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View Full Version : Engine: Jack Vines, other 259 rebuilders - HELP!



Charlie D
09-26-2011, 07:08 PM
I managed to misplace the crankshaft to flex plate bolts. I would have needed one anyway because someone prior to me replaced one of the socket head cap screws with a hex head bolt. The parts book says part # 194542 (3/8-24 X 1 13/64) fastened with a nut & lock washer. Mine had flat washers & lock nuts on it. Many pictures were taken of the disassembly & one with the bolts/cap screws is hopefully attached. I went today and got six 3/8-24 socket head cap screws in #8 grade. I was trying to get 1” but all they had were 7/8” & 1 1/8” long (the threaded part).

There is a raised, machined area around the crank near where the bolts go through the rear of the crank. The closest I could come with my dial calipers to calculating the clearance between the holes and that raised area was about .060 or so. This kept the heads from bottoming out on the crank and was hanging up on that raised area. I filed a flat spot on the screw heads about .030 deep which allowed them to clear the raised area and seat on the crank. It appears I should have jury-rigged the longer bolts because the 7/8” will not let the lock washers get a bite with a flat washer installed.
Did the original bolts clear this raised area? I looked for the part number in the SI catalog but did not see it. I am not real thrilled about having to file the heads to get the flush fit. I am pretty excited about starting to reassemble the engine. I can not permanently install the crank until I get past this crank to flex plate bolt situation. I would appreciate any help you guys who rebuild these can give me.

I have been checking clearances and everything so far looks within specs. I am using Chuck Lampman’s book & the shop manual for my guides. As well as threads on this site. The end clearance on the crank .005 and the main bearings .0018 to .0021. Rod bearings .001 and piston to cylinder .002.

Thank you for your help!!

Charlie D.

StudeRich
09-26-2011, 07:21 PM
The flat on the ROUND head Crankshaft Bolts, fits the raised ridge on the crank to lock them from turning.
You never use both a Flat AND a Lock Washer on the Nut end of a bolt, the flat allows spinning, and the lock is trying to lock the nut. They are fighting each other, use only Lock washers on the flexplate on top of the 527801 "reinforcer" plate (ring).

If this is an Automatic Trans. Car with a flex plate as you indicate, it takes (6) of 526851 Crankshaft to flexplate bolts, on Pg. 151 in the S.I. Catalog.

PackardV8
09-26-2011, 07:39 PM
As Rich said, the Studebaker designers went to considerable trouble to make it very difficult to do what you are trying to do. Buy the correct bolts.

jack vines

klifton1
09-26-2011, 07:51 PM
Don't those bolts have a small sholder for centering ? If so a hardware bolt won't have that.
Klif

Charlie D
09-26-2011, 10:38 PM
Thank you, StudeRich & PackardV8, I will get an order off quickly.

Charlie D.

Dan Timberlake
09-27-2011, 08:41 PM
I'd have no qualms about ditching the lockwashers and using good quality flat washers to secure any metal-to-metal structural machine joint. I would torque and loosen the nuts a few times to buff down high spots dug up by the evil lock washers.

Jerry Forrester
09-28-2011, 06:05 AM
I have been checking clearances and everything so far looks within specs. I am using Chuck Lampman’s book & the shop manual for my guides. As well as threads on this site. The end clearance on the crank .005 and the main bearings .0018 to .0021. Rod bearings .001 and piston to cylinder .002. [/FONT]

Please check the clearance on the cam bearings. I am still at a standstill with my 259 rebuild because I refuse to assemble it with the out of spec. cam bearing clearance.

Jerry Forrester
09-28-2011, 06:24 AM
I managed to misplace the crankshaft to flex plate bolts. I would have needed one anyway because someone prior to me replaced one of the socket head cap screws with a hex head bolt. The parts book says part # 194542 (3/8-24 X 1 13/64) fastened with a nut & lock washer. Mine had flat washers & lock nuts on it. Many pictures were taken of the disassembly & one with the bolts/cap screws is hopefully attached. I went today and got six 3/8-24 socket head cap screws in #8 grade. I was trying to get 1” but all they had were 7/8” & 1 1/8” long (the threaded part).

I would use Studebaker bolts and star washers and nuts. Or maybe even tap the crank and just use Chevy flex plate bolts with star washers. Correct me if I am wrong, but I think The Great Ted Harbit has been known to use Chevy flywheel bolts.

(S)
09-28-2011, 02:22 PM
We put the set of bolts in the mail on 9/27 for you Charlie. Thanks

Charlie D
09-28-2011, 06:17 PM
Mike, thank you for getting them headed my way. I would like to clarify one small detail. My crankshaft bolts were fastened with flat washers and lock nuts. I had initially looked up the wrong part number in the chassis parts catalog. I was looking at plate 01-8 which shows the bolts for the crank to starting ring gear and the catalog shows the fasteners for those to be a hex nut & lock washer. After StudeRich’s post, I went back to the parts book and looked up part #562851 in the back and it led me to the correct plate on page 16 for the automatic drive. The catalog shows the fastener for the 562851 bolt to be a lock nut. I just will not put the washer between the lock nut and the reinforcement plate as it had been before.

Jerry, I went to the garage and did some miking and snap gaging on the cam bearings and cam itself. Some interesting observations. The machinist had miked the bearing diameters on the cam before it was sent off to the grinders and they were all within the shop manual specs. The cam right now after grinding is .00045 to .00075 under the lower range of numbers per the shop manual for numbers 1 to 4. For number 5 at the back it is .00125 under the lower number. I am assuming this is what it took to clean up the bearing surfaces when grinding the cam. I snap gaged and miked the bearings themselves. I don’t know what they are supposed to be but what I ended up with was 1.870, 1.855, 1.840, 1.825 & 1.246. The variances between the reground cam and the bearings ended up being .001, .0017, .002, .0028, & .0025. The #4 being just over the maximum tolerance per the shop manual. While I was at it, I miked the camshaft thrust plate (.183) and the camshaft gear spacer (.188) which should keep me within the .003 to .006 allowed end play.

The clearances would have easily been within specs if not for the slight diameter taken off while cleaning up the bearing diameters. In fact, #1 would have been really tight and the slight reduction actually helped a little. My guess is that the lobes themselves had to be ground a little under the original size to clean up the slight pitting that was on a few of them. I hope these measurements and clearances will help.

Charlie D.

allstateguy
09-28-2011, 06:40 PM
Sorry if this is a thread jack, but I've been wondering about flywheel attachment myself, and this is going that way at least.

"I would use Studebaker bolts and star washers and nuts. Or maybe even tap the crank and just use Chevy flex plate bolts with star washers. Correct me if I am wrong, but I think The Great Ted Harbit has been known to use Chevy flywheel bolts."

Jerry, this is what I was hoping to do on my engine also. Do you happen to know the size and pitch to tap them, and what length or application of Chevy flywheel bolt will do? I am also using the Fidanza flywheel I got from Ted. Would this use the reinforcer ring? I hesitate to use lockwashers against aluminum.

Jerry Forrester
09-28-2011, 06:48 PM
I hope these measurements and clearances will help.
Yes they do Charlie.
Working from memory (a dangerous thing for a guy my age) your clearances are a lot better than mine. I have a Ted Harbit R1/2 reground cam and have tried cam bearings from two different manufacturers with the same results. Tomorrow I will dig out my notes and post my measurements.

Check this thread from the old NG.
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.autos.studebaker/browse_thread/thread/40f468fd9753ec39/31ad6f1adaa8087f?q=cam+bearings&lnk=ol&
I sure do miss the old NG.

Charlie D
09-29-2011, 02:29 PM
Mike,

Thank you! I can now proceed with the installation of the crankshaft. For those of us who did not know what a crankshaft to flex plate bolt looked like, here are a couple of them.

Charlie D.

StudeRich
10-14-2011, 05:04 PM
Mike,

Thank you! I can now proceed with the installation of the crankshaft. For those of us who did not know what a crankshaft to flex plate bolt looked like, here are a couple of them.
Charlie D.

Thanks Charlie, Mike and I are happy that you got them quickly.

On your other order for the thin V-8 Head gaskets, the USPS clerk said that the Columbus Day Holiday would slow the shipping way down, I guess it's a good thing that I used the Priority Mail option.