PDA

View Full Version : Charging system. REPAIRED!



studebaker-R2-4-me
05-21-2007, 11:54 AM
Here's what I've done to date:

1)I've purchased a new battery.
2)I've taken my alternator to the local rewind shop TWICE confirming both times it has 37A of output.
On my second trip to the rewind alternator shop I also brought in my Voltage regulator. It had a regulated voltage output but the the coil showed that it had a short in it.
3) I replaced the voltage regulator with a new modern electronic regulator supplied by the alternator shop.
4) Finally I thought I had the charging system repaired I then boosted the Hawk and the ammeter showed a charging state for about 5 minutes then went to a neutral state.
5)I Drove the car for a while parked it in the shop tried to start it and the battery was dead.
6) I borrowed a Battery charger from a freind and Charged the battery. I tested Continuity on the field wire (alternator to voltage regulator and the charge wire (alternator to solenoid). The wires show continuity.
7) Looked for a ground wire from the engine to the motor mount and that was missing. I installed a #10 AWG from the engine to the frame mount.
8) I cleaned the battery cables connections which meant I had to remove the power steering pump to be able to clean the ground connection on the waterpump manifold.
9) Since the power steering pump was off I removed the fuel pump and installed a new gasket. One more leak fixed.
10) Put it all back together with a fully charged battery.
11) I set my Fluke meter testing Amperage draw between the positive post of the battery and the soleniod. My stereo is drawing 5.4 milliamps constantly. This is the only draw on the battery with the car ignition off.

While driving the dash ammeter shows a neutral state with everything off, No lights, no stereo. When I turn on the stereo the ammeter shows a slight draw on the system. But when I throw the headlights on it the ammeter make a big jump showing a discharging state. The ammeter never showed a positive state after the original installation.

I'm at my wits end![}:)] My only thought is I have blown that new voltage requlator. I should have started out with a freshly charged battery before starting up the car. Looking back at the series of events with the rapid charge the ammeter after I installed the new voltage regulator, then the ammeters neutral state within 5 minutes. I suspect I have a faulty voltage regulator again.

Any other thoughts?





1964 GT Hawk soon to be R2 Clone

skyway
05-21-2007, 01:31 PM
My first test in a "no charge" situation is to undo the two regulator connections and stick them together. If that makes the guage show a charge (or you can hear the alternator working) it usually means the regulator is bad. Also those electronic regulators can act funny in REALLY cold weather.

John Kirchhoff
05-21-2007, 02:07 PM
Electronic voltage regulators are pretty sturdy devices unless you short them out, drive over them or beat them with a hammer. The first thing I'd try would be to fire it up and check to see that you have in the neighborhood of 12 volts at the field coil wire terminal. If so, that means the regulator is good and sending juice to the alternator. If not, make sure the regulator is well grounded by making metal to metal on the mounting tabs or shell. Also make sure you're getting 12 volts to the regulator. If so but still no regulator output, disconnect the hot wire going to the regulator and using something like a tail light bulb, make sure you're actually getting some current (amperage) through the wire. Testing meters use very little current and sometimes what shows as 12 volts fizzles out to nearly nothing when more current is drawn. If the regulator still doesn't put out anything, then that's probably the problem. If the regulator tests out ok, then it's likely the alternator. To confirm that, run a hot wire directly to the field terminal of teh alternator, bypassing the regulator. If the alternator then charges (you should hear the belt squeak more or look at the ammeter), you can pronounce the regulator as being dead.

I'm assuming the shop tested the alternator for output only and didn't take it apart. Were it mine, I'd suspect worn brushes. I've had them charge fine, totally quit and maybe or maybe they wouldn't start charging again until stopped and restarted later. Inside the alternator are two little spring loaded carbon brushes that ride on the slip ring, making an electrical connection and energizing the electromagnet necessary to produce current. As the brushes wear, the spring tension becomes less and less and sooner or later what was an intermittent charging failure becomes a permanent one. If you're so inclined, you can split the alternator shell and look at the brushes. They will have a little braided copper wire attaching them to the alternator, so make sure those wires aren't broken or disconnected. If they're around 1/4 inch long or shorter, they're probably done for. Before buying new ones and going to the work or soldering them in, try taking something like a popsickle stick and cut some little square pieces small enough to be inserted into the hole the brush slips into. Or use something like a piece of wooden dowel, tinkertoy or folded up paper. Stick whatever in up to maybe 1/4" and with the alternator reassembled, try it. The spacers added will increase the tension of the spring forcing it to make a better connection. If it now works, you have plenty of time and several miles before you have to get them replaced.

John Kirchhoff
05-21-2007, 02:08 PM
Electronic voltage regulators are pretty sturdy devices unless you short them out, drive over them or beat them with a hammer. The first thing I'd try would be to fire it up and check to see that you have in the neighborhood of 12 volts at the field coil wire terminal. If so, that means the regulator is good and sending juice to the alternator. If not, make sure the regulator is well grounded by making metal to metal on the mounting tabs or shell. Also make sure you're getting 12 volts to the regulator. If so but still no regulator output, disconnect the hot wire going to the regulator and using something like a tail light bulb, make sure you're actually getting some current (amperage) through the wire. Testing meters use very little current and sometimes what shows as 12 volts fizzles out to nearly nothing when more current is drawn. If the regulator still doesn't put out anything, then that's probably the problem. If the regulator tests out ok, then it's likely the alternator. To confirm that, run a hot wire directly to the field terminal of teh alternator, bypassing the regulator. If the alternator then charges (you should hear the belt squeak more or look at the ammeter), you can pronounce the regulator as being dead.

I'm assuming the shop tested the alternator for output only and didn't take it apart. Were it mine, I'd suspect worn brushes. I've had them charge fine, totally quit and maybe or maybe they wouldn't start charging again until stopped and restarted later. Inside the alternator are two little spring loaded carbon brushes that ride on the slip ring, making an electrical connection and energizing the electromagnet necessary to produce current. As the brushes wear, the spring tension becomes less and less and sooner or later what was an intermittent charging failure becomes a permanent one. If you're so inclined, you can split the alternator shell and look at the brushes. They will have a little braided copper wire attaching them to the alternator, so make sure those wires aren't broken or disconnected. If they're around 1/4 inch long or shorter, they're probably done for. Before buying new ones and going to the work or soldering them in, try taking something like a popsickle stick and cut some little square pieces small enough to be inserted into the hole the brush slips into. Or use something like a piece of wooden dowel, tinkertoy or folded up paper. Stick whatever in up to maybe 1/4" and with the alternator reassembled, try it. The spacers added will increase the tension of the spring forcing it to make a better connection. If it now works, you have plenty of time and several miles before you have to get them replaced.

John Kirchhoff
05-21-2007, 02:10 PM
sorry about the two replys, stupid computer testing my patience!

studebaker-R2-4-me
05-21-2007, 03:00 PM
Thanks for the information, John. I went out to try out some additional electrical tests and noticed my Fuel pump leaking like a sieve around the bottom gasket! I haven't the time or patience today to even look at the bane of my existance. It seems my normal due course,... fix one leak and you get another.

1964 GT Hawk soon to be R2 Clone

sbca96
05-21-2007, 05:03 PM
The information was SO good, the computer posted it twice.;)

Tom

'63 Avanti, zinc plated drilled & slotted 03 Mustang Cobra 13" front disc/98 GT rear brakes, 03 Cobra 17" wheels, GM alt, 97 Z28 leather seats, soon: 97 Z28 T-56 6-spd, Ported heads w/SST full flow valves, 'R3' 276 cam, Edelbrock AFB Carb, GM HEI distributor, 8.8mm plug wires

John Kirchhoff
05-21-2007, 05:17 PM
We all think of electricity as being a spark of some sort, well I once read that electricity is really nothing more than smoke. Yep. You have all these smoke filled wires running here and there under the hood and dash that power all sorts of things. When one of those electrical components fails, usually the failure is immediately preceded by smoke coming out of it. Kind of like a tire; when the wire or component springs a leak and lets the smoke escape, it ceases to function. Like they say, where there's smoke there's fire, which is particulary true when speaking of spark plugs. So the next time your car doesn't start, chances are all the smoke has escaped from the plug wires and most likely it escaped out the exhaust pipe because that's where you usually find smoke.

And just remember that your Stude is like your child; they can be very trying at times when you're raising them, but one of these days you'll be very proud of what you have and you'll have forgotten all about those vexing times. Well, maybe not have forgotten them, but at least you'll be able to talk about them without having to chug a bottle of Prozac.

vegas paul
05-21-2007, 05:21 PM
smoke = electricity... Sounds like Kirchoff's new law (what's he smoking?)

Las Vegas, NV
'51 Champion Business Coupe G899965 10G-Q4-1434
http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s144/vegas_paul/graciestude.jpghttp://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s144/vegas_paul/1462673_2_350.jpg

studebaker-R2-4-me
05-22-2007, 08:46 PM
I managed to fix my Fuel pump leak and then looked at the charging circuit again. I confirmed the new electronic voltage regulator cave in after ten minutes use last friday. I found that the ignition wire at the regulator had voltage and current (I hooked up my new fan motor which i have not installed yet). I then checked for voltage at the field side of the regulator and had 0 volts. I then connected the field wire to the ignition wire and checked my Ammeter proving the alternator is still ok. I will be bringing back the voltage regulator to have it replaced

Thanks again
http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o278/studebaker-r2-4-me/Hawk-1.jpg

1964 GT Hawk soon to be R2 Clone

John Kirchhoff
05-22-2007, 11:03 PM
Good to hear! Before you put the new one on, you might give it a good talking to...maybe threaten to beat it to a pulp with a sledge hammer if it doesn't work as expected. Hey, works for me!

studebaker-R2-4-me
05-23-2007, 09:49 AM
I just replaced the voltage regulator. I took the Hawk out for a spin and blew another regulator. I have resolved that I must have a intermittent short in the alternator. It think that the vibration of the running engine once and a while shorts the field wire. The Alternator rewind shop will look at the alternator and fix it tomorrow.

Does anybody have a prestolite part number for a 64 Alternator? The alternator shop would like to see if he could find a replacement before he rewinds and replaces the bearings.

1964 GT Hawk soon to be R2 Clone

sbca96
05-23-2007, 12:23 PM
You could try my Honda alternator swap....

http://www.studebaker-info.org/tech/Alternator/Honda/hondaalt.html

Tom


quote:Originally posted by studebaker-R2-4-me
Does anybody have a prestolite part number for a 64 Alternator?

John Kirchhoff
05-23-2007, 03:36 PM
I've been thinking about your delimma this morning. I'm sure no Thomas Edison, but I don't think a short in the alternator is frying your voltage regulator. In the alternator, you have the possibility of two types of electrical short circuits, internal and external. An internal short in the field coil because of insulating material (varnish) breakdown is going to result in greatly reduced voltage output, like around 11.25 volts max regardless how much juice is applied to the field coil. An external short between the field and the case is most likely going to fry the field coil. An internal short on the rotor winding is also going to result in a diminished or no magnetic field produced resulting in little or no output and an external short will fry that winding, rendering the whole works dead. My experience has been that internal shorts are permanent and not intermittent (such as worn brushes are) and external shorts usually fail because of Kirchhoff's New Law; the smoke escapes.

Most if not all modern electronic voltage regulators have internal protection in the form of an internal feedback circuit to keep from frying the output transistor should a dead short occur in the field wire or winding. However, I know that does little to explain why the regulators keep going up in smoke.

I might ask several questions. Are you sure the wire from the input side of the regulator is connected to a switched circuit? What configuration is the voltage regulator? Is it the same shape and size as the old mechanical Delco Remy regulators with 4 terminals (approximately 2.5 X 3 X 4"), is it pretty much the same size and configuration as the Chrysler-Prestolite two terminal regulators (approximately 2 X 2 X 3") or something along the line of the later model electronic regulators with the back side poured full of wax? Is the case of the regulator grounded well onto the firewall or other such place? Concerning the second regulator, did it charge for a bit before fizzling out and if so, did it charge full tilt until it croaked, full charge dwindling off some then pooping out or something in between? When it turned up its toes, was it a sudden death or kind of a lingering one? I know that's a lot of questions to answer, but problems such as yours really annoy me, especially when the cause remains hidden.

And there's always Tom's suggestion, screw the whole works and put on an internally regulated one. I figure when you get tired of swimming upstream, sometimes getting out and walking is more productive and can certainly cause fewer ulcers.

studebaker-R2-4-me
05-23-2007, 05:10 PM
John, all 3 regulators were Chrysler-Prestolite type two terminal. Ignition and field terminals. The original was a mechanical, first new regulator's back was filled with epoxy the second one was riveted shut but was electronic also. I believe the ignition wire is switched but carries voltage and current. The electronic regulator was grounded very well with a shiny bolt I even connected an additional ground wire under the horn relay bolt.

As I connected the 2nd new voltage regulator and fired up the engine. The dash ammeter was in the charging position. The battery has enough charge to easily start the engine. I jumped into the car and took it for a spin thinking I will be able to attend a local cruise night. I got 4 blocks from my home and the needle jumped more positive then dropped like a rock to -10 Amp for just a second and returned to the neutral position. I put on my headlights and found the ammeter was discharging at the -10A position.

Here is what happened at the alternator shop. I gave back the 2nd VR then took the ignition wire and connected it to the field wire. I thought for the 5 blocks that I am going it would just charge my battery anyway. So I pull out the parking stall and am watching my ammeter gauge in the 10-15A positive charging position. I noticed as I am backing out of the stall the ammeter takes a hard dive to -35 A then back to the neutral position and again the positive 10-15A position. This occurred with no Voltage regulator installed. This sure leads me to believe I have a intermittent fault in the alternator field coil.

I am removing the alternator tomorrow morning and bringing to the rewind shop . He will bench test it AGAIN and bang it around to simulate the vibrations of the engine, if He finds something he will take it apart, rewind it. replace the front and rear bearings. BTW The alternator shop found a rebuilt Prestolite ALE 5001 in Edmonton but the repair will be cheaper than the rebuilt. I might even buy that GLE 5003 Avanti alternator on Ebay and use rewinded alternator as a back up for my R2 engine install later this summer.

I'm really fed up with this!

Allen






1964 GT Hawk soon to be R2 Clone

sbca96
05-23-2007, 05:28 PM
Unfortunately, the Honda option still retains the Chrysler voltage
regulator, but it would eliminate the alternator as the problem. It
is also a bolt-on (so you could TRY it and return depending on the
place you buy it froms warrenty rules;))

Tom


quote:Originally posted by John Kirchhoff
And there's always Tom's suggestion, screw the whole works and put on an internally regulated one.

gordr
05-23-2007, 09:02 PM
Based on Allen's latest post, it sure does look like there is an intermittent short. It MIGHT be the alternator itself, or it could be elsewhere along the ignition circuit.

BTW, when dealing with alternators, remember the field is the ROTOR, not the stator. The rotor has a pair of slip rings with brushes riding on them, and those brushes carry only a few amps of field current. The heavy current from the stator goes through the 6 diodes, and out via the large stud on the alternator case.

A short in the rotor, or in the brushes feeding it, might blow the regulator, and because the regulator "field" terminal can only supply a few amps, the wires likely won't get smoked. If the stator, or stator terminal becomes shorted, either you will blow diodes, or the heavy wire going to the ammeter will get hot and let the smoke out.

If there is an intermittent short in the alternator, my best guess would be the brushholder is the culprit.

A mechanical regulator may be a little more resistant to destruction in this situation than a solid-state one. Solid-state components usually go into thermal runaway and die in big hurry if their limits are exceeded.

One test that you could try: disconnect the regulator, and run a pair of leads into the car from the wires going to the "ign" and "field" terminals. Connect these leads to a sealed-beam headlamp bulb. Drive the car, and see what happens. Normal field current should be scarcely be enough to make the seal beam filament glow a dull red. If the seal beam suddenly lights up to full brightness, then you have a short in the alternator, or maybe the harness leading to it.

Gord Richmond, within Weasel range of the Alberta Badlands

GTtim
05-23-2007, 10:16 PM
I had a electronic voltage regulator, it lasted about a week. I blew it when I was messing around and accidentally shorted the wire at the alternator. Then later, I had the alternator at the shop and the guy was talking about the peculiarities of the Prestolite alternator. He mentioned that there was a slight weakness built into the unit that could result in occasional short circuits. Of course I can't remember specifically what he was pointing out, but I think maybe it had to do with the plastic piece that holds the main wire that gets pushed onto the terminal at the top. I use the traditional old style voltage regulator, they are more resistant to the little shorts I cause when I'm messing around under the hood and forget to disconnect the battery. I also think they are more period correct with needle jumping/jiggling. That way I know things are working.

Tim K.
'64 R2 GT Hawk

studebaker-R2-4-me
05-23-2007, 10:33 PM
Tim,

That field terminal insulator is quite loose on my Alternator. It does not fall out but is easily pulled out of the alternator case. The wire inside the case that attaches to the alternator field terminal is NOT insulated. I believe this is where my problem stems from whether it be right behind the terminal or at the rotor brushes as Gord Richmond suggested. I have confidence in this rebuild shop and I am sure he does not want to see me again for a while. I will find out in the next couple of days

1964 GT Hawk soon to be R2 Clone

John Kirchhoff
05-23-2007, 11:14 PM
I think you guys might be on to the problem...an external short at the field connection. That would explain the momentary discharge with the field connected directly. As you daughter would say, "You go guys!"

studebaker-R2-4-me
05-23-2007, 11:44 PM
I just pulled my alternator off to bring down to the rewind shop in the morning (He opens at 8:00am) I looked in the vent opening at the rear of the alternator with my trusty micro flashlight and noticed the uninsulated field wire was so close to touching or was touching the stator winding. If this wire is touching the shellac coated winding and hitting it long enough it could potentially wear off the shellac and short it out intermittently like driving over a manhole cover. It is all a mystery to me anyway and there is no looking back now. I getting this alternator rewound, repaired, and new bearings installed. I am going to ask him to put as much copper in the winding as will fit. I may walk out of there with a higher output alternator.

1964 GT Hawk soon to be R2 Clone

studebaker-R2-4-me
05-24-2007, 11:13 AM
Here's the latest. I'm back with the alternator which we could not find any faults in. We ran it for half an hour up to 4800 RPM with the voltage regulator I would be installing. We did move the field wire away from the stator winding and I siliconed the insulator into place so that it would not move around. I've undone the wiring harness and found nothing wrong in the power lead or the field wire. Taped it back up and installed the alternator and voltage regulator. I decided before I start the car up to eliminate the ammeter and remove the #10AWG lead from the solenoid to the stereo. I ran the car and the everything is working fine. I ran the car for 1/2 an hour and the regulator is putting out 13 Volts at Idle. when I increase the rpm the regulator is putting out about 7-8 volts. I guess I just have to bite the bullet and reconnect the ammeter. If it pops the voltage regulator maybe it is shorting out once in a while. If that proves ok I will hook the stereo amplifier again. Solved not yet but working on it.

1964 GT Hawk soon to be R2 Clone

gordr
05-24-2007, 12:09 PM
quote:Originally posted by studebaker-R2-4-me

.... I decided before I start the car up to eliminate the ammeter and remove the #10AWG lead from the solenoid to the stereo. I ran the car and the everything is working fine. I ran the car for 1/2 an hour and the regulator is putting out 13 Volts at Idle. when I increase the rpm the regulator is putting out about 7-8 volts. ...

1964 GT Hawk soon to be R2 Clone



You sure about those voltages, Allen? 13 volts at idle is normal, but 7 to 8 volts sure is wrong. And if you meant 17 - 18 volts, that's way too high. Max should be about 15 volts. And it may be "splitting hairs", but it's not the regulator that puts out. The alternator puts out, according to what the regulator requires of it. (I mention this because sometimes you can overlook a problem if you describe it to yourself in incorrect terms.) If you really are getting 17-18 volts, I'd be suspecting that you have a ground problem, and the alternator is not "seeing" the same ground as the regulator.

Taking the ammeter out of the circuit does not accomplish anything. By your previous posts, the ammeter was indicating some strange current draws alright. Point is: it WAS indicating. If the ammeter were bad, it would not indicate, and the smoke would come out. if there is a short, it HAS to be on the "downstream" side of the ammeter, because the ammeter was reading it OK.

Double-check your grounds: alternator to engine block, engine block to body, battery to engine block, regulator to body. There should be a ground wire in the harness from the regulator to the alternator, too, IIRC.

Gord Richmond, within Weasel range of the Alberta Badlands

curt
05-24-2007, 12:19 PM
Be syre the alternator and regulator are properly grounded. It sounds like a ground, leakage( short), or heat expanding something to cause the problem. Is the switch on th edash wired properly? All opinions as to possible source of the problem.

John Kirchhoff
05-24-2007, 03:17 PM
Allen, I'm still stuck thinking about how the ammetter dived to -35 when you had the alternator wired directly, bypassing the regulator.
For it yo do that, there had to be a pretty much a direct short momentarily somewhere between the ammeter terminal and the stator windings in the alternator. It wouldn't have to be in the alternator itself, but could have been in any of the wiring in between which unfortunately covers just about everything. Anything that will move the ammeter needle regardless of whether the engine is running or not could be suspect such as radio, lights, etc. The ammeter shouldn't be causing any problem, so I'd reconnect it and see what's happening as you drive.

How long have you had the stereo and amp hooked up? Any correlation between installing it and the charging problems? When playing the radio are there ever any loud pops or thump sounds that might indicate a capacitor shorting out and suddenly drawing a surge of juice for just a fraction of a second? If you still have the charge-discharge surges, were it me, I'd hot wire the ignition and the alternator to see if anything changes. If is charges constantly and doesn't have the quick ups and downs, I'd hot wire the regulator into the system and try it. If still ok, I'd try adding loads one at a time, like the rats nest of wires at the ingition switch one at a time to see if any one of those changes things. Hang in there!

studebaker-R2-4-me
05-24-2007, 10:20 PM
John / Gord,

The voltages are what I was reading between the field connection and the negative battery post. I was getting about 11.8V at the regultors field terminal and then down to 7-8 Volts. Mind you the idle of the engine is really bad right now. I have never done a tune up since I've owned the car and was reluctant to spend any money on this engine with the new R2 waiting to be installed. I have decided not the let the summer slip by and not drive the car so the R2 install is going to happen this coming winter which will enable me to dress the engine compartment, repair the leaks in the power steering system etc.

I went out today to buy the tune up items and will be pulling the carb to have it rebuilt on Monday. I will test these voltages again after the tune up.

I believe the -35 Amp reading was when the internal field wire touched the case of the alternator. This has been corrected by bending the wire away from the stator winding and case. I then siliconed the field wire insulator to the alternator case. I think this was the culprit all along.

I will be connecting the ammeter again this weekend after I get the engine running better and then the stereo amplifier. The amplifier is 17 years old but seems to work fine. When I blew the second regulator the amplifier and stereo were not turned on thus I believe eliminating them as a blown regulator problem.

As for the much needed tune up:

I just found my timing light which I have not seen in years and found the timing was way out.

I just pulled the distributor cap and ignition points were not/barely opening. The distributor was dusted with copper fillings and the top of the rotor and distributor cap was quite scored. The condenser wire was also loose. I will be doing a tune up this weekend (plugs, condenser, rotor, distributor cap and the carburetor rebuild. The carburetor rebuilder in Toronto is I'm told the best around Southern Ontario with 3 day turn around. It's going in Monday.

I hope my nightmare is just about over and may just drive down to South bend for the meet.

Allen



1964 GT Hawk soon to be R2 Clone

StudeRich
05-25-2007, 03:13 AM
Allen; more (good) news. I hear you saying lots of brown dust in the Dist. that always indicates worn out bushings in the case and worn out centrifugal weights and the upper shaft with the pegs for the weights. That would be the cause of inconsistent and rough idle/poor performance!

Just remove the breaker plate and see whats under there, points, cond, rotor and cap is not going to do it! [xx(]

Sorry to tell you, but forewarned is still better than the alternatives!

StudeRich
Studebakers Northwest
Ferndale, WA

John Kirchhoff
05-25-2007, 04:17 PM
Get that thing tuned up correctly and you might find the old gal isn't in such bad shape after all!

studebaker-R2-4-me
05-25-2007, 05:53 PM
AHH! Friday night. It sounds like the old girl is getting a fresh Dual Point Distributor tonight off my R2 engine that is sitting in the corner of the shop. In short order I will know if I even need a carburetor rebuild. (I bet the carburetor is just fine) Then it's back to the electrical for some more tests:D

Allen

1964 GT Hawk soon to be R2 Clone

studebaker-R2-4-me
05-26-2007, 06:57 PM
I have my car running again after installing the dual point distributor. It seems somewhere along the history of the car the Cam retaining spring and Oil wick went missing. This allowed the cam to float scoring the distributor cap and rotor. I don't know if the cam had slipped out of the weight spring spacer when I pulled off the rotor or if it had actually been operating with a 30 degree separation. I could move the rotor from 6 o clock to 10 o clock while trying to find TDC. When finally decided where TDC was after sticking my finger in cylinder #1. I pulled the old distributor and installed the new one. I could not get the car to fire so Roly came over this afternoon to rescue me. When investigating what was wrong with the distributor we found the weights not in the two slots opening in the cam. Anyway the engine is running like a dream.:D

While in the shop the voltage regulator was working correctly for the longest time. I hooked back up the amp meter and took it for a drive. 4 blocks down the road I popped it again!

Back in the shop I hooked up the ohm meter to the field wire connection on the alternator and found some interesting readings while tapping the alternator. From the field connection I was reading 5.0 ohms tapping the case i would read up from 5, then 200 ohmns then to OL. Sounds to me that field connection is going to ground once in a while.

Allen




1964 GT Hawk soon to be R2 Clone

sbca96
05-26-2007, 07:22 PM
What a pain-in-the-@ss. Is this the standard 63-64 Hawk/Lark Alt that
all used or the special Avanti R1/R2 high output type? If its the one
thats common, have you considered trying the Honda Alt? I am not sure
of the current price - but it might be worth a shot - its an easy swap
back to the Stude one over. No rewiring.

Tom

StudeRich
05-27-2007, 03:49 AM
My experience has been, when new the Prestolite alternator lasted at least 5 to 6 years or more, BUT once I let a Alternator shop send the rotor out for rewinding, several of these units never were the same again! :(

They are the kiss of death to these things! I have gotten new factory replacement rotors and they worked WAY better. Unfortunately, today I would not think any would be left!:(

StudeRich
Studebakers Northwest
Ferndale, WA

Dick Steinkamp
05-27-2007, 12:54 PM
quote:Originally posted by StudeRich
I have gotten new factory replacement rotors and they worked WAY better. Unfortunately, today I would not think any would be left!:(



I had a new rotor put in my '63 Hawk's alternator by Industrial Electric and Machine at the foot of C street in Bellingham, WA (800) 290-8848. I believe it was a new, factory rotor. Ask for Ken.

http://thenobot.org/images/s2d/s2d_01.jpg

studebaker-R2-4-me
05-27-2007, 05:18 PM
I was at our Hamilton Chapter meeting today held at the Canadian War Plane Museum (Wow it's a really neat place) http://secure.warplane.com/pages/aboutus_tour.html

After the meeting one of our members loaned me an alternator and regulator to try out. I drove the hawk for over an hour with no troubles. Voltage regulator field connection is at 13.8 volts, battery post to post is 13.8 also, amp meter is charging heavy at 30A at 80MPH, at idle it drops to about 5 Amps.

Kevin just phone me and told me he found another spare alternator and regulator and then offered to sell it to me.

Looks like I now own a working alternator and regulator have this repaired and able to on. Thanks for all the information.

Happy trails

Allen


1964 GT Hawk soon to be R2 Clone

sbca96
05-27-2007, 05:29 PM
Congrats! 13.8 is close to the bottom end of the range, but passable.
you usually want between 13.6 and 14.6 volts, at least thats the rule.

Sounds like the Honda alt would have saved a lot of trouble, whats the
shop that did the work on the old one going to do about this? Sunk a
decent amount of money into that original one.

Tom

studebaker-R2-4-me
05-28-2007, 01:24 AM
Tom, the Alternator shop never did pull the alternator apart and repair it. I stood there watching the oscilloscope voltage meters amp meters on his testing machine for about a half hour. I appeared everything was fine. I was just getting sick of filing out $20.00 every couple of days for a new voltage regulator. I always suspected that alternator. I decided the other night while at our local cruise event to try a new alternator and regulator. sure enough this was the solution all along. I was dealing with a phantom short in my alternator that never showed up during testing. Just like a toothache disappearing when your sitting in the dentist chair.

As for the Honda alternator, that would never happen on my car. As a matter of fact I will not even sit or go to the store with my father in his Honda. I suppose I just refuse to support foreign manufacturers. I one of the few still holding out against the Chinese and others refusing to buy their products. It's getting harder and harder all the time. I'll buy the original equipment when I get the opportunity. I'm more for an authentic look under the hood especially when I get the R2 installed. I would find it hard to do the GM one wire set up.

Thanks for the info at any rate

1964 GT Hawk soon to be R2 Clone

sbca96
05-28-2007, 02:56 AM
Fair enough, though the Honda one looks pretty close to the original
one, and even fits better. I hear yah on keeping it original, I just
use what fits my budget and gets me back running again.;)

Tom

bams50
05-28-2007, 10:12 PM
quote:Originally posted by studebaker-R2-4-me

I suppose I just refuse to support foreign manufacturers. I one of the few still holding out against the Chinese and others refusing to buy their products.


Never fear- There's more that think like you here than you think[^] This topic gets touched on here from time to time and some get a little uncomfortable hearing about those of us living it...[:o)]

As for me, I'll always be a proud supporter of American brands; and hold no ill feelings against those who don't want to do the same. And in the past, Tom has stood up in favor of buying American only whenever possible (which makes the Honda alternator thing seem strange...?;)) So don't be afraid to be a patriot here- good Stude folks will either be with ya or tolerate ya!:D

Robert K. Andrews Owner- IoMT (Island of Misfit Toys!)
Parish, central NY 13131
http://www.cardomain.com/ride/2358680/1

sbca96
05-29-2007, 03:08 AM
Well Robert, my wife and I have 7 cars between us, one Studebaker and
6 GM products, of which 3 were built in Canada (4th Gen F-bodies), one
was built in Texas (B-body), 2 were built in L.A. (2nd and 3rd Gen
F-bodies) - so staying American has been a guide. I will never have
a Japanese car in my driveway regardless of how expensive gas gets, &
after viewing a recent Honda commercial - I am doing pretty good MPG
wise. I saw a commercial for a new Honda that stated "The new fuel
efficent Honda (whatever) at 17 city and 24 highway ...", well my big
Impala SS is rated at 17/25 and actually GETS that rating. My bosses
new Toyota Sienna is rated at 21/28 and he barely gets 22 highway! The
Honda alt came about quite a few years ago, back in the early 90s, I
needed a replacement for a Studebaker Alt that the housing broke. That
is pretty much a deal-breaker for me. I went through MANY books at a
local parts store that let me in the back, and measured more alts than
I want to admit too. When you find something that works as well as it
does, you have to not punch the gift-horse in the mouth. Yah its from
a Honda CVCC - but when you need a part for a 40 year old car, beggars
cant be choosers! As I mentioned though, its an EASY-reversable mod
that doesnt require any reworking of the stock parts. A good, safe
way to get your car back on the road while you source an original.

Tom


quote:Originally posted by bams50
Tom has stood up in favor of buying American only whenever possible (which makes the Honda alternator thing seem strange...?;))