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Hank
04-28-2007, 07:00 PM
While preping my 1964 Cruiser, which has the 289 eng. for the hot summer, I was wondering if any new products or improved methods of handling this problem have been tried. I currently have a 3/16" return line, taking off at my carb. This seems to work ok, yet I would like to think something else someone has tried may work better. Thanks

studeclunker
04-29-2007, 02:43 AM
There are a couple of solutions to vapour lock in your Cruiser. First, is there a clamp securing the fuel line at the top of the engine? if so, either wrap the fuel line so that the clamp doesn't make contact, or remove it. My experiance is that the clamp will transmit heat into the fuel line. Another solution is to put clothes pins on the fuel line from the pump up to the top of the motor. This insulates the line and keeps it from touching the motor. Another method that looks a bit better, is to get a piece of rubber hose that's large enough for the fuel line to easily slip into. Slip this over the metal fuel line all the way down to the pump and it will insulate the line from the heat of the motor (and look much better than thirty or forty clothes-pins).;)

http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b18/Studeclunker/december%2006/HPIM0234.jpg http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b18/Studeclunker/56%20Parkview%20Wagon/56wagonleftfrontclipped-1.jpg
Home of the famous Mr. Ed!
Lotsa Larks!
K.I.S.S. Keep It Simple Studebaker!
Ron Smith
Where the heck is Lewiston, CA?

Roscomacaw
04-29-2007, 03:26 PM
When you fill up your gas tank, add ONE gallon of diesel fuel to a fillup.;) Works great and doesn't affect performance!:D

Miscreant adrift in
the BerStuda Triangle
http://images.andale.com/f2/115/106/906179/2006/12/7/truckonhill3.jpg

1957 Transtar 1/2ton
1960 Larkvertible V8
1958 Provincial wagon
1953 Commander coupe

sntsftbll
04-29-2007, 07:25 PM
never heard of the diesel fuel thing, wouldn't that cause some smoke? or does it burn clean since it would be so diluted? We had a kid put diesel in a gas forklift (don't ask why, I don't know) it smoked for a while afterward.

Hank
04-29-2007, 07:32 PM
Thanks for the info, never tried the diesel,may give it a shot I have read about it. My neighbor made a small heat shield. We removed the rear most fuel pump mount bolt installed a long stud with lock washer and nut installed the shield with a wing nut. He put heat resistant tape on one side. Whole thing about 3x6 inchs.

Roscomacaw
05-02-2007, 12:18 PM
The diesel trick works good! No smoke.

I worked at an airport operation for a time. One of the line loonies filled his Charger's tank with JP4 jet fuel one nite. Afterwards, he came to me for answers. Seems he couldn't understand why the car had quit running in short order and wouldn't restart again![xx(]

Miscreant adrift in
the BerStuda Triangle
http://images.andale.com/f2/115/106/906179/2006/12/7/truckonhill3.jpg

1957 Transtar 1/2ton
1960 Larkvertible V8
1958 Provincial wagon
1953 Commander coupe

MagikDraggin
05-02-2007, 02:45 PM
quote:Originally posted by Mr.Biggs

When you fill up your gas tank, add ONE gallon of diesel fuel to a fillup.;) Works great and doesn't affect performance!:D


Diesel fuel??? Why Diesel fuel? If you would be so kind, please explain to this dummie, what that's supposed to do for vapor lock.

T'anks,

Karl

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v147/MagikDraggin/Other%20Stuff/IM000986-reduced.jpg?
1962 GT Hawk 4sp

John Kirchhoff
05-02-2007, 03:25 PM
Vapor lock is when the fuel vaporizes while still in the fuel line ahead of the carb. When the fuel pump tries to push fuel through the line, all it does is compress the vapor which then expands back to it's former size on the pump's down stroke. Not that much different from having air trapped in the brake lines. Stomp on the brake and the moving liquid from the master cylinder merely compresses the air bubble instead of pushing brake cylinder outward.

Most likely the diesel raises the temperature required for the fuel to vaporize. Let gasoline set out and it evaporates away but diesel sets there seemingly forever. Don't want to put too much in though because vaporization is what keeps the gasoline atomized in the fuel air charge. If it doesn't vaporize the stuff lays in the intake manifold as a liquid....exactly what happens when your car gets flooded on gasoline.

S2DSteve
05-03-2007, 12:33 AM
Don't know much about it, except that I never experienced it until filling up with that bargain 87 octane gas in Omaha. At first I didn't know what the heck was happening, but things got dramatically better as I travelled further west.
http://i165.photobucket.com/albums/u57/S2DSteve/Convert010.jpg

Steve Hudson
The Dalles, Oregon
1937 Dictator Streetrod
1949 "GMOBaker" 1-T Dually
1953 Commander Convertible
1954 Champion Coupe

John Kirchhoff
05-03-2007, 03:41 PM
I don't know how far west you went Steve, but as the altitude increased, atmospheric pressure went down which effectively reduced the compression ratio and richened the fuel air mixture. Less compression and more fuel cools the combustion temperature which means less engine heat, less heat reduces the chances of the fuel vaporizing in the line. In addition, as the humidity goes down traveling west, the drier air is more effective at conducting heat away from the radiator. My air cooled bike always got better mileage and ran quieter out west than out east. Of course there was less power at higher altitudes. Lower humidity also improved fuel mileage. Humid air contains moisture that not only displaces air but requires heat to be converted into a gas. Unfortunately, the benefit of the expanding gas doesn't equal the amount of energy required to turn it into steam.

MagikDraggin
05-03-2007, 04:03 PM
quote:Originally posted by John Kirchhoff

I don't know how far west you went Steve, but as the altitude increased, atmospheric pressure went down which effectively reduced the compression ratio and richened the fuel air mixture. Less compression and more fuel cools the combustion temperature which means less engine heat, less heat reduces the chances of the fuel vaporizing in the line. In addition, as the humidity goes down traveling west, the drier air is more effective at conducting heat away from the radiator. My air cooled bike always got better mileage and ran quieter out west than out east. Of course there was less power at higher altitudes. Lower humidity also improved fuel mileage. Humid air contains moisture that not only displaces air but requires heat to be converted into a gas. Unfortunately, the benefit of the expanding gas doesn't equal the amount of energy required to turn it into steam.


Don't mean to hi-jack the thread, but I gotta ask this question. So is what you said above the main reason why my newer fuel-injected V8's get so much better fuel mileage west of Nebraska and Kansas, than they do here in the Midwest?

Simply because the air is "thinner" and "less humidity"? Amazing, the stuff I learn here on this forum!

Ok, I now return y'all to your regularly scheduled programming.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v147/MagikDraggin/Other%20Stuff/IM000986-reduced.jpg?
1962 GT Hawk 4sp

rockne10
05-03-2007, 09:41 PM
My '51 has an asbestos hose that surrounds the fuel line where it arcs over the exhaust manifold. I guess most of those have disappeared over the years. Never had a vapor lock.

Brad Johnson
Pine Grove Mills, Pa.
http://www.4wheelz.net/virtual/images/rockne/1928_rockne03_f820_th.jpg'33 Rockne 10, '51 Commander Starlight, '53 Commander Starlight

John Kirchhoff
05-04-2007, 10:53 AM
The nice thing about fuel injection is that it takes into account atmospheric pressure when metering fuel. Your engine will produce less horsepower at higher altitudes, but at least it won't richen up the mixture like a regular carb would. I had to carry smaller main jets for a Honda I had which was a pain to change on the road.

I believe water expands something like 1000 times its volume when it turns into a gas which you'd think would give an engine a little extra get up and go, but actually all it does is soak up heat which would normally be producing power. When it comes to losing engine heat, ask any biker with an air cooled bike about what happens when you're in all day rain. You can be getting 40 mpg but along comes rain, cools off the engine and your mileage drops to 30-35. Heat is power for the engine to produce the same amount of power, it requires more fuel-air be introduced to compensate for heat losses elsewhere.

Incidently, when it comes to a turbocharger producing more power, nothing in this world is free. The required to turn the turbo is extracted from the exhaust heat. Normally about 35% of the energy in a gallon of fuel is lost or wasted in the form of exhaust heat with a naturally aspriated engine. Slap on a turbo, and you reduce that loss to around 30%. With gasoline, that 5% is equal to around 5,700 btu's, which represents the amount of energy used to turn the turbo.

Other heat losses on engines are about 5% through oil and 30% through the cooling system as an average. Anyone that's ever been in a chilly wind with a wet shirt knows how much more effecient water is at conducting heat than is air, so it's pretty obvious why my bike's gas mileage drops like a rock when Mother Nature starts throwing cold water on my parade.

hank63
05-04-2007, 05:38 PM
There was a topic on the diesel solution in the last 12 months. Somebody explained that modern petrol was more highly refined these days, creating fuel with lower vapour or boiling point, or something like that. The diesel fuel appaerently has a higher vapour or boiling point. The explanation had something to do with simple and complex molecules.
/H

John Kirchhoff
05-04-2007, 09:01 PM
Actually ethanol tends to be the culprit in raising the vapor point of gasolines. The higher the vapor pressure, the more volatile it is at the same temperature and the more likely it is to vapor lock. A 10% ethanol blend raises the vapor pressure something like 5-15% depending upon whether the gasoline is a winter (higher vapor pressure) or summer (lower vapor pressure) blend. Ethanol is often used as an oxygenator anymore after MTBE fell out of favor because of it's eagerness to find it's way into drinking water supplies. One thing that'll cause big problems is to buy a bunch of winter blend gas and not use it until summer.

chocolate turkey
05-05-2007, 09:41 AM
Diesel works! Try it! You'll be pleased. 100 degree heat and mountain passes will not be a problem.
What we really need is real gasoline again........

Brian

Brian K. Curtis

53k
05-05-2007, 09:58 AM
quote:Originally posted by Mr.Biggs

When you fill up your gas tank, add ONE gallon of diesel fuel to a fillup.;) Works great and doesn't affect performance!:D

The operative words here are "fill up", "ONE gallon" and "fillup". Don't ask me how I know that eight gallons of diesel in a 21-gallon Avanti tank is not good.



[img=right]http://www.frontiernet.net/~thejohnsons/Forum%20signature%20pix/R-4.JPG[/img=right][img=right]http://www.frontiernet.net/~thejohnsons/Forum%20signature%20pix/64L.JPG[/img=right][img=right]http://www.frontiernet.net/~thejohnsons/Forum%20signature%20pix/64P.jpg[/img=right][img=right]http://www.frontiernet.net/~thejohnsons/Forum%20signature%20pix/53K.jpg[/img=right]Paul Johnson
'53 Commander Starliner (since 1966)
'64 Daytona Wagonaire (original owner)
'64 Daytona Convertible (2006)
Museum R-4 engine

53k
05-05-2007, 10:01 AM
quote:Originally posted by Mr.Biggs

When you fill up your gas tank, add ONE gallon of diesel fuel to a fillup.;) Works great and doesn't affect performance!:D

Would a gallon of kerosene do the same thing? I had just filled two five-gallon cans with kerosene only to have my kerosene heater destroyed falling from a high shelf and I don't have any other use for the kerosene.

[img=right]http://www.frontiernet.net/~thejohnsons/Forum%20signature%20pix/R-4.JPG[/img=right][img=right]http://www.frontiernet.net/~thejohnsons/Forum%20signature%20pix/64L.JPG[/img=right][img=right]http://www.frontiernet.net/~thejohnsons/Forum%20signature%20pix/64P.jpg[/img=right][img=right]http://www.frontiernet.net/~thejohnsons/Forum%20signature%20pix/53K.jpg[/img=right]Paul Johnson
'53 Commander Starliner (since 1966)
'64 Daytona Wagonaire (original owner)
'64 Daytona Convertible (2006)
Museum R-4 engine

John Kirchhoff
05-05-2007, 03:07 PM
The kerosene would probably help, but probably not to the extent that diesel would. Kerosene is considerably lighter than diesel, although not nearly as light as gasoline. #2 diesel is the heaviest (most btu's, most oily), #1 diesel is lighter, then regular kerosene and the lightest is the water white, non-stinking kerosene you can get for lamps and indoor radiant heaters. Just keep in mind that kerosene doesn't like to vaporize and has a very low octane rating, like 60 something. That's why old kerosene tractors had to be started on gasoline, then switched over to kerosene after they were warmed up. Kerosene isn't good for much more than 6.5:1 compression ratio.

Tom B
05-05-2007, 04:59 PM
Nothing solves the 'vapor lock' problem like an electric fuel pump.

[img=left]http://www.alink.com/personal/tbredehoft/Bothcars.jpg[/img=left]
Tom Bredehoft
'53 Commander Coupe
'60 Lark VI
'05 Legacy Ltd Wagon
All three Indiana built OD cars

vegas paul
05-27-2007, 06:21 PM
Tom B - Give me some details about the electric fuel pump use. Does this install in the tank and supply the regular fuel pump? Is there a return line? I'd be interested in what you did.

Las Vegas, NV
'51 Champion Business Coupe G899965 10G-Q4-1434
http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s144/vegas_paul/1462673_2_350.jpg?t=1180041622 http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s144/vegas_paul/graciestude.jpg?t=1180041703

lstude
05-27-2007, 07:12 PM
quote:Tom B - Give me some details about the electric fuel pump use. Does this install in the tank and supply the regular fuel pump? Is there a return line? I'd be interested in what you did.

I also installed an electric fuel pump on my 52 Commander. I installed it near the fuel tank, but not in it. I kept the regular fuel pump on the engine. I was advised to install a low oil pressure cut off switch so that the electric fuel pump would shut off if the engine died, but I haven't done that yet.

Leonard Shepherd
http://leonardshepherd.com/

http://i129.photobucket.com/albums/p235/lstude1/Mein64DaytonaatBradfieldssm2.jpghttp://i129.photobucket.com/albums/p235/lstude1/52Commanderoutofgarage4-3.jpg

vegas paul
05-27-2007, 07:21 PM
Leonard - does the electric pump pump into the mechanical pump (in series) or did you leave the mechanical pump on the engine, unhooked to the tank/carb?

Las Vegas, NV
'51 Champion Business Coupe G899965 10G-Q4-1434
http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s144/vegas_paul/1462673_2_350.jpg?t=1180041622 http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s144/vegas_paul/graciestude.jpg?t=1180041703

lstude
05-27-2007, 07:23 PM
The electric fuel pump pumps directly into the engine driven fuel pump which is still hooked up. It seems to work fine, but I haven't driven it very far.

By the way, have you finished rewiring your 51? I bought a new overdrive wiring harness for my 52 and didn't use it because the 63 overdrive in my car is wired differently.

41 Frank
05-27-2007, 08:06 PM
The electric fuel pumps I have on my cars I run through a spring loaded toggle switch so they can't be left on unless you hold the switch as I only use the pumps to aid starting and in case of vapor lock as the mechanical pump does the work the rest of the time.

Frank van Doorn
1962 GT Hawk 4 speed
1963 Daytona Conv
1941 Champion R-2 Rod

Roscomacaw
05-27-2007, 11:22 PM
Tom writes:"Nothing solves the 'vapor lock' problem like an electric fuel pump."

Really? Hmmm.... why is it my electric pump on Pete wants to vapor-lock when I let it sit idling for a bit while hot? I've NEVER had vapor-lock problems on this truck in all the 18 years I've had it and it wore a mechanical pump.
And it's the PUMP that's having trouble - not the carb. The pump will start rattling like hell until I make the engine demand more fuel. Then the pump shuts up - for a bit anyways.[}:)]
I've yet to try some diesel to see if that would make a difference. Next fill-up tho........


Miscreant adrift in
the BerStuda Triangle
http://images.andale.com/f2/115/106/906179/2006/12/7/truckonhill3.jpg

1957 Transtar 1/2ton
1960 Larkvertible V8
1958 Provincial wagon
1953 Commander coupe

wayne
05-28-2007, 06:47 PM
I have a electric pump in line with my standard pump and have a push button switch to use it only when I have to. I would not run the pump all the time because in case of a accident the whole ta nk could be emptied. I have made me a short rubber hose with the proper fitings on the ends that I could bypass the the standard pump in a case it quites. I have used this arangement for many miles trouble free.

John Kirchhoff
05-28-2007, 10:42 PM
Most electric fuel pumps make noise when they're pumping and quiet down when the lines are full and under pressure. Mr. Biggs, it might be interesting to know how much pressure your electric pump is actually putting out. Some electic pumps are rated at 2-3 psi max, which isn't as high as a good mechanical pump. You might make sure you don't have one of those puny jobs

casey
05-29-2007, 02:20 PM
I too have a '64 sedan with 289 V8. Here's what I did- I got a phenolic spacer that goes between intake manifold and carb. It is made of a sort of fiber and reduces heat transmission. Got mine from Summit. I used two half inch spacers since that was the only size they had and I wanted an inch of seperation. Then I wrapped my fuel line from fuel pump to carb with heat reducing tape. Summit has this also. And the one clamp that supports the fuel line; I mounted that to one corner of the carb since the carb is now cooler because of the phenolic spacer. And then I wrapped the first two feet of the exhaust pipes with heat reducing tape(yes, there is such a product). That transferred some of the exhaust heat from engine compartment to underside of car.

I had an in-line fuel pump but it was too noisy. Went back to the mechanical pump.

Someone told me that the phenolic spacer would make no difference since the entire engine compartment is basically an oven. But I'll tell you this: I used to live in a dry western state then moved here to humid hot Missouri. This car has never vapor locked on me, here or there. So something is working.

herold94
06-28-2009, 06:13 PM
I have a 51 Commander Convertable that I love except for the vapor lock problem. I have installed an electric fuel pump at the tank with an on/off switch and use it only to start the car. The car starts immediately when cold but has major problems when warm. The only thing that seems to be different on my car is I do not have that piece of metal coiled fuel line between the mechanical fuel pump and the carb. Can this make a difference since I have only a short piece of rubber fuel line hose between the carb and the pump?

Also can a sticky heat riser valve affect vapor lock?

I have not tried mixing diesel with gas. It seems other people on the blog do not have a vapor lock problems with the 51 V8 engine. What the hell is different with mine?

Frank Herold

hotrodstude
06-29-2009, 02:19 AM
use a cool can. that it is it's an old racer item to keep the fuel cool. you can buy one at a speed shop or make your own.all you need is an old coffee can some tubing,a petcock and some sealer. you coil the line around and around like a coil spring drill holes for the lines and the petcock in cert coil seal openings mount on frome or splash panels close to the fuelline from the pump. fill with ice put the lid on and your ready to go.also wrap inslated water pipe tape around the fuel lines. don't for get to seal the openings around the fuel lines. it works on race day. don't forget to drain the can when your done.:)

53 stude mod
06-29-2009, 09:19 AM
can I be having a vapor lock problem?
I am having a problem with a 53 coupe modified with a big block chev motor 700 r4 trans and a 9 inch ford rear. I installed an electric fuel pump (holley blue) and new fuel lines going along the passenger side frame rails. I am using the orignial gas tank everything else in the fuel system has been modified. Could I still be having trouble with vapor lock which I know is an inherent problem with a 1953 studebake as i drove one for a couple of years when i was in the army stationed in kentucky and i had a problem with vapor lock..I hope this isn't a stupid question.
Thank you very much Joe Dipipi (53 stude mod)

curt
06-29-2009, 10:45 AM
I have a NAPA electric pump rated about 5psi. Installed the pump very close to the gas tank. At the junk yard I got a fuel shut off electric switch for $10 (from a Tarus), mounted the switch on the fire wall. I route the hot wire from the pump through this shut off switch.The shut off stitch connects it's other connection through the fire wall to a dash switch. The dash switch has a hot lead to it. Any sudden bump, car hit, etc will activate the shut off switch, result: electric pump shuts off.

Johnnywiffer
06-30-2009, 04:25 PM
quote:Originally posted by rockne10

My '51 has an asbestos hose that surrounds the fuel line where it arcs over the exhaust manifold. I guess most of those have disappeared over the years. Never had a vapor lock.
I think you may be talking about the choke heat tube.

http://i155.photobucket.com/albums/s311/johnnywiffer/engine3A.jpg

There was a recall in late '51 and that tube was replaced by the short one going from the carb down to the intake manifold.

http://i155.photobucket.com/albums/s311/johnnywiffer/newchoketube.jpg

John

jclary
06-30-2009, 05:21 PM
:)Hey I am glad you posted the thing about the choke tube. I have a relatively low mileage '51 land cruiser(58,000 mi.) and it still has the long tube. I had never heard about the recall. As far as "VAPRO LOCK" I suspect that there is a lot of other misdiagnosed problems that are blamed on vapor lock. It is like the universal virus when you can't correctly diagnose the real problem.

John Clary
Greer, SC
http://i518.photobucket.com/albums/u346/jconln/HPIM0372-2.jpg
Life... is what happens as you are making plans.
SDC member since 1975

Johnnywiffer
06-30-2009, 05:24 PM
quote:Originally posted by herold94

It seems other people on the blog do not have a vapor lock problems with the 51 V8 engine. Oh yeah? [:o)] Read this: (Not a '51 but virtually the same engine.)

http://forum.studebakerdriversclub.com/post.asp?method=ReplyQuote&REPLY_ID=75350&TOPIC_ID=10074&FORUM_ID=4

John

Johnnywiffer
06-30-2009, 05:29 PM
quote:Originally posted by jclary

:) I had never heard about the recall.My father hadn't either but once he took his '51 LC in to the dealer for something else and they replaced the manifold and that entire system. I doubt you can get the factory to stand behind the recall at this late date. [:o)]

John

Johnnywiffer
06-30-2009, 05:45 PM
Think about it, on the V-8s prior to ’55, the fuel pump is not only on top of the engine (hot air rises, ya know) but directly behind the radiator. The designer of that mess musta been the masochist from Italy who also designed the X1/9 motor! ('J ever try to adjust the valves or change a timing belt on one of THOSE suckers?) Is it any wonder there was vapor lock? I’m surprised there was not a Federal recall to correct THAT situation—bet that woulda cost a pretty penny.

Of course, at the time, there was little gov intervention in such trivialities. Plus I think we may have been hardier people in that era. We complained about it but basically just put up with it. Like rust in the front fenders.

I’m sure that once they relocated the fuel pump to the lower front of the engine, vapor lock was greatly alleviated if not eliminated. Of course, it took ‘em 4 years to do it.

Maybe it took ‘em that long to fire the masochist!

John

RHO
06-30-2009, 09:42 PM
Saw diesel fuel mentioned above, but have seen it recommended many times 8 oz of Marvel Mystery oil to 20 gallons of gas. Seems vapor lock occurring much more frequently now as there is a current thread ongoing over on a Packard site. Couple of weeks ago I experienced vapor lock for the first time on a V-8.

'55 Commander
'55 President

Nelsen Motorsports
07-01-2009, 10:06 AM
quote:Originally posted by MagikDraggin


quote:Originally posted by John Kirchhoff

I don't know how far west you went Steve, but as the altitude increased, atmospheric pressure went down which effectively reduced the compression ratio and richened the fuel air mixture. Less compression and more fuel cools the combustion temperature which means less engine heat, less heat reduces the chances of the fuel vaporizing in the line. In addition, as the humidity goes down traveling west, the drier air is more effective at conducting heat away from the radiator. My air cooled bike always got better mileage and ran quieter out west than out east. Of course there was less power at higher altitudes. Lower humidity also improved fuel mileage. Humid air contains moisture that not only displaces air but requires heat to be converted into a gas. Unfortunately, the benefit of the expanding gas doesn't equal the amount of energy required to turn it into steam.


Don't mean to hi-jack the thread, but I gotta ask this question. So is what you said above the main reason why my newer fuel-injected V8's get so much better fuel mileage west of Nebraska and Kansas, than they do here in the Midwest?

Simply because the air is "thinner" and "less humidity"? Amazing, the stuff I learn here on this forum!

Ok, I now return y'all to your regularly scheduled programming.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v147/MagikDraggin/Other%20Stuff/IM000986-reduced.jpg?
1962 GT Hawk 4sp



Then that is why my Dad's old 89' Range Rover runs so badly?

The truck has never been west of Georgia.

http://i558.photobucket.com/albums/ss29/NelsenRacing/n1558086144_30050401_419-1.jpg
Alex Nelsen
1954 Champion Coupe
Lizella, GA