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Mikebuild
12-03-2010, 09:04 PM
Need some help ...

Trying to get a 56 Hawk running ... hasn't been started since 1978. Has spark and fuel (priming direct into carb and a little starting fluid). It has tried to start a few times. My specific concern is ... the motor turns over slowly ... had the starter checked at a shop, but they say the starter is fine. I am wondering if there is no engine oil pumping thru the engine, ie. turning over a dry motor, causing too much friction in motor. Removing all spark plugs doesn't seem to make any difference. This engine is a packard with a external oil filter canister. I removed the lid from the canister and cranked the engine ... saw no change in the level of oil in the canister ... and ... I've had a valve cover off and have not noticed much oil there either. Would this make sense, no oil pumping = too much friction = slow starting rpm = hot starter? Or ... what else could cause the engine to turn over so slowly?

Welcome
12-03-2010, 09:14 PM
Need some help ...<<<Or ... what else could cause the engine to turn over so slowly?

Transmission; Ultra-Matic or T85 3 spd. Manual:confused:

Mikebuild
12-03-2010, 09:30 PM
Is an Auto ... not sure which model though.

PackardV8
12-03-2010, 10:06 PM
Assume you checked the oil level on the dipstick and it is up.

Even a bit of surface rust on the cylinder walls and valve stems makes for a lot of friction. You've already got the plugs out, so take a big can of WD40 with a long wand and spray in each cylinder. Pull the rocker covers and spray on each valve stem and in the hole on each rocker arm. Remove or loosen the fan and power steering belts. Check that the generator, water pump and PS pump turn freely. Add a second battery in parallel to get enough amps. Spin it over for about 30 seconds. Stop, install NEW spark plugs, double check the correct firing order and timing mark, give it a shot of starting fluid and see what happens. If it starts, run it for a few seconds, then shut it down and reinstall the belts.

jack vines

ozarkman
12-03-2010, 10:51 PM
Also, if you haven't changed the points, they most likely are corroded. Rub a little sand paper between the contacts to ensure you have a good spark.

hank63
12-04-2010, 12:06 AM
Maybe you're trying to find the reason it hasn't been started for so long. Check everything as if it was an engine you got for nothing.
/H

PlainBrownR2
12-04-2010, 12:10 AM
I had this happen every so often on the 2r5 if it sat for too long. Is the battery fully charged and all of the battery connections good?

tbredehoft
12-04-2010, 07:07 AM
Do I remember reading recently that the Packard oil pumps were prone to failure? If so, that could be the problem, once all the electrical connections were cleaned.

PackardV8
12-04-2010, 10:41 AM
Do I remember reading recently that the Packard oil pumps were prone to failure? If so, that could be the problem, once all the electrical connections were cleaned.

Yes, Packard V8 oil pumps prematurely wear and the aeration of the oil will cause hydraulic lifter noise at highway speeds on a hot day.

No, Packard V8 oil pumps don't catastrophically fail and cause total loss of oil pressure.

Maybe, since the OP says it tries to fire, the solution is neither deep nor difficult.

jack vines

Mikebuild
12-04-2010, 12:27 PM
Thanks all, I do have the belts removed and have cleaned and checked all ignition parts (have spark) and have good group 27 battery (and jumping from truck). Will now try lubing as per PackardV8.
Also, it was recommended that I remove the distributor and manually (drill motor) turn the oil pump to prime/lube the engine ... good idea?

Thanks again.

studebaker-R2-4-me
12-04-2010, 12:39 PM
Thanks all, I do have the belts removed and have cleaned and checked all ignition parts (have spark) and have good group 27 battery (and jumping from truck). Will now try lubing as per PackardV8.
Also, it was recommended that I remove the distributor and manually (drill motor) turn the oil pump to prime/lube the engine ... good idea?

Thanks again.

Excellent Idea. I primed the oil gallies on my engine by using that exact method. I took a piece of round steel stock, made it long enough to insert in the oil pump, ground down two edges to match the distributor end and put it on my electric drill. When you feel the drill torquing you've built up oil pressure and the valve train will get oil pumping through it. With this method you will know if your oil pump is working or not.

Good luck

Allen

Welcome
12-04-2010, 01:18 PM
>>>I took a piece of round steel stock, made it long enough to insert in the oil pump, ground down two edges to match the distributor end and put it on my electric drill.

Don't believe it's quite that easy to "drive" the oil pump on the Packard (vs. Stude) engine, but maybe Jack V. can offer a suggestion.

PackardV8
12-04-2010, 01:36 PM
Don't believe it's quite that easy to "drive" the oil pump on the Packard (vs. Stude) engine, but maybe Jack V. can offer a suggestion. The Packard V8 distributor has a female double-D receptacle on the bottom. This requires sacrificing an old distributor; removing the gear and all the internals other than the shaft and housing. This works on an engine stand. Not so well in the frame. Even with the hood removed, it is waaay back against the firewall and difficult to do with a drill motor.

All moot, since the OP has already been cranking over the engine. Most of whatever damage could have been done with dry bearings would already have been done. Probably no problem.

jack vines

Mikebuild
12-05-2010, 07:36 AM
Was able to spin oil pump using a 12mm (6pt) socket. Tough to get the socket back off, but was able to. Used an air ratchet to spin the pump. Could see oil reach the rocker assembly and the oil res., and could hear the oil in the pan and could feel resistance when the oil pressure built up. Seemed to work well. After putting it back together I once again removed all the plugs and soaked the cylinders with oil and cranked her over for quite awhile. Possibly a little better than before, maybe spinning a bit faster. Gonna let it sit overnight. Thanks for help.

Mikebuild
12-06-2010, 12:34 AM
Seems to turn over "best" when cylinders are lubed. Starting RPM's seem to deminish rapidly. Letting starter cool doesn't seem to help. Starting to think my problem is in the cylinders ... binding via corrosion. Lubing cylinders seems to make biggest improvement in starting rpm. Gonna try some mystery or kroil oil and parallel batteries. (and compression test for grins)

FYI ... have great spark, good ground, good voltage, plenty of fuel ... lacking starting rpm (I think).

PackardV8
12-06-2010, 11:38 AM
FYI ... have great spark, good ground, good voltage, plenty of fuel ... lacking starting rpm (I think). Starting RPM is not the problem. If everything is as it should be, a Stude or Packard V8 will start in less than one revolution.

Safe to say, with all the ignition and fuel components having thirty-two years of deterioration, they are the suspects. I'd replace points, condensor, rotor, cap, plug wires and spark plugs immediately. I had one which showed "great spark" with the plug out of the cylinder, but wouldn't start with the plugs installed. New plugs and it was good to go.

Have you confirmed the firing order and that the #1 cyl is on compression when the timing marks are aligned on the front damper and that the rotor points at #1? The Packard distributor shaft can be installed 180-degrees out.

Another trick to try is to hot wire a separate 12V battery directly to your coil. This way, no matter how much the tight engine is dragging down the amps when the starter is engaged, the coil is getting a full 12V.

jack vines

Mikebuild
12-07-2010, 07:24 PM
"SHE'S ALIVE !!!!!!" Started this morning, and surprisingly ... runs pretty good. Will idle on it's own and hardly a miss. Nice.