five-gallon steel cans.


[img=right]http://www.frontiernet.net/~thejohnsons/Forum%20signature%20pix/R-4.JPG[/img=right][img=right]http://www.frontiernet.net/~thejohnsons/Forum%20signature%20pix/64L.JPG[/img=right][img=right]http://www.frontiernet.net/~thejohnsons/Forum%20signature%20pix/64P.jpg[/img=right][img=right]http://www.frontiernet.net/~thejohnsons/Forum%20signature%20pix/53K.jpg[/img=right]Paul Johnson
'53 Commander Starliner (since 1966)
'64 Daytona Wagonaire (original owner)
'64 Daytona Convertible (2006)
Museum R-4 engine

Laemmle
09-30-2007, 10:11 PM
I have an e-mail from STP.....they claim one bottle has more zddp than one gallon of oil.


quote:Originally posted by Flat Ernie

STP oil treatment says it contains ZDDP on the bottle - how much is anybody's guess. I don't know anyone who has done any testing on it.

Daddy always said, if yer gonna be dumb, you gotta be tough & I'm one tough sumbitch!

Laemmle
09-30-2007, 10:13 PM
Cam2 HD oil is rated API CI-4..just did an oil change yesterday in the Avanti. 15W-40

Laemmle
10-01-2007, 09:40 AM
Still driving my 86 grand marquis daily.....love those big azz fords!





quote:Originally posted by N8N

this whole situation frosts my cookies. Yes six bucks a quart is acceptable for a classic car, but what about my 20 year old daily driver?

I realize that "most people" don't drive 20 year old cars on a daily basis, but up until about two years ago I was actually driving it to work every day, and I know I'm not completely alone. (would still be doing it if I didn't have a company car.) ISTM that we're reaching the point of diminishing returns with all these new enviromental laws, and it's putting the squeeze mostly on those who choose not to or CAN'T AFFORD TO buy new cars, that is, those who can't afford to be squeezed.

OK, rant off. back to your regularly scheduled programming.

nate

--
55 Commander Starlight
http://members.cox.net/njnagel

64V-K7
10-02-2007, 07:19 AM
Here's some more fuel for the fire.... I had a short session with someone on a newsgroup about the oil thing and he replied...
----
A CJ/SM oil that also carries ACEA A3/B3 or A3/B4 approval will
work perfectly well in a "vintage" engine.

Since API dropped the flat tappet wear tests from their test
sequences and ACEA did NOT drop the flat tappet wear tests from
-their- test sequences, it's simply a matter of understanding
which oil testing sequences are worth paying attention to and
which aren't. API aren't.
-----------

Bob Johnstone
http://www.studebaker-info.org/7168422/sig2.jpg