New Hawk buyer needs help

[khickey]

I have been a Chrysler enthusiast for years and know how to determine if a Chrysler is numbers matching. I am considering buying a 61 hawk with V8 and 4 speed transmission. First, what is a good price for a condition #4 car with this engine and transmission combo, assuming mileage is over 100K. The car runs and moves. Also, in the 60's and 70's Chrysler stamped VINs on transmissions, engines, and on various places on the body. Did Studebaker do this? Is there a way to tell if an engine even though it may be the correct displacement, was the actual one shipped with the car? Does the body tag show numbers for engine, chassis or vehicle number, and serial number that correspond to identical numbers stamped on the engine and body (pillar?). I need to know this info quickly as I have to decide whether or not to buy this car. Any help would be appreciated. This is my first post on this site and I do not know if responses go to my email as well, so please copy your response to khickey@northerncomputer.org. Thanks.

[lstude]

Studebaker did not have an elaborate numbering system like that. The only engine available in 61 Hawks was the 289 V8. There is an engine number stamped on the block near the front where it is circled on the photo below. The number should start with a "P" which means it is a 289.

According to the book I have the 61 engine numbers start with P74701 and end with P79800 if it was made in South Bend.




Leonard Shepherd, editor, The Commanding Leader, Central Virginia Chapter, http://centralvirginiachapter.org/

[lstude]

Studebaker did not have an elaborate numbering system like that. The only engine available in 61 Hawks was the 289 V8. There is an engine number stamped on the block near the front where it is circled on the photo below. The number should start with a "P" which means it is a 289.

According to the book I have the 61 engine numbers start with P74701 and end with P79800 if it was made in South Bend.




Leonard Shepherd, editor, The Commanding Leader, Central Virginia Chapter, http://centralvirginiachapter.org/

[Mike]

You could start with the "Production Order", (Build Sheet), $25 from the Stude Museum @
http://studebakermuseum.org/styles.asp?cid=211 .
That will take a few weeks. The museum archivist may be able to look it up for you. Some museums do research like that for $.
The production order will tell you the serial # of the original engine; colors and options. They sent me two copies. One is on the museum letter head.
The car's serial # is on the plate in the driver's side door jamb. No information about options or engine # is "encoded" in the #. It's not a modern style "VIN". The "secret" location is on the underside of the rear cross member, where it's stamped. It's often too rusty to read, there.
The body number is on a tag screwed to the passenge side firewall.
The engine number location is clearly shown in "lstude's" post. A stock '61 would have an oil filler stack in front of the carb; and no breathers on the valve covers.
There are date codes cast into manifolds, etc. But no one is paying much attention to them, yet...
The '61 four speed Hawks are especially desirable. They are the last of the finned Hawks, and the only ones with 4 speeds. The 4 bbl carb, tach, and "Twin Traction" are nice options.
Mike M.

[Mike]

You could start with the "Production Order", (Build Sheet), $25 from the Stude Museum @
http://studebakermuseum.org/styles.asp?cid=211 .
That will take a few weeks. The museum archivist may be able to look it up for you. Some museums do research like that for $.
The production order will tell you the serial # of the original engine; colors and options. They sent me two copies. One is on the museum letter head.
The car's serial # is on the plate in the driver's side door jamb. No information about options or engine # is "encoded" in the #. It's not a modern style "VIN". The "secret" location is on the underside of the rear cross member, where it's stamped. It's often too rusty to read, there.
The body number is on a tag screwed to the passenge side firewall.
The engine number location is clearly shown in "lstude's" post. A stock '61 would have an oil filler stack in front of the carb; and no breathers on the valve covers.
There are date codes cast into manifolds, etc. But no one is paying much attention to them, yet...
The '61 four speed Hawks are especially desirable. They are the last of the finned Hawks, and the only ones with 4 speeds. The 4 bbl carb, tach, and "Twin Traction" are nice options.
Mike M.

[blackhawk61]

quote:Originally posted by khickey

I have been a Chrysler enthusiast for years and know how to determine if a Chrysler is numbers matching. I am considering buying a 61 hawk with V8 and 4 speed transmission. First, what is a good price for a condition #4 car with this engine and transmission combo, assuming mileage is over 100K. The car runs and moves. Also, in the 60's and 70's Chrysler stamped VINs on transmissions, engines, and on various places on the body. Did Studebaker do this? Is there a way to tell if an engine even though it may be the correct displacement, was the actual one shipped with the car? Does the body tag show numbers for engine, chassis or vehicle number, and serial number that correspond to identical numbers stamped on the engine and body (pillar?). I need to know this info quickly as I have to decide whether or not to buy this car. Any help would be appreciated. This is my first post on this site and I do not know if responses go to my email as well, so please copy your response to khickey@northerncomputer.org. Thanks.

I sent You some pics by e-mail....If I can Help let me know.
Ken

1961 Hawk 4BC,4-SPEED,TT

Lewisville,NC
(formerly chevpartsman)

[blackhawk61]

quote:Originally posted by khickey

I have been a Chrysler enthusiast for years and know how to determine if a Chrysler is numbers matching. I am considering buying a 61 hawk with V8 and 4 speed transmission. First, what is a good price for a condition #4 car with this engine and transmission combo, assuming mileage is over 100K. The car runs and moves. Also, in the 60's and 70's Chrysler stamped VINs on transmissions, engines, and on various places on the body. Did Studebaker do this? Is there a way to tell if an engine even though it may be the correct displacement, was the actual one shipped with the car? Does the body tag show numbers for engine, chassis or vehicle number, and serial number that correspond to identical numbers stamped on the engine and body (pillar?). I need to know this info quickly as I have to decide whether or not to buy this car. Any help would be appreciated. This is my first post on this site and I do not know if responses go to my email as well, so please copy your response to khickey@northerncomputer.org. Thanks.

I sent You some pics by e-mail....If I can Help let me know.
Ken

1961 Hawk 4BC,4-SPEED,TT

Lewisville,NC
(formerly chevpartsman)

[GTtim]

I have heard that matching numbers is a big deal in the Chrysler clubs. I've heard some even go to the extent of checking for the correct head bolts, is that true? The SDC judges don't check for the specific number, only to see if it is the appropriate engine, etc. I've been in the club for 5 years and most people don't make a big deal of the numbers thing.

Tim K.
'64 R2 GT Hawk

[GTtim]

I have heard that matching numbers is a big deal in the Chrysler clubs. I've heard some even go to the extent of checking for the correct head bolts, is that true? The SDC judges don't check for the specific number, only to see if it is the appropriate engine, etc. I've been in the club for 5 years and most people don't make a big deal of the numbers thing.

Tim K.
'64 R2 GT Hawk

[studelover]

I have been building cars for some years now, however the Studebaker is the only company I see where number matching is not important. I see where the 1961 is the first year that the 289 was standard however with other cars there were so many different engine option that's what made one car more valuble then another although it's the same make and model. The 1961 hawk of witch I own "2" are different only where the options "as" power brakes over manual or power steering over manual, rear end ratio and interior trim, total reclining seats "Verses" regular seat. When looking at the two cars I have each has the different options and I chose the one with the more interesting bell and whisles to restore, what I liked I took from one and gave to the other, I hope you look the car over and "under" before you buy it. It could be number 1 or number 4 make sure it has not been in an accident or suffered any injury.

This can be done by looking at the air dam in the front and the rear frame support in the rear under the trunk, please look carfully at the frame supports and "A" pillar supports. If you don't know what those things I mentioned are take someone with you that does know. I have become an expert the hard way.

If this is a car that you want It will not matter as a full resto will involve removing the motor and you will see all these things as you disassemble the car. These are great little cars and if yours is running you are very lucky good luck and if I can help you please E-Mail me, I am building my car as we speak!

Studebakers forever!

[studelover]

I have been building cars for some years now, however the Studebaker is the only company I see where number matching is not important. I see where the 1961 is the first year that the 289 was standard however with other cars there were so many different engine option that's what made one car more valuble then another although it's the same make and model. The 1961 hawk of witch I own "2" are different only where the options "as" power brakes over manual or power steering over manual, rear end ratio and interior trim, total reclining seats "Verses" regular seat. When looking at the two cars I have each has the different options and I chose the one with the more interesting bell and whisles to restore, what I liked I took from one and gave to the other, I hope you look the car over and "under" before you buy it. It could be number 1 or number 4 make sure it has not been in an accident or suffered any injury.

This can be done by looking at the air dam in the front and the rear frame support in the rear under the trunk, please look carfully at the frame supports and "A" pillar supports. If you don't know what those things I mentioned are take someone with you that does know. I have become an expert the hard way.

If this is a car that you want It will not matter as a full resto will involve removing the motor and you will see all these things as you disassemble the car. These are great little cars and if yours is running you are very lucky good luck and if I can help you please E-Mail me, I am building my car as we speak!

Studebakers forever!

[sbca96]

Matching numbers really only matters with Avantis and R-series Hawks
and Larks. Other then those its not a huge issue. Well, I guess also
the Golden Hawks ..... and maybe the Chevybakers?

Tom

'63 Avanti, zinc plated drilled & slotted 03 Mustang Cobra 13" front disc/98 GT rear brakes, 03 Cobra 17" wheels, GM alt, 97 Z28 leather seats, soon: 97 Z28 T-56 6-spd, Ported heads w/SST full flow valves, 'R3' 276 cam, Edelbrock AFB Carb, GM HEI distributor, 8.8mm plug wires

[sbca96]

Matching numbers really only matters with Avantis and R-series Hawks
and Larks. Other then those its not a huge issue. Well, I guess also
the Golden Hawks ..... and maybe the Chevybakers?

Tom

'63 Avanti, zinc plated drilled & slotted 03 Mustang Cobra 13" front disc/98 GT rear brakes, 03 Cobra 17" wheels, GM alt, 97 Z28 leather seats, soon: 97 Z28 T-56 6-spd, Ported heads w/SST full flow valves, 'R3' 276 cam, Edelbrock AFB Carb, GM HEI distributor, 8.8mm plug wires

[DEEPNHOCK]

As said elsewhere on this thread..
Get the build sheet.
The '61 Hawk is unique in that it was the first year a 4 speed was offered in a Hawk. And that was a single year for that articulat T-10 case and bellhousing.
That can increases the Hawk's value to the exacting Studebaker buyer....if it was indeed built that way.
There have probably been as many 4 speeds 'installed' into '61 Hawks in later years that were originally built and sold by Studebaker in 1961.
While that may not make much difference to most Stude people, it will if you intend on being accurate.
Jeff[8D]

quote:Originally posted by khickey

I have been a Chrysler enthusiast for years and know how to determine if a Chrysler is numbers matching. I am considering buying a 61 hawk with V8 and 4 speed transmission. First, what is a good price for a condition #4 car with this engine and transmission combo, assuming mileage is over 100K. The car runs and moves. Also, in the 60's and 70's Chrysler stamped VINs on transmissions, engines, and on various places on the body. Did Studebaker do this? Is there a way to tell if an engine even though it may be the correct displacement, was the actual one shipped with the car? Does the body tag show numbers for engine, chassis or vehicle number, and serial number that correspond to identical numbers stamped on the engine and body (pillar?). I need to know this info quickly as I have to decide whether or not to buy this car. Any help would be appreciated. This is my first post on this site and I do not know if responses go to my email as well, so please copy your response to khickey@northerncomputer.org. Thanks.

[DEEPNHOCK]

As said elsewhere on this thread..
Get the build sheet.
The '61 Hawk is unique in that it was the first year a 4 speed was offered in a Hawk. And that was a single year for that articulat T-10 case and bellhousing.
That can increases the Hawk's value to the exacting Studebaker buyer....if it was indeed built that way.
There have probably been as many 4 speeds 'installed' into '61 Hawks in later years that were originally built and sold by Studebaker in 1961.
While that may not make much difference to most Stude people, it will if you intend on being accurate.
Jeff[8D]

quote:Originally posted by khickey

I have been a Chrysler enthusiast for years and know how to determine if a Chrysler is numbers matching. I am considering buying a 61 hawk with V8 and 4 speed transmission. First, what is a good price for a condition #4 car with this engine and transmission combo, assuming mileage is over 100K. The car runs and moves. Also, in the 60's and 70's Chrysler stamped VINs on transmissions, engines, and on various places on the body. Did Studebaker do this? Is there a way to tell if an engine even though it may be the correct displacement, was the actual one shipped with the car? Does the body tag show numbers for engine, chassis or vehicle number, and serial number that correspond to identical numbers stamped on the engine and body (pillar?). I need to know this info quickly as I have to decide whether or not to buy this car. Any help would be appreciated. This is my first post on this site and I do not know if responses go to my email as well, so please copy your response to khickey@northerncomputer.org. Thanks.