Engine: Frozen/Locked engine (Champion 6)

[DavidValk]

Hi folks,

I'm starting a 53' Champion and the drive train is not looking so hopeful. The car's in neutral (AT) and it looks like the engine is frozen up pretty well. I don't have any history on the car, but it's definitely been sitting for years.

After finally getting my radiator cowling off (had to torch a few of the bolts) I had access to the crank pulley. Unfortunately it was not budging. I pulled the head tonight and this is what I found underneath.

I'd already done some penetrating oil soaks before I pulled the head and now I'm giving it a good soak with acetone/atf

Is there anything I'm forgetting?

Thanks,
-David

[Kdancy]

I have a 53 that was in much the same shape. I would up having to tap (not beat) on the valves as they were frozen in the guides. I also used some heat from torch being very careful to not blow anything up, just heat the valves and such up. The engine cranks right up and runs good now, but if I were running it every day I would do a valve job at the least. I also heated up the oil pan with a heat lamb and drained the old oil out while warm, then put in Delo 400 before starting up. Go ahead and get as much of the surface corrosion off as you can. One and two looks pretty bad.

[Jeff_H]

I think just let it soak for a weak or 2 and top off the penetrating oil regular. At least the bores look like they are mostly free of rust. Unlike the engine in my '53. Head was missing for years and I literally scooped dirt and leaves out of it. I didn't even try taking it apart.

[DavidValk]

Interesting, I'll have to give that a try.

This morning I filled the carb (intake) with penetrating oil and tonight I was able to get a small amount of movement by whanging on the #1 and #3 pistons (with a hunk of 1x4 and a very large hammer) after rapping the valves a bit with a screwdriver handle and a body hammer. That gives me a little hope.

I'll soak it a few more days and see what I can free up. Did you torch the valve heads to red/orange heat or just warm them over a bit?

Also, what did you use to clean the cylinder walls? Without using abrasive pads (a no-no unless you're stripping the block) I don't think I can clear it up completely. I've used plastic scrapers and alcohol/kerosene solvents on newer cars, but I've never ran into anything this crusty.

I have a 53 that was in much the same shape. I would up having to tap (not beat) on the valves as they were frozen in the guides. I also used some heat from torch being very careful to not blow anything up, just heat the valves and such up. The engine cranks right up and runs good now, but it I were running it every day I would do a valve job at the least. I also heated up the oil pan with a heat lamb and drained the old oil out while warm, then put in Delo 400 before starting up. Go ahead and get as much of the surface corrosion off as you can. One and two looks pretty bad.

[jackb]

...don't touch the cylinder bores..if you're not going with a valve job, I wouldn't go beyond wiping down the walls with solvent, then oil.....Don't get too hot with your fire....you just want to break up some of the rust-film....expect some significant wear through the guides and significant oil consumption after you get it running.....don't worry about burning oil....you'll have plenty of money since you're not rebuilding

[Kdancy]

Interesting, I'll have to give that a try.

This morning I filled the carb (intake) with penetrating oil and tonight I was able to get a small amount of movement by whanging on the #1 and #3 pistons (with a hunk of 1x4 and a very large hammer) after rapping the valves a bit with a screwdriver handle and a body hammer. That gives me a little hope.

I'll soak it a few more days and see what I can free up. Did you torch the valve heads to red/orange heat or just warm them over a bit?

Also, what did you use to clean the cylinder walls? Without using abrasive pads (a no-no unless you're stripping the block) I don't think I can clear it up completely. I've used plastic scrapers and alcohol/kerosene solvents on newer cars, but I've never ran into anything this crusty.

I bet your problem is the valves and guides stuck, not the pistons.
I heated until good and hot, not read hot. Kept tapping with a small ball peen, (not my body hammer, I would kill some one for using my body hammer that way(: ---
Cleaned the walls with the solvent mix and red abrasive pad, seemed to work out fine.
Engine has very good oil pressure and no knocks.

[DavidValk]

Thanks for explaining the details on that, I'll let you know how it works out. My ball peen is 3lbs, so my cheapo body hammer was the best thing I had on hand. If I'd spent real money on it I'd take better care of it

I bet your problem is the valves and guides stuck, not the pistons.
I heated until good and hot, not read hot. Kept tapping with a small ball peen, (not my body hammer, I would kill some one for using my body hammer that way(: ---
Cleaned the walls with the solvent mix and red abrasive pad, seemed to work out fine.
Engine has very good oil pressure and no knocks.

[warrlaw1]

Maybe you can pull the starter off, too. Keep those starter bolts. Good luck.

[gordr]

Don't overlook the possibility that the engine may be stuck externally. Jammed starter drive, maybe? I saw a Lark six once that had been jammed solid by mouse nests in the bellhousing and clutch.

Have a helper rock the crankshaft as much as possible while you feel the tops of the pistons and adjacent cylinder wall with an educated finger. If there is the tiniest bit of movement on a given piston, you will feel it. If all the pistons feel the least bit free, it's a good chance the seized area is elsewhere.

[DavidValk]

Tonight I gave the pistons another 1x4 beatdown and heated (propane, still black)/tapped the valves for a bit. I also refilled the intake with PB Blaster). My best guess at this point is frozen cylinder(s) to piston rings. I got them to move just a bit yesterday but today I didn't see any movement. The oil sure got dirty though (dissolved rust) after I beat on it.

I also checked the starter and rocked the crank bolt back and forth with a breaker bar (loosened it up before exclusively pushing it to the right/tightening). Then I refilled the intake with PB Blaster).

My best guess at this point is frozen cylinder to piston rings. I got them to move just a bit yesterday, but now they're locked up again in either direction.

From what I've been able to research, if I want to get an unstuck engine without broken things in it I'll be rocking/beating the cylinders for a week or two + some form of penetrating oil. So I'll try and be patient with this. It will take a while to fix get the car titled/registered anyhow. I just wish I knew if the AT behind it was any good. From what I understand this was the weak link in a 53 drivetrain and an expensive thing to get rebuilt.

For the sake of future readers, here are all of the suggestions (including yours) I was able to bring up
==============================

SIEZED ENGINE FAQ ANSWERS

FIRST STEPS
================
Is a Manual Transmission? Check the clutch/clutch plate, they could be rusted together
Is the car in neutral?
Is the starter motor siezed?

---------------

Soak the bores and valve stems with a 50/50 acetone/ATF mix overnight. Pick a piston about half way down the bore

for the most crank shaft leverage and beat the crap out of it with a hammer against a wood block on the piston top,

Repeat on the other pistons if needed. You may see the atf mix get all rusty looking as you knock the rust off the

bores.

---------------

have a 53 that was in much the same shape. I would up having to tap (not beat) on the valves as they were frozen in

the guides. I also used some heat from torch being very careful to not blow anything up, just heat the valves and

such up. The engine cranks right up and runs good now, but it I were running it every day I would do a valve job at

the least. I also heated up the oil pan with a heat lamb and drained the old oil out while warm, then put in Delo

400 before starting up. Go ahead and get as much of the surface corrosion off as you can. One and two looks pretty

bad.

-------------
soak bores with penetrating oil of choice
rock crank bolt back and forth with a cheater bar (daily or more)
2x4 + BFH (5lb sledge)
-------------
ALT: a *hardwood* dowel would be better (deflect less energy from the hammer)
ALT: same as above but with turned wooden dowel approximately the bore size of the cylinder and a coffee can with a

hole in it (deflects off center blows)
-------------
TIME---penetrating oil can take up to two weeks to be effective on really stuck engines, even with daily beatings
-------------

Acetone + ATF (50/50) soak
Kerosene Soak
Penetrating oil Soak (KROIL/PB Blaster)
Diesel oil Soak
Brake fluid Soak

Acid Ph Soak
----------------------
Vinegar soak
Cola Soak

Base Ph Soak
----------------------
Lye Soak
Engine Degreaser (can destroy aluminum/rubber if not neutralized in under 3-4 minutes)
+
Heating (mapp torch, rosebud oxy, burning oil in the cylinder bore)
Cooling (Dry Ice, R-13 spray, CO-2 fire extinguisher)


===========
Destructive options

Muriatic Acid Soak (destroys aluminum)
air chisel

------------
You are right about the rosebud, but liquify? Heat really helps, fast heat. I call it freindly fire. You need to get

in there and heat the piston fast. If you heat it slow you get to much heat into the block and it does no good. Heat

the piston, and let it cool, then hammer it out. No matter what you do these pistons will have to be hammered out.

Get a big hammer and swing it like you have a pair... Just stay on the pin boss...
Jeff

------------

Are the lifters in those really right there at the deck, or is that an optical illusion?

I have redone a few old tractors that were stuck really bad. Here's what seemed to work best. Turn the block so one

bank of cylinders is straight up, then stick an old rag in each bore, and pour your favorite diesel/brake

fluid/kerosene/used oil into each cylinder. The rags are your "wicks". Light 'em up, and let them burn. This will

heat the block up slow enough so that you don't need to be concerned with cracking. Of course this works a lot

better when you don't have pistons with holes in them, so not sure if you can get around that little issue. I guess

you could bolt a head back on and heat it up this way from the bottom. You'd actually be exposing more of the piston

to heat this way, so it might work.

One old John Deere that I freed up took a couple of days of this treatment before I could knock the pistons out, but

enough heat/cool cycles should break them loose. Rotate block and repeat on other side.....

==========

Mix of a little gas in used oil and lit it in the bore... Let it get hot, then snuff flame and let the oil seep.

Not talking hot enough to melt anything, just get hot hot hot.

----------



==============================



Maybe you can pull the starter off, too. Keep those starter bolts. Good luck.

[DavidValk]

Success!




The first week I soaked the cylinders in penetrating oil and occasionally hammered cylinder heads/rocked the drive pulley bolt. This appeared to give zero results (well, there was some rust coming up from the rings/cylinders but it was still completely locked up)

At that point it was clear to me that I needed to get more aggressive. I pulled out my OA torch and started heating piston heads. The first two nights I did it with a yellow flame (increasing duration), last night I did it with the white flame (increasing intensity), each time soaking the heads in a mixture of acetone and penetrating oil afterward.

At this point my 3lb hammer had a cracked handle, so today I turned a relieved wooden post, wrapped the middle with cloth and duct tape to seal it around the inside the cylinder around the pin boss and gave it around 10 hits my 5lb sledge.

Finally! Some (1/4") of movement.

Then I hit the drive bolt with my breaker bar + a 3' cheater and things genuinely came apart. It was quite sticky at first but I was finally able to rock the engine and soak oil past all of the rings. Everything looks pretty clean. There's some discoloration on the cylinders where the rings got rusted on, but I can't feel it and the valves/gears are moving freely.

---


Earlier this week I also pulled the carb, it was also seized. Things were frozen tight around the choke valve and the throttle valve to the upper carb.

The automatic choke wasn't hard to fix with a little penetrating oil, but the throttle valve was something else. Even with dissimilar metals (brass and iron) the axle had been completely rusted into place. Spraying oil didn't do it, heating didn't do it. Eventually I heated both of the ears to red-heat and was able to separate the top and bottom of the carb. Then (after three days of soaking it in a bath of PB-blaster and acetone) I was able to un-seize the throttle valve.with a little persuasion.

---

At this point it's time to order a carb kit and a head gasket...and a water pump since that's locked up too. Who's the best source for this kind of stuff?

Thanks,
David



PS.

It looks like I'm getting body parts too! Bob has a drivers' side vent window I'm picking up later this week and I sent Randy a check for some interior door handles.

[kurtruk]

Glad to see you stuck with it. Is that a hole in the #1 piston top?

Are you familiar with Studebakers West? They're in Redwood City. Practically you backyard! They should have the parts you seek.

[DavidValk]

Glad to see you stuck with it. Is that a hole in the #1 piston top?

Are you familiar with Studebakers West? They're in Redwood City. Practically you backyard! They should have the parts you seek.

That's the factory divot, the pistons are just freakishly clean. I did burn off a couple of the fine casting lines but it's very minor and shouldn't cause detonation. Once I've got everything buttoned back up I'll do a compression test and go from there. Visually things are looking good.

Also thanks for your suggestion, they (Studebakers West) are close by and do have water pumps and head gaskets, no carb kits though, at least in their catalog.

-David

[warrlaw1]

Congratulations. Gonna be all down hill from here!

[DavidValk]

So the head is finally back on...

I also put the water pump and carb back in. The water pump was pretty screwed up but a week-long soak in all the penetrating fluids I could muster cleared up most of the rust. I'm sure the seals are shot now (acetone will do that) but I can at least test the drive-train with it and use it as a rebuildable core. The carb also needed a good soaking (and heating, and a little hammering)...but it's working mechanically now and I can sort out the seals/float later.

I've got my missing body parts too! Randy sent me some (perfect!) interior door handles and Bob hooked me up with a vent window that's working fine after a bit of soaking. I've still got plenty of body issues to sort out (front fender rust/hood reinforcement/top dents/interior/glass) but that can all wait until I've got it running again.

Unfortunately the starter is also frozen, so I'll have to pull that off and tear it apart...once it finally stops raining over here.

Cheers,
-David

53' Champion