Definitions, Opinions and Standards

[jlmccuan]

Having just spent 40 hours on the road and 8 days in the midst of car nuts and car show minded folks I've had the chance to distill many questions and conversations down to a fairly short list. I invite folks who have an opinion and experience as well as those who have opinions and lack experience to ponder and comment on the below list of somewhat "hot" topics and concepts that have been bothering myself and others in the rank and file as well as those in leadership of our organizations (SDC and AOAI) as of late with regards to showing and judging.

Please include your experience level in introduction, not to qualify or disqualify your comments, but rather to give an idea of your perspective and help others understand your point of view. I'm interested in everybody's input here, from the seasoned veteran to the interested newbie. In fact, the inexperienced folks may provide the most insight, because they most closely mirror the public's understanding of our hobby.

With that said, here we go. Please explain your take on the following concepts as relates to showing and judging of automobiles. I may need to add items. Please check the edited reasons for items added if you notice other addressing terms not in your original reply and feel free to edit your answer to include them. Also, please fill out the edited reason if you feel the need to change your original post.

Original

Factory Equipment

Survivor Car

Restored

Authentic

Condition

Period Correct

[BobGlasscock]

I've had my car since it rolled off the line and I was born. I have no interest in modifying any car, but appreciate the effort and skill involved in doing so. I'm a fair shade-tree mechanic, but don't have the tool assets to do more.

Original -- same as survivor in my opinion. No none-factory line parts or accessories. All repair/replacement parts are original manufacturer parts for that particular repair. No upgrades or improvements, ie paint, engine rebuilds, re-upholstery, etc.

Factory equipment -- any equipment manufactured and/or installed by the manufacturer on the assembly line or before shipment to the dealer.

Survivor -- same as original.

Restored -- Original or survivor which has had improvements such as upholstery, paint, rebuilds, etc. done to change it from original or survivor to a mechanical and comestically pleasing appearance, dependability.

Authentic -- don't really understand this word in defining the work done, or not done, on a car. No fake parts?

Condition -- this would be the judged level of work done to accomplish the finished level of quality of mechanics and cosmetic appearance. This is where a sub-list of car components would have a graduated, stepped appraisal system which might start at 'lousy' and end at 'magnificent/perfect'. The sub-list would have to be very specific on grading in order to minimize the end result of arbitrary human subjectiveness.

[bezhawk]

Original: As made in the production order, with no differing or added accessories that wern't ordered.

Factory equipment: I would take that to be date and model correct accessories.....ie: AM-FM added after the car was delivered

Survivor: An original car that has had nothing more than maintenence to make it driveable.....NO complete paint jobs, or if so then was done early on in it's life (collision repair)

Restored: All parts refurbished as new. May include brake upgrades and other saftey equipment.

Authentic: To me means NO modifications to modern standards such as rack and pinion, etc.

Condition: All the way from Installed but non functional or worn -----all the way to nos or refurbished beyond what was available when manufactured.

[studegary]

I have owned more than 50 Studebakers and more than 50 other cars. I have done partial restorations on some of my cars and worked part time in a restoration garage.
I have shown Studebakers and others. I have had a national winning Studebaker and other.
I wrote the initial SDC Judging Rules and Regulations manual.
I judged, primarily C&K authenticity, at many SDC Internationals. I have judged at many other meets, including prestigous events by invitation.

Original - A vehicle with at least 90% of what it came from the factory with - no repaint, no interior replacement, etc. Things like tires and battery can be replacements.
Factory Equipment - Can be interpreted two ways. 1) What the car had when built, including factory authorized accessories. 2) Anything the factory made available for that particular model. I favor no. 1.
Survivor - [see original]
Restored - Brought back to factory/new original condition.
Authentic - [see Factory Equipment - choice 1]
Condition - A measure of a combination of wear and cleanliness.

[bezhawk]

OK, Jim, if you're gonna open a can of worms, then at least let us know YOUR interpritation of terms .

[jlmccuan]

Oh, I will, but I'm truly interested in what folks think. There is no right or wrong really in this. For instance, if the definition of the judging body deems that "survivor" means a car that has been totalled out in its lifetime and has been brought back to functional is a "survivor", then it's their party and their rules. But as it stands, there is no such definition of any of this provided. I hope to point out with this excercise the wide differences in what the people in the hobby think of what these terms mean and that clarification is necessary. Let's all provide the input as to what these things CAN mean and help guide the application of terms like these. The SDC and AOAI are both working toward this standardization and it is a hurculean task to be clear yet inclusive. They need help in eliminating the loopholes and miscommunications we all are frustrated with.

Also let me add, I am not rabble rousing or trying to stir up trouble, just attempting to stimulate honest dialog and discussion.

[BobPalma]

Please include your experience level in introduction, not to qualify or disqualify your comments, but rather to give an idea of your perspective and help others understand your point of view. I'm interested in everybody's input here, from the seasoned veteran to the interested newbie. In fact, the inexperienced folks may provide the most insight, because they most closely mirror the public's understanding of our hobby.

With that said, here we go. Please explain your take on the following concepts as relates to showing and judging of automobiles. I may need to add items. Please check the edited reasons for items added if you notice other addressing terms not in your original reply and feel free to edit your answer to include them. Also, please fill out the edited reason if you feel the need to change your original post.

Original

Factory Equipment

Survivor Car

Restored

Authentic

Condition

Original is difficult to nail down because there are so many categories of original, Jim.

For example, are we talking about parts that were originally installed on the production line?
Original miles, as opposed to a car having been "clocked" at some time in its life, or the odometer returned to zero following a $75,000 scoop-to-nuts restoration to "as new"...or better?
Original as to a faithful recreation to OEM, as-manufactured, status (as opposed to modified or upgraded) during restoration.
Original equipment, as to a car having its OEM battery or tires or spark plugs?

The really are lots of subheadings under the word original as it relates to the collector-car hobby. That's why answers will be all over the place.


Factory Equipment is a little easier. It is generally accepted to be parts and accessories that were available either as manufactured on (or with) the car at the time, or available as dealer-installed accessories or "equipment" during the model year of manufacture.

That is why, for example, you could say that a 1964 Studebaker Cruiser with dealer-installed AM/FM radio would have "factory equipment," but the same radio installed in a 1963 Cruiser could not be represented as having "all factory equipment" because that radio wasn't available during the 1963 model year of production.


A Survivor Car has been carefully defined by various Corvette Clubs and, indeed, they have tried to trademark the word as it applies to a mostly-original (there's that word original again) car. I'm too lazy to research and post their definition of a survivor, but will defer to that definition as being the standard for the hobby because I believe they came up with it first and have gone to great lengths to define it. (This is one place where a hobby-wide standard would be easy to implement, since the legwork has been done and is published.)


Restored can be all over the place as well, but this is one area where an AACA (Antique Automobile Club of America, of which I have been a Life Member about 40 years) standard could be implemeted and save a lot of trouble and haggling.

Again, having things standardized by a national, multi-marque organization is almost mandatory. If we each had our own definition of, say, what constitutes a wide whitewall for a 1958 Golden Hawk without using period photographs to document with which of several currently-available "wide" whitewall widths the car would have been shipped, it would be impossible to judge a car as having been restored to OEM standards.

The newer term over-restored is certainly valid, since so many contemporary vehicles are "restored" to far higher standards of fit and finish than were ever in place...or even possible, in the case of paint technology...when the vehicles were manufactured.


Authentic is easy: Here is period literature and/or documentation to verify how the vehicle was originally manufactured as to engine accessory colors, type of stitching in the upholstery, position of the battery hold down (very important!) and the like. If the vehicle looks and operates per that documentation, it is authentic.


Condition: Not sure what we're looking for here, Jim. Poor condition is something that looks or works (if at all) dramatically poorly when compared to when it was new. Fair condition not so much, Good condition even less (as to variation from new), and Excellent as to having virtually no variation from brand new. 'Doubt that you can expect much agreement here due to many factors.

For example, we had a recent thread in which a 1947-1949 Champion for sale was described as being in poor condition as to rust. Folks in the southwest would look at the car, which had virtually no paint remaining and was thus heavily surface-rusted and say, "Yep; that's in poor condition as to rust."

Those of us in the rust belt would walk right past that situation, open the drivers door, see a rock-solid driver floor and pillar post and say, "Wow; that's in good condition as to rust!"

In fact, I think that's exactly how that thread came down, didn't it? <GGG>

Good topic, Jim, but don't anybody get their panties all wadded up if there isn't much common ground.

After all, we are car hobbyists...and who else might sit in lawn chairs in the blistering sun, engaged in a spirited conversation about the type of OEM finish on an air cleaner wing nut? <GGG> 'Probably not the younger guys, for sure, which might give us something to think about as to priorities. BP

[1954khardtop]

I'm 56 and have been a car nut all my life. I would call my cars car refurbished, repaired, not fully restoredto original.
My opinions , for what they're worth:

Original- If you're talking about a car, as it came from the factory with most of its original parts. If you're talking about a part it is an o.e.m. part made for that car.

Factory equipment- parts available on that year and model.

Survivor car- See original. Beware, I've seen fakes in the antique motorcycle club meets. I've seen wanted ads looking for an original paint fender or tank for thier "original" bike.

Restored- I used to take that to mean returned to brand new, as built condition, no modifications. Now I hear discriptions like "completely restored, with mustang II suspension, SBC, chopped, etc". So now I say restored, or restored to original.

Authentic- A correct for the year restoration or part.

Condition- I'll leave that one to the judges.

[avantilover]

I agree with the above definitions. In my opinion a Surviror is a basically original as in factory or with dealer installed accessories which has "survived" that is hasn't been stripped and rebuilt.

My Studebelle is a survivor in that she has the original paint/carpet/upholstery/ dash etc although having been brought back to factory suspension specifications. I have had her suspension redone from front to rear and for the first time last week I learnt how it feels to drive a Studebaker as she would have left the dealer and I couldn't be more delighted.

It seems to me this is really an American issue as we here in South Australia and possibly most of Australia just look at the quality of the vehicle, as was said to me - "The Americans have many more Studebakers than we do" (Brian Greenall and Ian Mackellar notwithstanding) and thus you can fuss about it.

At least we don't have the issue of "Numbers Matching and Date Coding" that seem to be an obsession in the GM Ford and Chrysler clubs.

[Corvanti]

having come over a few years ago from corvettes, i'm somewhat familiar with "bloomington gold" standards, etc.

i've been waiting for awhile to hear what happened in springfield regarding "original" and "survivor" (seems to me they should be the same thing) judging, as i have posted in the past.

i tend to agree with Mr. Lindstrom and Mr. Palma on definitions, and think a standard, such as implementing AACA (or another's) regulations would be a positive for all collectors.

i've been trying to use this link as a guide for any maintenance or possible replacements, such as an overdrive transmission, in the '40, until a definitive answer from SDC comes forth: http://www.survivorcollectorcar.com/?link=Awards1

[jlmccuan]

OK. As promised, please find below my thoughts on terminology. I have purposely avoided looking at the AACA and other organizations' definitions until after seeking out what others thought. I will be looking at them soon, though. I have been into cars and automotive performance for the last 45 years. Started off as muscle cars, then some SCCA autocrossing, and the last 6 years or so actively seeking out Studebakers. I vividly remember seeing my first Avanti at about age 8 and asking my father what it was. I decided then one day I would have one. It took me 40 years, but I have 2 now. I have participated at the Pure Stock Muscle Car Drag Races, then I got the chance to be on the Salt 2 Salt race team at Bonneville last year and was hooked. I acquired a 1964 GT Hawk I am building for C engined Classic Production Supercharged. My judged car show experience is a somewhat newfound interest and like everything else I do, I try to learn everything I can. Hence this thread. And now, my thoughts.

Original
As applied to the term "original equipment", the configuration a car was first manufactured with. Nothing added, nothing removed.
An "original car" would be equipped with it's original equipment and it's major components would be the parts it left the factory with. What the GM guys would consider "numbers matching".
A 100% original car would have all of its original parts and no repaint or repair work in it's history other than maintenance history such as shocks, tires, belts and hoses, tune up items, etc.
For instance, "original tires" would be the tires the vehicle rolled off the assembly line, not replacement tires of the same size and manufacturer.
One would expect there would be very few, if any, 100% original Studebakers in existence.

Factory Equipment
Options available as factory installed equipment.

Survivor Car
A car that with the exception of maintenance and repaired items, is unchanged from its documented factory equipment. This would include factory paint, driveline, interior and trim. This is not a neglected car. For instance, if the car was dented, that dent would be repaired to original factory condition. Preferrably, any repairs of this nature would be documented, especially when it involves engine block or body part replacement. This log would be part of the inspected items at a judged show to allow judges to understand the history and qualifications of the car's survivor status. Note that a survivor car need not be 100% original.

Restored
A part, system, or complete vehicle that has undergone a mechanical and appearance remanufacturing process.

Authentic
A part, system, or complete vehicle that is, or can be documented as a factory item.

Condition
The level of fit, function, and appearance of a part, system, or complete vehicle.

My definitions are certainly changing and I expect to change them quite a bit more as a result of this thread and research into the AACA and other organizations.

Part of the reason for this thread is to point out the large range of ideas out there and the need for attention to this by the SDC and AOAI to reduce confusion in judging and showing vehicles. As far as buying a car, the seller's idea of "survivor" or "original" is most likely quite different than a potential buyer. These terms are bandied about with little regard as to what they mean by the majority of the public.

Also, let me reiterate, these are just my current thoughts as to the meanings, not what any organization says, just what comes to my mind when I hear them in written or spoken word. Most probably, they are NOT what the speaker or writer intended.

[jlmccuan]

I must admit, I'm rather surprised at how few responses this has generated considering how many folks have given me very different definitions over the past couple of months.

[clonelark]

At the Springfield Nationals i was ask to bring my 55 Conestoga to the South Bend Nationals as an example for the Survivor class. It Still has the original paint and upholstry and has been seen by many midwest people. The front seat isnt in the greatest shape but it is over 50 years old. And the paint wont hardly shine. (I welcome anyone to try to make it shine.) it isnt like paint of todays standards. it's 50= year old laquer paint. I refuse to repaint the car because it only original ONCE, and a pretty rare car.

[studegary]

At the Springfield Nationals i was ask to bring my 55 Conestoga to the South Bend Nationals as an example for the Survivor class. It Still has the original paint and upholstry and has been seen by many midwest people. The front seat isnt in the greatest shape but it is over 50 years old. And the paint wont hardly shine. (I welcome anyone to try to make it shine.) it isnt like paint of todays standards. it's 50= year old laquer paint. I refuse to repaint the car because it only original ONCE, and a pretty rare car.

Postwar Studebakers, except Avanti, would have enamel paint, not "laquer"(sic)/lacquer.

[jlmccuan]

Our car also had a dull lifeless finish. It can be made to shine again if there is sufficient thickness remaining. It is simple, but it is not easy, and there is the risk of cutting through. Contact me via PM.