Electrical: '65-'66 Daytona starter wiring (high torque -missing wire)

[wittsend]

I've got a '64 Daytona with a Chevy 283 swap. Recently I swapped out the 283 for a 350. Since the 350 engine came with a high torque starter I elected to use it. The solenoid on the 283 starter originally had:

1. Battery 12V + cable (large upper lug) connected with a red wire to power 12V + to the car.

2. A second large lug (lower) to connect directly to the starter.

3. A small lug White/red wire to energize the solenoid.

4. A small lug Green/black wire (to bypass the pink resistance wire) and send 12V to the coil only when the solenoid is energized.

My problem is the high torque GM starter is missing the connection for the Green/black wire as it was used in a Fuel Injected - Electronic Ignition car. Initially I connected the Green/black wire to the lower lug that only received power when the solenoid was energized. I figured this was only sending 12V to the coil when trying to start the car... (or was it?)

Then... (whack --- me slapping my head) I realized this was also pulling current to the starter through the linked pink resistance wire when the ignition was simply on!!! No wonder the coil had less than half a volt and the car wouldn't start.

Does it seem logical to just connect the Green/black wire to the White/red wire? This way the coil will still get 12V during cranking, but release voltage back through the pink resistance wire in the run position.
Stupid me again. This will only energize the solenoid and attempt to keep cranking. I now realize I need a relay... - or read later posts

The only drawback I see is that the 12V to the coil will go:

From the battery - through the ignition switch - then to the coil

Previously it went from the battery (via the solenoid) directly to the coil. There might be some voltage drop, but I doubt less that the resistance wire.

BTW I got it running by simply running 12V from battery to the coil +, but this is not a condition I should retain (I'm running a Pertronix module). Any input appreciated.

Thanks, Tom

[JimC]

I don't know if this should be deleted. Someone else out there might one day have this issue, and with you having worked it out here on screen, it could put them in the right direction.

[rusty65]

Had the same situation with my vehicle when I installed the hi-torque starter.I finally contacted tech support at Tuff-Stuff (ordered from Jeg's) and he set me straight. I didn't need to connect one wire (I forget which one) so I just folded it and electrical taped the heck out of it.

[wittsend]

I pulled the back off of each solenoid (original and high torque). I simply drilled a hole in the high torque's plastic cap and mounted the springy copper contact and bolt from the original starter. Problem solved. The hole needs to be square, but the correct size drill and a small bit in a Dremel gets it done.

A car might start without the full 12 volts momentarily to the coil, but under an undesirable condition it may not. But, as some have stated it works for them.
Tom

[leyrret]

If your connect the bypass wire to the start wire the ignition will be grounded through the solenoid wire. If you need the wire I would suggest a separate relay operated by the start wire.

[N8N]

If your connect the bypass wire to the start wire the ignition will be grounded through the solenoid wire. If you need the wire I would suggest a separate relay operated by the start wire.

just change the end on the bypass wire and put it on the great big lug that goes to the starter motor (not the one to which the +ive battery cable connects)

nate

[wittsend]

Nate,
"just change the end on the bypass wire and put it on the great big lug that goes to the starter motor (not the one to which the +ive battery cable connects) "

Nate, I did exactly that. Yes that did provide 12 volts to the coil - when starting (as is needed). However, as soon as the key was released to the "run" position all the current was drawn from the pink ignition wire to the starter - via the Green/black bypass wire. Things got real hot and the coil was getting less than half a volt.

At first it seems logical to get 12 volts to the coil - only when starting. But, the same connectivity also sends the current destine only for the coil to the starter also..., drawing down the current.

Basically the options are:

1. use the correct 4 lug solenoid.

2. use a relay triggered off the starter to send 12 volts only when starting.

3. don't use the 12 volt when starting and hope the 9-ish volts will be sufficient to start the car under any condition.

4. to run a diode configuration in the bypass line so the current flows to the coil, but not back to the starter.

Tom

[N8N]

Nate,
"just change the end on the bypass wire and put it on the great big lug that goes to the starter motor (not the one to which the +ive battery cable connects) "

Nate, I did exactly that. Yes that did provide 12 volts to the coil - when starting (as is needed). However, as soon as the key was released to the "run" position all the current was drawn from the pink ignition wire to the starter - via the Green/black bypass wire. Things got real hot and the coil was getting less than half a volt.

At first it seems logical to get 12 volts to the coil - only when starting. But, the same connectivity also sends the current destine only for the coil to the starter also..., drawing down the current.

Basically the options are:

1. use the correct 4 lug solenoid.

2. use a relay triggered off the starter to send 12 volts only when starting.

3. don't use the 12 volt when starting and hope the 9-ish volts will be sufficient to start the car under any condition.

4. to run a diode configuration in the bypass line so the current flows to the coil, but not back to the starter.

Tom

Ah... you're right, you do need a diode or a relay in there. d'oh! you'll need a diode rated for the current draw of the coil under starting conditions, which may be problematic... might be easier to use a Bosch "ice cube" and be done with it.

Is it a standard GM solenoid? there ought to have been one made with the right wiring configuration. But likely not since the introduction of HEI which would not have required same. so you're looking for a late 60's early 70's part most likely.

nate

[wittsend]

The the lower solenoid copper lug that attaches to the copper strip coming out of the starter is quite long. It needs to reach to the more rearward connection on the high torque starter.

Initially I was going to "blend" the two solenoids by using the rear plastic cover from the regular onto the the high torque. But, there were some differences. In the end it was easier just to drill the hole in the high torque and screw on the contact piece for the coil bypass from the regular.

All it is is a small springy copper piece of metal that looks like a comma. When the solenoid activates the plunger comes back and moves a copper washer between the large upper and lower lugs to complete the circuit. The springy strip of copper also contacts at this time to send 12 volts to the coil. Once the starting is complete and the solenoid plunger retracts the connection to the coil is again broke.
Tom

[1954khardtop]

Do you need the resistor wire if you're running the pertronix? I thought the resistor was to save the points? If I remember correctly I left the ballast resistor off my pertronix install per the instructions, using the recommended coil.

[wittsend]

Yea, it is kind of confusing. The Pertronix itself should have 12 volts. However, the coil may or may not need a resistor. Basically the need for the resistor is for the coil, not the Pertronix itself. All the Pertronix does is provide a pathway to ground like your points did.

That said, there is some vague indication that if the current through a coil is too high the coil itself AND the Pertronix could be damaged. So, it seems if you use the correct resistor (or resistor wire) for the coil then the Pertronix is taken care of.

Just remember to wire the Pertronix to switched 12 volts. The common error that people make is to wire the Pertronix on the wrong side of the resistor and then it might not function correctly with reduced voltage. It should go like this:

Switched 12 volts + to Pertronix (red wire), Switched 12 volts + continues to the resistor input, resistor output (now reduced voltage) continues to coil +.

The black wire on the Pertronix goes to the coil -.

Lastly this is for the stock coil. If you are using an aftermarket coil follow their recommendations as to the need for a resistor and the appropriate value.

Lastly..., lastly if you have a resistor wire that value needs to be factored for an aftermarket coil (you could wind up with more resistance than you need). Some people bypass a resistor wire and just use a switched 12 volts with the aftermarket recommended resistor.

Hope that helps more than confuses.
Tom