Avanti R2 Fuel Injection

[ronhusak]

Hi All..
I am considering the purchase of a 62 R2 Avanti.. I live high in the foothills of the rockies at about 9200 feet in elevation. As you can imagine that is most challenging for a carbureted car.. I had a 76 GMC Motorhome till last season with a 455 Olds.. It was always an issue with running rich until I went with a TBI system for it. That solved all kinds of problems. No more Vapor Locks and being able to just turn the key and start it was great!
My question is... Has anyone done this with a supercharged Studebaker? The idea of having electronic controls and an O2 sensor should solve all of the altitude compensation problems inherent with the carburetor..
I can't think of any reason one wouldn't work on a blow through system like the R2 but maybe some of you do...
Eve if I jet the car to run at my altitude.. A run through town with 4000 feet difference in altitude would be a challenge.. Let alone take a trip to near sea level..
Any Ideas or comments?
Ron Husak
Conifer, Colorado

[PlainBrownR2]

http://forum.studebakerdriversclub.com/showthread.php?28192-My-Street-Version-Port-Injection-for-the-55

It's a work in progress at the moment, but barring some minor tuning problems, it does run .....

It's also a '55 Commander and it's utilizing a pair of turbos instead of a supercharger, but the same rules still apply for forced induction. I had a Holley Pro-Jection w/ the adjustable pots on the ECU under the passenger seat, on the Lark years ago, it worked great, especially with the 4.09 gear in the rear. It would still pass everything but a gas station, but it did it in a little longer length of time, lol. Unfortunately, I didn't have the model with the O2 sensor, so the supercharger stayed off until I put the Carter carburetor back on, which happened due to a stuck advance plate, and not from the Holley itself.

Anyway, I've installed port injection on the '55 with the throttle body, and the turbos running in a blow through application into the throttle body. The throttle body functions as an air valve, so there's no need to worry about sealing the throttle body like with the Carter R2. The injectors are downwind of the throttle body and spray at 34 lbs, so they can overcome whatever pressure the turbos are putting out. The turbos do have reference lines running to the top of the pressure regulator like in a supercharged application. The pump is a Walbro type of pump that is made for fuel injection, so it will put out a healthy 60 lbs, which is needed in this fuel injection application. The Holley blue pump cannot be used because at max pressure, the injectors won't operate properly. I have two outputs on the fuel cell, which are designated as an output and a return on the fuel cell, which looks like an elegant loop with the regulator on the return, so the fuel has to back up into the fuel lines before going back to the fuel cell.

There are two fuel filters installed, one before the fuel pump, and one before the injectors.

The system uses stainless hardlines, brass connections, and high pressure fuel injection rubber lines, which are connected to the injectors. The clamps are fuel injection clamps and band clamps, and the system is set at 34 lbs.

The ECU is a Megasquirt ECU. The ECU takes input from a temp sensor, an external air temp sensor, a vacuum sensor on the back of the ECU, and a tach signal from the distributor. I also have an Innovate wideband O2 setup for it, but it's not installed yet. I am using a small Dell PC to program the ECU. The ECU requires a learning curve to program it, especially since there are so few other Studebakers with a VE map, running on the same system so it will be some time before it's fully operable. The VE map is also where an individual can program to run the injectors at a higher altitude, which for most people will use only a small segment of the map to run the car as most only stay in one geographical location, as it uses idle speed from the tach signal and the barometric pressure to determine how much fuel to inject. The temp sensors are used to replace the thermostatic choke, and the O2 sensor can be used to program the system and to automatically tune the finer fuel points on the car if need be.

Wiring, there is quite a bit of it from the back of the ECU as it's a 37 pin connector, so it runs all over the car to the sensors, pumps, and what have you. The wiring diagrams are all provide on the web, as well as all of the literature, so it's easy-er to install .

[ronhusak]

PlainBrown R2..
Sounds like a pretty involved Deal.. Some of my Fellow GMCers used the mega squirt set up.. I chose to go with a Howell TBI unit with a "Learning" ecu for programing simplicity.. It worked very well in my 455 Olds in my GMC.. Really ran well..
I used a Holley Pro Injection in a 74 Bronco I had.. It worked OK.. But it requires constant fiddling... Even with the O2 sensor..
How did you modify the intake to accept the port injectors.. Are you using some kind of common rail? Are they electronic injectors.. Must be with Mega Squirt..
Ron

http://forum.studebakerdriversclub.c...ion-for-the-55

It's a work in progress at the moment, but barring some minor tuning problems, it does run .....

It's also a '55 Commander and it's utilizing a pair of turbos instead of a supercharger, but the same rules still apply for forced induction. I had a Holley Pro-Jection w/ the adjustable pots on the ECU under the passenger seat, on the Lark years ago, it worked great, especially with the 4.09 gear in the rear. It would still pass everything but a gas station, but it did it in a little longer length of time, lol. Unfortunately, I didn't have the model with the O2 sensor, so the supercharger stayed off until I put the Carter carburetor back on, which happened due to a stuck advance plate, and not from the Holley itself.

Anyway, I've installed port injection on the '55 with the throttle body, and the turbos running in a blow through application into the throttle body. The throttle body functions as an air valve, so there's no need to worry about sealing the throttle body like with the Carter R2. The injectors are downwind of the throttle body and spray at 34 lbs, so they can overcome whatever pressure the turbos are putting out. The turbos do have reference lines running to the top of the pressure regulator like in a supercharged application. The pump is a Walbro type of pump that is made for fuel injection, so it will put out a healthy 60 lbs, which is needed in this fuel injection application. The Holley blue pump cannot be used because at max pressure, the injectors won't operate properly. I have two outputs on the fuel cell, which are designated as an output and a return on the fuel cell, which looks like an elegant loop with the regulator on the return, so the fuel has to back up into the fuel lines before going back to the fuel cell.

There are two fuel filters installed, one before the fuel pump, and one before the injectors.

The system uses stainless hardlines, brass connections, and high pressure fuel injection rubber lines, which are connected to the injectors. The clamps are fuel injection clamps and band clamps, and the system is set at 34 lbs.

The ECU is a Megasquirt ECU. The ECU takes input from a temp sensor, an external air temp sensor, a vacuum sensor on the back of the ECU, and a tach signal from the distributor. I also have an Innovate wideband O2 setup for it, but it's not installed yet. I am using a small Dell PC to program the ECU. The ECU requires a learning curve to program it, especially since there are so few other Studebakers with a VE map, running on the same system so it will be some time before it's fully operable. The VE map is also where an individual can program to run the injectors at a higher altitude, which for most people will use only a small segment of the map to run the car as most only stay in one geographical location, as it uses idle speed from the tach signal and the barometric pressure to determine how much fuel to inject. The temp sensors are used to replace the thermostatic choke, and the O2 sensor can be used to program the system and to automatically tune the finer fuel points on the car if need be.

Wiring, there is quite a bit of it from the back of the ECU as it's a 37 pin connector, so it runs all over the car to the sensors, pumps, and what have you. The wiring diagrams are all provide on the web, as well as all of the literature, so it's easy-er to install .

[PlainBrownR2]

It is fairly involved, yeah, but they tell you that pretty much from the start. There aren't too many Studebaker Megasquirt kits floating around(I count all of two for the Studebaker power guys so far, with another that was done for Gary Hart's 515 GM cid '53), so they aren't offering a conversion setup for us just yet. The intake is a common late model 2 barrel carburetor intake manifold. The intake was modified by buying some universal bungs from EBay, and then drilling out the common late model 2 barrel manifold. The plenum was modified to accept a '95 Lincoln Towncar throttle body with a plywood spacer underneath, and then the bungs received the '95 Lincoln Towncar 34 lb injectors. The throttle body and injectors came from an engine that was a 4.6L, so they're fairly close to the 289's displacement. They are also the saturated type, so there's no need for the resistor boxes as they are built into the injectors. The injectors are pretty common across the late model V8 Fords, so if one blows, it's just a matter of finding another one from Ebay or a salvage yard. Regarding the rails, I tried some large aluminum ones at first, however there were problems of accuracy of drilling those out, which was important as I later found out. When I installed them I had some leaks around the O-rings, which told me they were not accurately drilled out, so I pulled them off and just assembled a brass distribution network using brass tees and nipples, mounted it to the rear of the intake manifold, and ran high pressure fuel injection lines to each of the injectors individually from some brass nipples on the distribution point. The lines fill with fuel, and when the banked injectors are ready to fire, they release the fuel from the lines, which is subsequently then filled back up since the entire system before the regulator is pressurized. Whatever is not used is routed back through the pressure regulator, and back to the fuel cell. It's a common rail of sorts, but it works rather well.

I forgot to mention that there have been a few guys that have done the conversion already. There are quite a few guys over the past 40 years that have converted to fuel injection in general. The "R5" that was at Bonneville utilized the Bendix system, although it was not very streetable at the time since it could only really be used at WOT. Studebaker had some prototype mechanical systems made for the Packards in around '56, but very few made it out the door. It was done up in the same way that it's being done on my '55 with individual lines running to the individual injectors, but it's big problem was the exhorbant pricetag. Once Studebaker received the quotes from Bendix on making a production version, they declined to buy them. Over on the Racing Studebaker forum there are some guys have converted to mechanical fuel injection for racing at Bonneville with a great deal of success. I believe Dave Bloomberg uses a system on his Avanti, and Barlow Soper has a system on his Avanti, but it was done with alot more time, effort, and money than the simple setup that I am doing on the '55.
As a probably more direct route, there is also a system by Mass Flo that they sell for the Studebakers, but I haven't seen too many folks here purchase one yet as they are asking 3500 dollars for the conversion system.

[StudeRich]

You have to think SIMPLE! A Supercharged car with an R3 Air Box, has NO problems with high Altitude, ...Done!

Quite simple, the other options are NOT!

And, it did not take 71 LINES to explain!

[PlainBrownR2]

You have to think SIMPLE! A Supercharged car with an R3 Air Box, has NO problems with high Altitude, ...Done!

Quite simple, the other options are NOT!

And, it did not take 71 LINES to explain!

Ooooh, but then there's that problem of not maximizing the fuel's full potential, so we're stuck with only one sorry setting on the carburetor, with that other equally sorry situation of having to worry if that rumor of the E10 is going to destroy the rubber seals inside of it. Then there's that other little problem of wondering if those now 40 year old carbs will go another 40 years due to the porosity of the pot metal, and the E10 being able to still fully effectively run on that carbureted system, which the fuel is now formulated to run on fuel injection. Of course this problem gets compounded since the cars sit for 3-4 months with that somewhat day old fuel too, which makes the gas a little less potent on a car that runs on a system akin to a coffee drip, rather than being sprayed. Then we can't forget that the mileage can improve with a substantial, more mediated use of the fuel, which from my own Lark has resulted in only 14 mpg after all of the playing around with that carb and it's distributor. Of course all of this can potentially make these cars harder to play with as a hobby in the next 50 years, so I guess that means they will need to be upgraded to keep with the pace of the vehicles that are already 20 years ahead.

Bloody blasted situation too, of also having to potentially needing to change jets at a higher altitude, and having an efficiency setting that's all over the map from those older systems. If you want a simple fuel fountain and don't want to investigate the real detailed engine potential, drop a carb on it. If you want to see how much these engines can REALLY make, and really have infinite tuning potential, as well as learn a thing or two on the functionality of modern fuel systems, then you'll need a vehicle with intelligence. If it were simple and could be explained in 3 lines everybody would be doing it........thank God I'm not everybody.

[sweetolbob]

Ron

Just go to the Holley Avenger series injected TBI system or the equivalent in FAST or others. They are an "easy" bolt on and the are self learning. Just start 'em up and drive. They will build the fuel tables and run well. They claim to handle blown engines.

I have a Holley HP on the 83 Avanti that runs quite well. However, a disclaimer, I have not put a lot of miles on it due to winter. It's a SBC but the computer doesn't care.

Be sure you get the self learning ones unless you are fairly good at building fuel tables.

After starting with an older system that needed programming, I can't tell you how much respect I've gained for PBR2's efforts to do it totally by himself.

PM me if you need more info on what is involved. Or even better, call Holley tech and talk to them. They were very helpful before I purchased mine. Almost like they really know their stuff. Kinda refreshing these days.

Bob

[Mike Van Veghten]

Agree with Bob.

The new systems by Holley (I think), Edelbrock and FAST are nice units. I believe even though they "learn" themselves, the FAST unit can also be user adjusted.
Proverbial, "plug and play".

Been thinking of this myself.

Mike

[ronhusak]

Bob..
Thanks for the reply...
You may have noted that I used a Howell Engineering Kit on my GMC with an Olds 455. It used GM components that are readily available.
And, It was more than pleased with it's performance.. I also added a EBL Learning modual to the ECU which also allowed for a Knock Sensor etc. It solved all of my drivability issues.. NO more vapor lock, smooth altitude compensation and better performance and fuel economy to boot!
I will probably contact them (Howell) to see what they think (Great Guys) although the GM TBI requires a stager bore intake or an adapter that may be too tall..
I will also contact Holley and who is FAST? Another advantage with Howell is their base kit costs about $1200.. So pretty cheap.. There were also guy's who put their own together from "Mens Mall" parts.. But they have Performance table skill I do not posses.. But a learning ECU could negate the need to do that.. Hell, The EBL even allows for a knock sensor.. I had all the stuff to do that but sold my coach before I got to it.. That also requires an Electronic Distributor which was almost always available at the mens mall as well..
The Mega Squirt systems with port injection is the cats meow.. the ultimate in tun-ability.. but also requires the most effort.. To install and tune.. I am not that much into it .. that is fun but I just want my Stude to run well and clean.. No matter which one I end up with..
If I were to buy a Avanti II There is no question I would go with a Howell unit.. But this is another animal altogether..
Ron

[DEEPNHOCK]

FAST is a brand associated with Competition Cams.
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/FST-30226-KIT/



One big advantage to this style kit is that you can remove it from the car
(when you sell the car, and sell it to someone else).
Opinion: Having an aftermarket, or homebuilt, fuel injection setup on an original '63 R2 Avanti
will hurt the resale value...to most Avanti buyers.

<snip>
I will also contact Holley and who is FAST?
<snip>
Ron

[ronhusak]

deepnhock..
Me too! Soon to be worse!
This is exactly the kind of kit I was talking about. I am surprised that they don't include a pump and regulator in the kit as these are so sensitive to Fuel Pressure.
This could be installed to be not very obvious to a casual observer.And, as you stated can be removed at the time of sale..
It only took me about 6 hours to install the one in my GMC.. The hardest part was installing the O2 sensor bung.. I don't have a MIG welder.
It improved the drivability so muc it was amazing.. And improved the power and fuel economy to boot!
I know a lot of owners would look down their noses at this type of modification I live at 9200 feet.. Just driving down into town is a drop of over 4000 feet! Not to mention a Trip to near sea level.. It would improve the power and performance at these altitudes immensely!
I will trot contact these folks and Holley to see what they say about operating in a pressurized application.. I am gonna do this when I find the right car!
Ron
Living at 9200 feet and looking down at ya!

FAST is a brand associated with Competition Cams.
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/FST-30226-KIT/



One big advantage to this style kit is that you can remove it from the car
(when you sell the car, and sell it to someone else).
Opinion: Having an aftermarket, or homebuilt, fuel injection setup on an original '63 R2 Avanti
will hurt the resale value...to most Avanti buyers.

[sweetolbob]

Ron

I chose the Holley due to it's ability to learn and also the ability to adjust the programming after it has learned. Most of the units come with a wide band O2 sensor so one thing you can tune to is Air/Fuel ratio.

The avenger is $2000 roughly, and comes with it's own hand held unit and does not need a laptop. I purchased the HP (about $1400) because I had a Holley TBI and it uses a laptop for initial setup. You need to tell the ECM about firing order, set the TPS and a few other initial settings. Then just start the car and drive it. It will learn as you drive.

After I installed the setup and drove it, I was surprised at how advanced it had established the initial timing. That's probably why it runs better than the carb unit. The one advantage of an SBC or Ford unit is the ability to run the distributor advance curve totally within the ECM. My modest experience says that anyway to get that type of distributor on an engine is a plus. It will also support a knock sensor as well as a crankshaft trigger for newer models.

I'll bet than any of the good self learning systems are fine but, while I'm not a shill for Holley, I was impressed with the knowledge and contactability of their tech folks. Your experience may vary.

How ever you do it, I think it is a great way to control an engine for a quasi-novist like me.

If you want, Holley has all of it's installation and trouble shooting manuals on the site for down load.

Bob

[ronhusak]

Sweetolbob..
Thanks for the input! Are you running yours with a supercharger? I was just wondering if it worked on in a "pressureised" environment?
The electronic controls really make the motor come alive.. Does anyone make such a distributor that can be used in an avanti?
Ron

Ron

I chose the Holley due to it's ability to learn and also the ability to adjust the programming after it has learned. Most of the units come with a wide band O2 sensor so one thing you can tune to is Air/Fuel ratio.

The avenger is $2000 roughly, and comes with it's own hand held unit and does not need a laptop. I purchased the HP (about $1400) because I had a Holley TBI and it uses a laptop for initial setup. You need to tell the ECM about firing order, set the TPS and a few other initial settings. Then just start the car and drive it. It will learn as you drive.

After I installed the setup and drove it, I was surprised at how advanced it had established the initial timing. That's probably why it runs better than the carb unit. The one advantage of an SBC or Ford unit is the ability to run the distributor advance curve totally within the ECM. My modest experience says that anyway to get that type of distributor on an engine is a plus. It will also support a knock sensor as well as a crankshaft trigger for newer models.

I'll bet than any of the good self learning systems are fine but, while I'm not a shill for Holley, I was impressed with the knowledge and contactability of their tech folks. Your experience may vary.

How ever you do it, I think it is a great way to control an engine for a quasi-novist like me.

If you want, Holley has all of it's installation and trouble shooting manuals on the site for down load.

Bob

[PlainBrownR2]

One big advantage to this style kit is that you can remove it from the car
(when you sell the car, and sell it to someone else).
Opinion: Having an aftermarket, or homebuilt, fuel injection setup on an original '63 R2 Avanti
will hurt the resale value...to most Avanti buyers.

Yes....but.... if you're at this point, you're in street rodder territory, and for the most part, above and beyond what's considered an average modification, so resale value is the last thing on your mind when you go this route. However, this is not a body modification, so for the most part most of these systems can be removed without having to worry about damaging something permanent. Mine is not an Avanti, but as it is one of those buildable homebuilt DIY systems with a large plug in the back, it can also be unplugged from the back, and the wiring can be reverted back to the original wiring that came from the factory, no biggie.

Sweetolbob..
Thanks for the input! Are you running yours with a supercharger? I was just wondering if it worked on in a "pressureised" environment?
The electronic controls really make the motor come alive.. Does anyone make such a distributor that can be used in an avanti?
Ron

It should. Unlike carburetors, TBI's and Port Injection don't have multiple parts and pieces with rubber gaskets sandwiched between them. These fuel injection systems don't need as extensive sealing as the carburetor systems do as there is fewer moving parts in them. There's no bowls, reservoirs of gas, or any of that, so there is less likely of fuel blowing out from a split surface somewhere. For the most part both systems use an air valve with fuel jets somewhere in the system that are spraying beyond the 7-14 lb range. The only thing you need to do is make sure all of the tubing from the pressure side of the supercharger is nice and tight.
As far as electronic controls, you'll need to contact Dave Thiebeault for a Mallory distributor if you really want to go the whole "electronic hog". He sells a Unilite setup for the V8's, which should be ideal for dropping into an Avanti. You also have a choice of using the Pertronix conversion kit which drops into the dual point distributors. At the moment on the '55 I'm still using the points with a stock coil, which did pretty good with my Holley Pro-Jection setup I had on the Lark. The '55 has a late model vehicle single point Prestolite on it, and the Lark had a dual point Prestolite much like your Avanti as it has a Jet Thrust engine.
However, I'm moving up to using an Accel Super coil, because of some hit and miss idling and tuning problems I'm having on the '55, and I would also like to get one of the Pertronix or Mallory units in place of the single point Prestolite that is in that car now. In all honesty I need to get a Ford EDIS crankshaft triggered system from Ebay and take out the distributor completely, but it will be awhile before that happens.
I would also advise to start out with the fuel injection first, and then switch over the distributor when things are running smoothly on the car, so that removes a combination of problems from changing over too many things at one.

[ronhusak]

Plainbrownr2..
You are right about the street rodder stuff.. But I am most interested in Drivability.. I just want it to run a well as it can.. The bolt on kits are really easy and quite a bit more "Main Stream" than what you are doing..
I used to play with Turbo Audi's.. Some of them were running over 20 lbs boost so I know about tight systems.. BTW MY 20 Valve 83 UrQ was a screamer!
I want my Avanti to be a much more street able car that is rock solid reliable (as is possible) Horrors of all I am also considering installing an A/C!
Ron

Yes....but.... if you're at this point, you're in street rodder territory, and for the most part, above and beyond what's considered an average modification, so resale value is the last thing on your mind when you go this route. However, this is not a body modification, so for the most part most of these systems can be removed without having to worry about damaging something permanent. Mine is not an Avanti, but as it is one of those buildable homebuilt DIY systems with a large plug in the back, it can also be unplugged from the back, and the wiring can be reverted back to the original wiring that came from the factory, no biggie.



It should. Unlike carburetors, TBI's and Port Injection don't have multiple parts and pieces with rubber gaskets sandwiched between them. These fuel injection systems don't need as extensive sealing as the carburetor systems do as there is fewer moving parts in them. There's no bowls, reservoirs of gas, or any of that, so there is less likely of fuel blowing out from a split surface somewhere. For the most part both systems use an air valve with fuel jets somewhere in the system that are spraying beyond the 7-14 lb range. The only thing you need to do is make sure all of the tubing from the pressure side of the supercharger is nice and tight.