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JimC
04-15-2007, 10:22 PM
Hey guys,

On my '60 Lark, I'd really like to keep the vehicle as close to stock as possible, with one exception - the brakes.

I personally would like to put at least front disc brakes on the car, and possibly rear discs too, just to make it a little more updated.

So I see the kits for the actual brakes themselves, and that looks easy enough, but here's my question: what does one do about getting a new master cylinder, and possibly a power booster? Also, is it possible to relocate the master cylinder so you don't have to pull up the carpet to check on your brakes? THAt seems a bit silly to me, personally.

Advice? Comments? Donuts? I'll take any of 'em! :)

--------
Restoring my grandfather's '60 Lark, one rusted bolt at a time.

Maple Lake, Minnesota

Swifster
04-15-2007, 10:52 PM
Jim, sorry, but I've never met a donut that I didn't like :D.

As for the brakes, I'd try to find a complete donor vehicle with the front disc brakes and large rear drums. Stay with a completely engineered set up is always the best option.

My second suggestion if you can't source a car with discs, it the power V-8 drum set up. Larks are light and these will slow the car just fine as well as keeping a complete engineered system.

Last, I'd go with Jim Turners front discs and large rear drums. Now you might ask, "Where's the four wheel disc brakes?" Unless you are just trying to add bling, you won't need them. When I raced in SCCA, it was found that there was no real performance advantage with the rear discs, but they added about an extra 15 pounds of unsprung weight. In racing, weight is king when all else is even.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Tom - Valrico, FL

1964 Studebaker Daytona

http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i280/Swifster/1965_Studebaker_Commander_front198x.jpg

StudeRich
04-16-2007, 03:50 AM
Jim Turner also has an under the floor DUAL master cylinder conversion kit that should really work good. Also if you get real fancy you could build a remote firewall mounted filler bottle system, like Studebaker used on their Disc. Brake Hawk models.
Myself; I don't tailgate any new sports cars with 4 wheel discs and power anti-lock brakes, so I don't NEED to change anything! You have to remember, this is not a drum brake Plymouth -'54 to '66 Stude. brakes actually stop!

StudeRich
Studebakers Northwest
Ferndale, WA

rusty nut garage
04-16-2007, 11:04 AM
Sometimes my advice is questionable :D
but this time its spot on. If your car is a v-8 stay with the stock drums, but upgrade your master cylinder to a dual system. The Jim Turner system is a great kit (almost bolt on)
The v-8 drums do a great job of stopping the lark. Save your resources that you'd have spent on the disc and put it toward something else, trust me you'll run out of money before you run out of time in this hobby.
Yes pulling the carpet is a bit stange to add brake fluid, and the mc under the floor near all the road grime isn't the best place for it but how often do you have to add fluid anyway? You could also add a remote reservoir on the firewall and it feed brake fluid to the master cylinder, This was an option on some studes and I've alos seen guys use late model brand X parts to accomplish the same thing.
You could go to the extremes and add the mc on the firewall but $$ time and engineering may may that impractical. Stick to the basics get this car rolling and enjoy it. If not you risk trying to do to much, not finishing it and thus not enjoying driving it, stay focused man, keep asking I'm full of free info[}:)]

quote:Originally posted by somecallmejim

Hey guys,

On my '60 Lark, I'd really like to keep the vehicle as close to stock as possible, with one exception - the brakes.

I personally would like to put at least front disc brakes on the car, and possibly rear discs too, just to make it a little more updated.

So I see the kits for the actual brakes themselves, and that looks easy enough, but here's my question: what does one do about getting a new master cylinder, and possibly a power booster? Also, is it possible to relocate the master cylinder so you don't have to pull up the carpet to check on your brakes? THAt seems a bit silly to me, personally.

Advice? Comments? Donuts? I'll take any of 'em! :)

--------
Restoring my grandfather's '60 Lark, one rusted bolt at a time.

Maple Lake, Minnesota


Russ Shop Foreman "Rusty Nut Garage"
57 SH (project)
60 Lark VIII 2dr sd (driver)

JimC
04-17-2007, 01:18 AM
THanks for the advice guys, it's really been useful!

Oh, I should have mentioned, my Lark is a 60 Lark VI.

I'll probably wind up leaving the drums on the rear, but I'm definitely swapping the front brakes for a disc set. I really don't like drum brake systems, personally. In fact, it's one of the reasons that this car wound up siting in a field for almost two decades. Believe it or not, but after my grandpa died and the car was towed to my uncle's farm it would start and run. Problem was there were no brakes. If there had been, the car would have been at least drivable, and wouldn't have deteriorated to the very sad stage that it's in today.

One thing I'm still a little foggy on though. Once I do this conversion to front disc brakes, will my original front wheels fit? I now have 10 (yes, 10) 1960 Lark Rims, and 4 good tires. They're the best part of the whole car, to be honest! Should I start looking into swapping them out?

--------
Restoring my grandfather's '60 Lark, one rusted bolt at a time.

Maple Lake, Minnesota

Transtar60
04-17-2007, 08:41 AM
Nope

http://racingstudebakers.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10056/5E13%20Pic%203.JPG
3E38
4E2
4E28
5E13
7E7
8E7
8E12
8E28
4E2
59 Lark
etc

rusty nut garage
04-17-2007, 10:28 AM
It likely wasn't the fact that the car had drums that caused the brakes to fail and be parked. More likely it was a hydraulic portion that failed. Since the lark has a single system the loss of one wheel cylinder or hose will cause the complete system to be lost.
No the original wheels will not fit with the disc conversion, but if your going to drive it and run radials a change to a wider newer steel wheel is better anyway. Lots of replacement readily available, search the forum for ford ranger wheels or chrysler wheels

quote:Originally posted by somecallmejim

THanks for the advice guys, it's really been useful!

Oh, I should have mentioned, my Lark is a 60 Lark VI.

I'll probably wind up leaving the drums on the rear, but I'm definitely swapping the front brakes for a disc set. I really don't like drum brake systems, personally. In fact, it's one of the reasons that this car wound up siting in a field for almost two decades. Believe it or not, but after my grandpa died and the car was towed to my uncle's farm it would start and run. Problem was there were no brakes. If there had been, the car would have been at least drivable, and wouldn't have deteriorated to the very sad stage that it's in today.

One thing I'm still a little foggy on though. Once I do this conversion to front disc brakes, will my original front wheels fit? I now have 10 (yes, 10) 1960 Lark Rims, and 4 good tires. They're the best part of the whole car, to be honest! Should I start looking into swapping them out?

--------
Restoring my grandfather's '60 Lark, one rusted bolt at a time.

Maple Lake, Minnesota


Russ Shop Foreman "Rusty Nut Garage"
57 SH (project)
60 Lark VIII 2dr sd (driver)

Dick Steinkamp
04-17-2007, 11:44 AM
I'm with Rusty...even if they are 6 cyl brakes.

Just sticking disks on the front without engineering the TOTAL system is likely to get you a car that takes longer to stop and that could even be dangerous...as in swapping ends under hard braking.

There are master, rear wheel, and caliper piston sizes to compute to insure they all work together, brake pedal travel and leverage, front to rear proportioning, residual check valves, custom brake hoses and/or lines, etc...and this assumes you at least use somebody's aftermarket MC bracket and caliper brackets.

IMHO, the rebuilt 6 cyl brakes will work fine with your car. I've owned 6 cyl Larks and have not been disappointed in the brakes. This will be the cheapest and easiest solution for safe brakes.

One step further would be to replace the 6 cyl brakes with V8 brakes. It is a bolt in conversion. If you have to replace your 6 cyl drums, this conversions would be almost as inexpensive as redoing the 6 cyl brakes.

My guess is that with the same car and the same tires, V8 Stude brakes (54 and up) will stop as good or better than one equipped with front disks. The drums will not perform as well as the disks after several sequential stops from high speed or when they are soaked (not just rain...but axle high puddles).

The next step would be front disks. Don't reinvent the wheel here. Get a COMPLETE kit from Jim Turner. It's engineered, and proven with a large installed base.



http://thenobot.org/images/s2d/s2d_01.jpg

Dwain G.
04-17-2007, 12:00 PM
RE: Lifting carpet to check master cylinder.
During the 1960 model year Stude began putting a color keyed, rubber covered cap on the floor for easier access to the master cylinder. Then they issued a service letter with instructions on installing the new cap on previous models. This would be the easiest way to go (stock too) if you stay with the original master cylinder. If you change to a dual circuit master cylinder, you'd probably be happier with a remote reservoir.

http://home.comcast.net/~jdwain/63.63.jpg
Dwain G.

JimC
04-17-2007, 12:29 PM
Hi Dick.

If I went with disc brakes, I would definitely use one of Jim Turner's kits to make the conversion. Again, it's just a personal taste thing. Honestly, the brakes are probably not as big a deal as the master cylinder. Even if I am talked into leaving the drums on the car (and I'm still not convinced that's the way I want to go), upgrading to a master cylinder with dual reservoirs is going to have to happen, period. Several folks in my family have experienced losing their brakes due to an older master cylinder, and I don't want to be the next person on that list.

I know that when you do a dual disk/drum setup, you need to have a proportioning valve to make sure that you get the right pressure balance. Will I need a similar setup if I leave all four drums, and simply retrofit a new MC in there?



--------
Restoring my grandfather's '60 Lark, one rusted bolt at a time.

Maple Lake, Minnesota

vegas paul
04-17-2007, 12:31 PM
I just recently installed a dual MC in the original location, using a Jim Turner bracket. In order to access the MC, I cut a larger hole in the floor and fabricated a cover out of some 1/8" aluminum I had sitting around. Looks good, easy access, and the Turner bracket is very substantial. I used a 70's Corvette MC at Jim's suggestion and everything worked out well.

Las Vegas, NV
'51 Champion Business Coupe G899965 10G-Q4-1434
http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s144/vegas_paul/graciestude.jpghttp://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s144/vegas_paul/1462673_2_350.jpg

Dick Steinkamp
04-17-2007, 01:19 PM
quote:Originally posted by somecallmejim


I know that when you do a dual disk/drum setup, you need to have a proportioning valve to make sure that you get the right pressure balance. Will I need a similar setup if I leave all four drums, and simply retrofit a new MC in there?




I'd ask Jim that when you get the MC and bracket. I believe you won't need a proportioning valve if you don't change the stock brakes, but I think you'll need a 15# or so residual check valve on each line if you use a disk brake MC. A disk/drum MC may already have a residual check valve built into the rear line.

http://thenobot.org/images/s2d/s2d_01.jpg

41 Frank
04-17-2007, 02:27 PM
Here is what I did on my 41 Champion with front discs and rear drums as per instructions from speedway motors. A front disc/ rear drum setup requires a 2# residual pressure valve in the line to the front discs and a 10# residual pressure valve to rear drum brakes. Also I installed an adjustable proportioning valve in the rear brake line to adjust the amount of rear brake or you might find yourself going in a circle on hard brake applications.Front residual pressure valve prevents fluid drain back on systems where the master cylinder is lower then the calipers.

rusty nut garage
04-17-2007, 05:34 PM
Go to turners web site and print out the instructions. Yes his kit will recommend and come with a proportioning valve. Its a manually adjusted valve that restricst the pressure to the rears, you just adjust to keep the rears from locking up much sooner than the front. I've installed two of his kits one on a lark the other on a c/k. Kit is the same fits better on the c/k in my opinion. The kits were purcased a couple years apart and the type of proportioning valve changed the most recent was a smaller valve but both worked with no issues. Quality kit, not perfect but I've been putting on aftermarket equip on all makes for alot of years, none of it is perfect and seldom does it fit without some small problem.
The turner kit on the lark had an issue with the pin that fits in the brake pedal to the rod that activates the mc piston. The pin is designed to make up the distance between the pedal and the rod, an offset if you will. The offset was too wide. This pin is advertised as being hardened but was only surface hardened at best. I had a machinest narrow this offset down. I don't recall the amount I had the pin turned down, but its not a show stopper regardless. I'd sure recommend to anyone who drives these things in todays traffic.
The kit on the c/k was a perfect bolt on.


quote:Originally posted by somecallmejim

Hi Dick.

If I went with disc brakes, I would definitely use one of Jim Turner's kits to make the conversion. Again, it's just a personal taste thing. Honestly, the brakes are probably not as big a deal as the master cylinder. Even if I am talked into leaving the drums on the car (and I'm still not convinced that's the way I want to go), upgrading to a master cylinder with dual reservoirs is going to have to happen, period. Several folks in my family have experienced losing their brakes due to an older master cylinder, and I don't want to be the next person on that list.

I know that when you do a dual disk/drum setup, you need to have a proportioning valve to make sure that you get the right pressure balance. Will I need a similar setup if I leave all four drums, and simply retrofit a new MC in there?



--------
Restoring my grandfather's '60 Lark, one rusted bolt at a time.

Maple Lake, Minnesota


Russ Shop Foreman "Rusty Nut Garage"
57 SH (project)
60 Lark VIII 2dr sd (driver)

Randy_G
04-17-2007, 06:35 PM
From what I have read from previous post's the 1960 Stude wheels will not work with disc-brakes, Bob Helm's has new wheels for Studes that will work on Disc-brakes. See his ad. in TW.

Randy_G
1959 Lark Sedan
www.AutomotiveHistoryOnline.com
http://www.automotivehistoryonline.com/sedan4small.jpg