poor braking - Turner Brake conversion 62 Hawk

[santa]

Just had the Turner front brake conversion and dual MC installed on my 62 Hawk.
Everything is new up front and installed per Turner kit instructions.
Rear drum brakes were working and not replaced, just bled.
The installing mechanic is an experienced local and is familiar with older autos.

It stops poorly. Very poorly. Sorta just slows down and does not stop firmly.

Took it back for him to look at it.. Waiting for him to call.

Any thoughts on what else it could be and/or how to analyze the problem?

Thanks,
Brian

[Bob Andrews]

Turner has many kits out in use that work just fine; so it's not going to be a design flaw. Your post somewhat suggests that.

First guess I have is either a residual valve issue or a mistake in splitting the system front/rear. Verify those items first. It sounds like one end or the other is not functioning.

[PackardV8]

1. Does it have power brake booster? These are hard to bleed.
2. Stude used non-self-energizingt type rear drum brakes on disc models, because it is difficult to get the proper balance when self-energizing rear drums are used.
3. The Turner system is pretty well de-bugged by now. It will probably turn out to be a problem with bleeding.

jack vines

[santa]

I know the Turner systems are high quality - not a question about the kit quality; a question about why the car is not stopping.
Its a drum car w/o power boost.

Not in a positon to do my own work right now and have to rely on the mechanic. Thought the forum would have some insight.

[Rerun]

Was the master cylinder provided by Turner? If not, what M/C did you use? Is it a disk/drum M/C? Bore diameter? I used the Turner conversion on my '64 Daytona, without a power booster, and it stopped very nicely.

[BobPalma]

I know the Turner systems are high quality - not a question about the kit quality; a question about why the car is not stopping.
Its a drum car w/o power boost.

Not in a positon to do my own work right now and have to rely on the mechanic. Thought the forum would have some insight.

True, BUT: Jim Turner has heard every story imaginable and knows more about his kits and systems than anyone on the forum.

Anyone that's dealt with Jim knows he is the most patient, understanding guy imaginable and will do everything he can to assist someone in being happy with his well-engineered, proven, and well-received kits.

That's why it is always a good idea to contact him first before posting something on the forum with a thread title that implies or possibly suggests something might be unsatisfactory with the parts or design of same.

Please, any vendor deserves that consideration...especially one with an excellent record of customer service, as Jim Turner enjoys. BP

[Paul Keller]

Turner Brake

Also have the turner system on my '63 Hawk. Pedal pressure is moderately high w/ out a booster but provides excellent stopping power. Perhaps you are used to a power boosted system (in another car)? Also, the choice of brake pads will have an effect - I'm on my third type and find the difference to be incremental but noticable (basic parts store brand being the worst). Also, if you have a Hill Holder, it needs to be bled separately. Another point is that if your car was originally equipped w/ a brake pedal from a brake booster equipped car, and you are not using a booster now, the pedal geometry will not provide sufficient leverage - you will need a pedal assembly for a manual brake car. All the previous points are also valid - Keep at it, the system is worth the effort.


Of help would be your further description of problem - Is the pedal hard? Soft? Is the pedal high or does it go more than half way down?

Best of luck , Paul Keller

[santa]

Thanks Paul. No doubt that its a good kit - see my prior posts abut Turner. However, Jim doesnt get to talk with customers until the evening and I thought I'd hit the forum while the car is up on the lift.
Want some insight before I talk with the mechanic at the end of the day.

It was a manual drum car, no hill holder. PEdal feels normal for a manual brake care. Goes about half way down, definitely not to the floor.

[jclary]

Thought the forum would have some insight.

"The Forum" can sometimes provide good information. However, "The Forum" is populated by lots of folks with various degrees of knowledge. Some good...some...not so good. I have posted before that it reminds me of a 24/7 campfire where we just "hang out" and shoot the bull.

You could also think of it as a nursery, where kids are wandering about. Some learning to socialize, some playing nice, some crying, and others kicking and biting. The first fight I remember happened in a church nursery when I was about 3 or 4 years old. I had never seen clear plastic blocks with little animals inside and was cheerfully gathering them and stacking them in neat little imaginary buildings. That was when some kid thought it would be more fun to kick them down. I took an exception to that and kicked him down.

"The Forum" can be a fun place, it can be a frustrating experience, and sometimes you just have to sift through the confusion. It does have its builders, but there are plenty of kickers, biters, and nit-pickers. The over-riding thing about it is we all have a passion for our cars and if you keep that "first and foremost"...it is a great arena to play in.

[santa]

Thanks John. I am new to Studes and the forum,. It has been quite helpful for my other inquiries. Today I was just tryng to work through why the car isnt stopping well and somebody thinks I'm ripping on J.T. Not only wrong, but also a silly conclusion. I attribute it to devotion to J.T. and his product.

I did speak with the mechanic in the interim and he thinks I might need rear brakes. I will wait to talk with Jim.
(I am at a disadvantage bc I cannot work on my car as I usually would and have to rely on a mechanic.)

Can hardly wait to drive the old crate!

[jclary]

That's OK, it just provided me another opportunity to try to add a little perspective to the forum. Some time back, I had a conversation with a fellow long time SDC member who complained that "The Forum" was no help to him. That was when I realized that some members apparently think that the forum is an internet version of the "Co-operator" technical section of our "Turning Wheels" publication. I think it is a misconception that is easy for some to make and I try to clear it up when I can.

[StudeRich]

Disc Brake Installation Problem

Santa, I am sure you did not mean anything by it, BUT I have to agree with our very knowledgeable, esteemed Turning Wheels Co-Operator Advisor, Bob Palma.

This title says very clearly, there is a problem with a Turner Brake Product, and that is clearly NOT the case. We don't know yet if it is the car or the Mechanic, but very doubtful it's the Product!

I believe that in the "Advanced" mode the Title can be changed.

[52 Ragtop]

I spoke with "Santa" a little bit ago, I have run across the low pedal problem before. Most of that will be in the adjustment between the pedal and the M/C. That adjustment can not be like the shop manual states! If a 1/4" of free play is used, the pedal will be 1/2 way to the floor like Brians, or all the way to the floor. I went over the adjustment with Brian, and gave him my cell number to have his mechanic give me a call if he has any questions.
These things DO happen, just as I recently sent out a replacement bracket for a truck kit that after I saw the photos, the bracket was not right.

I have also come up with "more" braking power for my 1920 Touring! I was going to use a parachute, but , it probably won't get going fast enough! so, I ahave designed a bracket to hold a spare 289 block on the rear. Pull the lever, and the block falls into the street, 10 feet of chain, and it should stop pretty good! (or rip out the rear axle assy) LOL

Jim

[MyStude_51]

"
You could also think of it as a nursery, where kids are wandering
"The Forum" can be a fun place, it can be a frustrating experience, and sometimes you just have to sift through the confusion. It does have its builders, but there are plenty of kickers, biters, and nit-pickers. The over-riding thing about it is we all have a passion for our cars and if you keep that "first and foremost"...it is a great arena to play in.

That's a good point. The problem with the forum, is also the written word. Sometimes, the written word gets misinterpreted, with no malice whats so ever, and feelings might be hurt. Including myself, of being misunderstood. The forum is a good place to get a lot of ideas, whether they work or not, you learn a lot. It is called trouble shooting or trial and error. Eventually you'll nail it, and when you do, you learn.

[jackb]

Jim.....you did remove the crank in that 289 before you augmented your brake system...???