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mjeansonne
06-02-2007, 08:24 PM
We are attempting to use the North Carolina recommendation for replacing the front seal, using the National (Federal Mogul) seal and sleeve. After removing material from the seal carrier, the rubber seal now hits the seal retainer. This results in deformation of the rubber seal so that it doesn't seal around the vibration damper hub. Should we have the seal retainer machined now so that the retainer misses the rubber seal itself? Please help.

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sbca96
06-02-2007, 08:59 PM
I have not done this mod yet myself .. is this the place you found it?

http://www.ncsdc.com/TechnicalPages/TimingSealConversion/TimingSeal.html

Tom

'63 Avanti, zinc plated drilled & slotted 03 Mustang Cobra 13" front disc/98 GT rear brakes, 03 Cobra 17" wheels, GM alt, 97 Z28 leather seats, soon: 97 Z28 T-56 6-spd, Ported heads w/SST full flow valves, 'R3' 276 cam, Edelbrock AFB Carb, GM HEI distributor, 8.8mm plug wires

mjeansonne
06-02-2007, 11:15 PM
Yep, that's the place!!

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JDP
06-02-2007, 11:27 PM
I bought my seal kit from Fairborn Studebaker and did not have that problem, nor do I recall the Readisleeve.

JDP/Maryland


63 GT R2
63 Avanti R1
63 Daytona convert
63 Lark 2 door
62 Lark 2 door
60 Lark HT-60Hawk
59 3E truck
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52 & 53 Starliner
51 Commander

StudeRich
06-02-2007, 11:30 PM
We tried a redi sleeve .... ONCE.

Chucks Stude
06-02-2007, 11:46 PM
Are you all saying that the National seal and redi-sleave combo do not work?
I just got mine from NAPA.com, and have not yet torn into it. Am I going to have a problem?

55studeman
06-03-2007, 12:29 AM
What do you mean by seal retainer? Do you mean the retainer of the timming cover that holds the seal itself OR do you mean the "retainer" also called the "installation rim" that is on the redi-sleeve?

Best Regards,
Eric West
"The Speedster Kid"
Sunny Northern California
Where the roads don't freeze over and the heat doesn't kill you.
And an open road is yours to have -only during non-commute rush hours 9am-4pm and 7pm to 7am (Ha, ha, ha)
55 Speedster "Lemon/Lime" (Beautiful)
55 President State Sedan (Rusty original, but runs great and reliable)

DEEPNHOCK
06-03-2007, 06:03 AM
Did you remove the curved 'installation flange' of the Redi-Sleeve?
http://i77.photobucket.com/albums/j54/deepnhock/RediSleeve.jpg
There should be a small notched groove right by the edge of the flat surface right where the curve starts. This is the 'tear point'. You grap the outer edge of the curved flange and twist the flange with a pair of needle nosed pliers until it tears and you peel the flange part off. Is this what you say was interfering with the seal? A standard redi-sleeve is only .011" thick, so .022" should be in the allowable deformation range of a seal lip.
Here's some redi-sleeve info:
http://www.timken.com/products/bearings/pdf/NSCInfoSection.pdf
Hope the info helps.
Jeff[8D]




quote:Originally posted by mjeansonne

We are attempting to use the North Carolina recommendation for replacing the front seal, using the National (Federal Mogul) seal and sleeve. After removing material from the seal carrier, the rubber seal now hits the seal retainer. This results in deformation of the rubber seal so that it doesn't seal around the vibration damper hub. Should we have the seal retainer machined now so that the retainer misses the rubber seal itself? Please help.

Laisez le bon temps roulez avec un Studebaker


http://i77.photobucket.com/albums/j54/deepnhock/Jeff%20Rice%20Studebaker%20Pictures/1937StudebakerCoupeExpressJeffRicee.jpg

DEEPNHOCK at Gmail.com
Brooklet, Georgia
'37 Coupe Express (never ending project)
'37 Coupe Express Trailer (project)
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mjeansonne
06-03-2007, 08:08 AM
Thanks all for such prompt replies!!!

When I speak of retainer, I am talking about the retainer that is attached to the timing cover and holds the old felt seal in. The new seal's metal carrier was too thick... so I trimmed it down so that it was flush with the seal hole in the timing cover... thus when you replace the seal retainer and tighten it down, there is deformation of the rubber seal itself.

Was there a gasket between the timing cover and the retainer (or should there be now)?

Jeff. No I didn't remove the "installation flange"... yet. That is not what is causing the deformation.

But, what I am proposing to remove is the 'curved' part of the retainer that goes around the crankshaft.


Laisez le bon temps roulez avec un Studebaker

DEEPNHOCK
06-03-2007, 08:55 AM
OK, I understand you better now.
I do not know what seal number you are using, but be aware that there are multiple part numbers for a lip type seal with that OD and ID. The different numbers can mean seal material (Viton, Nitrile, etc.), different case style, and a diffetent lip style. Don't panic because your number has a case that is too wide. Ask for a seal with a thinner case. I would suggest sticking to a nitrile rubber seal and stay away from Viton, as Viton is quite aggressive in a wet environment, which a front cover can get exposed to from time to time.
'If' the flange of the Redi-Sleeve is flush against the crank flange with no protuberance, and the inner radius does not interfere with the seal, then you might be able to leave it alone. But if it sticks out the least little bit, it needs to be removed, as it would end up being an oil slinger and would prevent oil from getting up to, and lubricating the front seal lip.
And yes, there was a thin paper gasket between the retainer and the front cover. (at least there was on the last few I took apart. They were morked up and had to be replaced)
Hope the info helps.
Jeff[8D]



quote:Originally posted by mjeansonne

Thanks all for such prompt replies!!!

When I speak of retainer, I am talking about the retainer that is attached to the timing cover and holds the old felt seal in. The new seal's metal carrier was too thick... so I trimmed it down so that it was flush with the seal hole in the timing cover... thus when you replace the seal retainer and tighten it down, there is deformation of the rubber seal itself.

Was there a gasket between the timing cover and the retainer (or should there be now)?

Jeff. No I didn't remove the "installation flange"... yet. That is not what is causing the deformation.

But, what I am proposing to remove is the 'curved' part of the retainer that goes around the crankshaft.


Laisez le bon temps roulez avec un Studebaker

gordr
06-04-2007, 11:42 AM
If the new seal is a press fit into the timing cover, you don't need the retainer plate. The retainer plate is a feature of the FELT seal design, and is not needed with a neoprene lip seal. Brand X engines using neoprene seals don't use retainers.

Now if this conversion calls for an oddball seal that does not fit the timing cover properly, then maybe the retainer is needed.

Ingvar Vik used to do this conversion, and he machined the timing cover to accept a standard seal, IIRC.

Gord Richmond, within Weasel range of the Alberta Badlands

kamzack
06-04-2007, 01:30 PM
My 25 cents worth,
Over the years I too have tried the neoprene seals with the shim on the out side perimeter inside the seal housing and sleeve. They work good. I've also had good success with the felt. To get max life out of the felt, It should be thorouhly and completely soaked in motor oil. The next thing is to leave the timeing case cover bolts loose until hub is installed. This allows seal to center itself on the hub. This a step that's sometimes overlooked and will allow oil to excape both rubber seal and felt. I've gotten long distances from both and my Studes have never been weekend drivers, but dailies and mostly long distances.
Hope this helps,
Kim

StudeRich
06-04-2007, 01:46 PM
That's the prob with these "conversion kits" the neoprene lip seal does NOT fit! And YES it needs the retainer to hold it. Only the Ingvar Vic machined hub and timing cover actually WORK!
Just this week we re-sealed my '62 Transtar's 289 by removing the "modern seal conversion kit". In the early 1990's I had purchased the kit from someone in Arizona with the strip of aluminum beer can, the seal and the redi-sleeve. That was it's prob also, it did NOT fit between the "retainer" and the cover. In 1998 it was installed and gasket sealer was used to seal it to the cover, but it did NOT work and it leaked. So we simply left the ready-sleeve in place and put in the original type felt seal. Unless you have excessive blow-by, they don't leak anyway!


quote:Originally posted by gordr

If the new seal is a press fit into the timing cover, you don't need the retainer plate.

StudeRich
Studebakers Northwest
Ferndale, WA

64V-K7
06-04-2007, 05:10 PM
I used one of those seal/redi-sleeve combos back in 2001. The same problem arose as the seal was thicker than the area where the felt used to reside.
I peened the body of the seal over until it fit. Just take your time and use light force. It wasn't a big deal

Here's the page on it...

http://www.studebaker-info.org/tech/Oilseal2/oilseal.html

Bob Johnstone
http://www.studebaker-info.org/7168422/sig2.jpg

dclewallen
06-04-2007, 05:36 PM
Now I'm concerned. I've also done the seal/redisleeve conversion on my 289 [that has yet to be installed]. After I peened the metal lip of the seal there was no clearence for the aluminum shims? It appeared to be tightly centered so I just put some silicone under and around it and assembled it. I'm hoping for the best.

Darryl C. Lewallen Clarkesville, Ga.

Neal in NM
06-04-2007, 08:09 PM
I have always believed that speedy-sleeves are just a temporary fix. They are truly not good for prolonged use in my opinion because of the extra thickness of the sleeve it actually pushes harder on the seal giving more friction causing premature failure of the seal. Now if a sleeve is pressed onto a shaft and a measurement is taken and the proper seal is selected to give the correct preload on the seal lip I am all for it. Before any of you give me a hard time I have used speedy-sleeves in the past and it was a temporary fix you know just long enough to sell the vehicle or to save enough moneys for a new harmonic balancer.

I posted how I replaced the felt seal with a neoprene seal a while ago by machining a holder for the seal and welding it in place on the timing cover. I had to make a new hub for the harmonic balancer because mine was broken so I didn't have to address the issue of a speedy-sleeve. I have an advantage because I own a machine shop and can do these things for myself. Neal

mjeansonne
06-04-2007, 09:56 PM
I was unable to read this thread yesterday (Sunday) because the server must have been down. I was able to get some emails to and from Phil Harris with Fairborn Studebaker... he was very helpful, as well as prompt. Thanks Phil!!! I think I may get another seal and not remove as much metal (if any) from the seal carrier. I will need to get some longer screws to hold the seal retainer down. But I shouldn't have to bore the seal retainer and thus lose the oil shield.

But this presents a new question... What is the distance from the seal retainer on the timing cover and the timing gear on the crankshaft? Will there be any interference from the seal retainer if the crankshaft seal is thicker?

Thanks to all who have responded.


Laisez le bon temps roulez avec un Studebaker

DEEPNHOCK
06-04-2007, 11:03 PM
In actuality, a Speedi-Sleeve is superior to the original shaft surface.
First, you have no machine lead, which is the bane to good sealing.
(A Speedi-Sleeve is centerless ground to a specific RMS surface finish, which is ideal for a seal to run on)...
And second, the .022" (.011" twice) os not enough to deflect the seal lip past the design perameters that were built into it.
But...
You should put #1 hardening Permatex on the shaft as you drive on the speedi sleeve to fill in any seal induced groove under the Speedi-Sleeve (if the groove is nasty bad).... Sometimes the tension on a seal lip is enough to deform the Speedi-Sleeve to conform to an indented (grooved) shaft. The #1 hardening Permatex solves that issue.
And you probably did not have a neoprene seal, but had a nitrile rubber seal, as that is what most automotive seals are made from.
Jeff[8D]



quote:Originally posted by Neal in NM

I have always believed that speedy-sleeves are just a temporary fix. They are truly not good for prolonged use in my opinion because of the extra thickness of the sleeve it actually pushes harder on the seal giving more friction causing premature failure of the seal. Now if a sleeve is pressed onto a shaft and a measurement is taken and the proper seal is selected to give the correct preload on the seal lip I am all for it. Before any of you give me a hard time I have used speedy-sleeves in the past and it was a temporary fix you know just long enough to sell the vehicle or to save enough moneys for a new harmonic balancer.

I posted how I replaced the felt seal with a neoprene seal a while ago by machining a holder for the seal and welding it in place on the timing cover. I had to make a new hub for the harmonic balancer because mine was broken so I didn't have to address the issue of a speedy-sleeve. I have an advantage because I own a machine shop and can do these things for myself. Neal

Sudsy
06-11-2007, 04:39 AM
I've just read this so i'll put in my 2c's worth.
Have recently modified the front seal on the 57 President by machining the cover out to the felt seal housing and also machined the spiral off the hub and fitted a neoprene seal to suit.
will have to wait and see how successfull it is but can't see any problems plus can be changed without removing timing cover:D:D
I did fit the hub before tightening the timing cover just to make sure it was central
Sorry can't post pic's as it is already fitted but have to do the one for the 63 Hawk so can post some pic's then if anyone want's them:):)

Regards Bob

DEEPNHOCK
06-11-2007, 08:24 AM
Only potential problem with this method is machine lead...
Even microscopically, the turning process puts a screw pattern into the shaft that will work oil out forward, and out of the crankcase.
It may well be so minor that it might not end up being a problem.
Jeff[8D]



quote:Originally posted by Sudsy

I've just read this so i'll put in my 2c's worth.
Have recently modified the front seal on the 57 President by machining the cover out to the felt seal housing and also machined the spiral off the hub and fitted a neoprene seal to suit.
will have to wait and see how successfull it is but can't see any problems plus can be changed without removing timing cover:D:D
I did fit the hub before tightening the timing cover just to make sure it was central
Sorry can't post pic's as it is already fitted but have to do the one for the 63 Hawk so can post some pic's then if anyone want's them:):)

Regards Bob