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1963 Champ 6 with ruined head - options?

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  • Engine: 1963 Champ 6 with ruined head - options?

    My 63 Champ has the stock 170 6 backed by a 3 speed.

    I was driving it daily but the valve noise was getting to be an issue as was low power, so checked the compression(low in 5) adjusted the valves and it ran a bit better. Still the clatter persisted, so I yanked the head which turned out to be too cracked(especially in 5) to repair by the best local head/block repair folks. Seems like 170 6 heads are hard to come by and I believe they're unique.

    From a cost and availability standpoint it seems I have two options: Find a suitable replacement 6 for it (one locally may or may not fit) or find a complete "good" V8 attached to an overdrive trans. The latter option would be preferable and I've found one that's not close, but it's in-state. The V8/OD price seems to be not much more than the head repair with valve job was going to cost, so the value's there from my perspective to get the V8 and the 0D driveability.

    Some Qs - If my Champ had a stock 6/3sp combo, will the 8/OD combo from early 60's be a bolt in swap? If there are there other areas of concern other than cooling (already upgraded the radiator significantly) with this swap what are they?

    Has anyone out there done the same swap?

    How do I best identify the year and model of V8 / OD?

    Thanks in advance for any help!

    hdh

  • #2
    A V8 OD conversion would completely transform the truck. You will run into issues if the V8 you've found is from a car; trucks used a different bellhousing and mounts.

    The engine number can be found here.



    And from there you can look up the number here: http://www.studebakerdriversclub.com/V8EngineID.asp

    Comment


    • #3
      Appreciate the help.

      This is good to know - pinged the guy for the motor number.

      I glanced at the list link you sent and it'll be a major help in this process either way. I'm attempting to sort through other lists to ID the OD trans.

      Would it be possible to swap out the bell housing / rear mounts or otherwise make the car engine + trans work or is it too difficult?

      Are truck and car motor mounts the same or diff?

      Thanks!

      hdh

      Comment


      • #4
        As Matt said, the Clutch Housing, the rear engine mount "Brackets" (legs) that go on the C/Housing, all the linkage for clutch and Trans. ,front and rear engine mounts (insulators) etc. etc. are all very different in a Truck.

        Also the Car O.D. Trans. would have to be a '55 to '57 to have a short tail so you could connect your bolted yoke type driveshaft, or of course be from a Truck.

        Then you would need all of the O.D. throttle linkage, kickdown switch, harness, shift cable etc.

        This can be done fairly easily, but it really requires a nearly complete Truck to swap the many parts.
        StudeRich
        Second Generation Stude Driver,
        Proud '54 Starliner Owner
        SDC Member Since 1967

        Comment


        • #5
          yes, it seems I don't yet have an "easy" option unless I miraculously find a V8 set up in/from a truck somewhat locally. It seems relatively easy to locate the smaller V8s from 50s commanders and T86E long tail transmissions... I already have an early 60s 283 I could use if I had the correct motor mounts and exhaust headers.

          Still, for driving longer distances I'll need an overdrive option(ideally from an SBC-equipped later truck) that would require all you mention above. Perhaps those parts should be located in advance - any idea the best place to locate some other than trolling the classifieds?

          Comment


          • #6
            I'm a little confused.. Studebaker trucks never came with SBC engines.

            I already have an early 60s 283 I could use if I had the correct motor mounts and exhaust headers.

            Still, for driving longer distances I'll need an overdrive option(ideally from an SBC-equipped later truck) that would require all you mention above. Perhaps those parts should be located in advance - any idea the best place to locate some other than trolling the classifieds?

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by hdh View Post
              Perhaps those parts should be located in advance - any idea the best place to locate some other than trolling the classifieds?
              Yes, our very own SDC Turning Wheels mag. has for sale and wanted columns every Month, you could try there and other places like local or nearby SDC Chapter Newsletters.

              But you will need to look for a '56 to '64 Stude. Truck with a 259 or 289, as Matt said, there were no SBC Engines in Trucks.
              StudeRich
              Second Generation Stude Driver,
              Proud '54 Starliner Owner
              SDC Member Since 1967

              Comment


              • #8
                With the 8E ('63 and '64) both the 6 and 8 used the same bellhousing.flywheel and clutch. The even have the pilot in the crank like the 8. If you find a decent 259 or 289, you could use your existing T-90 for a while until you locate a T-89, it'll work and fit, but won't be as strong.

                Originally posted by hdh View Post
                My 63 Champ has the stock 170 6 backed by a 3 speed.

                I was driving it daily but the valve noise was getting to be an issue as was low power, so checked the compression(low in 5) adjusted the valves and it ran a bit better. Still the clatter persisted, so I yanked the head which turned out to be too cracked(especially in 5) to repair by the best local head/block repair folks. Seems like 170 6 heads are hard to come by and I believe they're unique.

                From a cost and availability standpoint it seems I have two options: Find a suitable replacement 6 for it (one locally may or may not fit) or find a complete "good" V8 attached to an overdrive trans. The latter option would be preferable and I've found one that's not close, but it's in-state. The V8/OD price seems to be not much more than the head repair with valve job was going to cost, so the value's there from my perspective to get the V8 and the 0D driveability.

                Some Qs - If my Champ had a stock 6/3sp combo, will the 8/OD combo from early 60's be a bolt in swap? If there are there other areas of concern other than cooling (already upgraded the radiator significantly) with this swap what are they?

                Has anyone out there done the same swap?

                How do I best identify the year and model of V8 / OD?

                Thanks in advance for any help!

                hdh
                Ron Dame
                '63 Champ

                Comment


                • #9
                  But you will need to look for a '56 to '64 Stude. Truck with a 259 or 289,
                  Are the '53-55 V8 trucks different bellhousings, mounts, etc? My '55 224" looks the same as later trucks at a glance.

                  jack vines
                  PackardV8

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    I can't say for sure on that, but even a car V8 will work with the '63 and '64 6 cylinder truck bellhousing. Front mounts will be different though, and you'll probably have to use the rear plate off of the 6 on the V8.

                    Correction: the rear plate off of the 6 will not work on a V8. I do not know if a car V8 rear plate will mate with the truck bellhousing. But still, the 6 bellhousing flywheel, clutch and transmission will work with the V8, though the T90 is not as strong as a T-89

                    Originally posted by PackardV8 View Post
                    Are the '53-55 V8 trucks different bellhousings, mounts, etc? My '55 224" looks the same as later trucks at a glance.

                    jack vines
                    Last edited by Ron Dame; 09-26-2011, 10:19 AM. Reason: Correcting a stupid answer.
                    Ron Dame
                    '63 Champ

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      It sure sounds like it would be a lot easier to get a replacement 6 cylinder head. They are not that hard to find at least a rebuildable head, and when those engines are good they run just fine. And yes, I am absolutely a lover of Studebaker V-8s, but the changeover requires ALL the right pieces.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by PackardV8 View Post
                        Are the '53-55 V8 trucks different bellhousings, mounts, etc? My '55 224" looks the same as later trucks at a glance. Jack vines
                        I was just trying to be practical here Jack.

                        1. There were no '53 V-8 Trucks
                        2. The only '54's that had a V-8 were E40 2 Ton and larger H.D. Trucks, I think 1 or 2 exist today.
                        3. The '55's would not be the best parts truck because of the 6 Volt starter, course toothed flywheel etc. etc.
                        And in the first year of V-8 light Trucks, there were not many built, so the chances of finding one are small, but I don't know of any major problem using one.
                        StudeRich
                        Second Generation Stude Driver,
                        Proud '54 Starliner Owner
                        SDC Member Since 1967

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          It sure sounds like it would be a lot easier to get a replacement 6 cylinder head. They are not that hard to find at least a rebuildable head, and when those engines are good they run just fine.
                          Here's where we'll agree to disagree. The OHV heads may not be hard to find, but I'd say next to impossible to find one which isn't already cracked.

                          The Champion 170" was designed in 1939 to power a 2400# economy car. When asked to haul an 8E7 3500# truck with a 5000# GVW or an 8E10 with 7000# GVW, they're fatally overtaxed. I always wondered, "What was Studebaker thinking?" Did any of the engineers actually believe the Champion was suited for trucks up to 10,000 GVW? The Lamberti papers we've enjoyed here recently have weekly mentions of the Champion engine failures and warranty complaints, right up until the close of business.

                          The OHV cylinder head was an attempt to help the Champion last another couple of years, but every one I've ever seen was cracked, as is hdh's. FWIW, the last Stude OHV 6-cyl owner who brought me a cracked head to repair, I told him, "One definition of insanity is to continue to do the same thing in the same way, but expecting a different result." Your opinions may vary.

                          jack vines
                          PackardV8

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            You guys are offering up a WEALTH of experience here. THANKS!

                            I will most likely try to find the correct Truck V8 now if at all possible. By "Plate" you mean rear motor / trans mounting plate, right?

                            Stoked to know that the bell housing, clutch etc... will roll over to the correct V8! T89 - wonder how I identify one of those by the numbers. It seems there's no shortage of transmissions out there as well as service parts. Would a T89 utilize the same bell housing, clutch, flexplate, etc...??

                            T89 # ID source?

                            I think I can figure out the motor # range I'd need via our club site -

                            3E-9,201


                            1960 5E series truck


                            259





                            3E-11,601


                            1961 6E series truck


                            259





                            3E-14,801


                            1962 7E series truck


                            259





                            3E-18,901


                            1963 8E series truck


                            259


                            3


                            5E-101


                            1955 E series truck

                            6E-4,601


                            1961 6E series truck


                            289 HD





                            6E-5,101


                            1962 7E series truck


                            289 HD





                            6E-5,501


                            1963 8E series truck


                            289 HD


                            3


                            7E-101


                            1957-63 3E-8E series trucks


                            289


                            3,6


                            Or, will only the "8E" plate be a direct swap into my 63 8E engine bay?



                            Thanks,

                            hdh

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              And, MBStude, I stand corrected regarding the engine choice For some reason I was under the impression chevy 283 motors were used beginning in 64 for the V8 in studebakers, but I'm gathering now that didn't apply to the champ trucks.

                              Comment

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