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sbca96
04-06-2007, 04:11 AM
UPDATE per picture location change - 3/14/09

I got an email today asking me where I got the bracket to install the
GM alternator on my R1 Avanti. I figure I might as well post the info
here for all to benefit.

The install was simple, I used a standard three wire GM alternator, it
gets mounted upside down (the alternator wont care). I had to redrill
two holes, the R1 bracket is two pieces. I unbolted the 3 bolts that
hold the small bracket to the large bracket, and moved the bracket to
the front. Basically the front hole becomes the rear hole. Than I
drilled two holes the same size as the others and remounted the small
bracket in the forward pattern. I dont recall having to bend the arm
on the bottom, but the pulley should live up fine in this location. I
think the wiring details were on Bob Johnstone's, but the Honda alt
page has been redone, and my old GM alternator tech is now gone. Bob
you still have that somewhere? Here are pictures :

http://emperorjordan.com/sbca96/images/AvantiGMalt/Avanti_Alt08.jpg

http://emperorjordan.com/sbca96/images/AvantiGMalt/Avanti_Alt01.jpg

http://emperorjordan.com/sbca96/images/AvantiGMalt/Avanti_Alt02.jpg

http://emperorjordan.com/sbca96/images/AvantiGMalt/Avanti_Alt04.jpg

http://emperorjordan.com/sbca96/images/AvantiGMalt/Avanti_Alt05.jpg

http://emperorjordan.com/sbca96/images/AvantiGMalt/Avanti_Alt07.jpg

http://emperorjordan.com/sbca96/images/AvantiGMalt/Avanti_Alt06.jpg

http://emperorjordan.com/sbca96/images/AvantiGMalt/Avanti_Alt05.jpg

Tom

'63 Avanti, zinc plated drilled & slotted 03 Mustang Cobra 13" front disc/98 GT rear brakes, 03 Cobra 17" wheels, GM alt, 97 Z28 leather seats, soon: 97 Z28 T-56 6-spd, Ported heads w/SST full flow valves, 'R3' 276 cam, Edelbrock AFB Carb, GM HEI distributor, 8.8mm plug wires

64V-K7
04-06-2007, 07:39 AM
The above sequence is online now, at
http://www.studebaker-info.org/tech/Alternator/delco10si/r1avanti/r1avdelcoalt.html



Thanks Tom..

Bob Johnstone
http://www.studebaker-info.org/7168422/sig2.jpg

DEEPNHOCK
04-06-2007, 07:05 PM
Does your 1 wire charge at idle after you first start it up, or do you have to rev it up to 1500 rpm or so to excite the field?
(an issue with most one wire installs)..
Some people I know just put a 194 bulb under the dash and color it black with a Magic-Marker so the draw will excite the field.
Just curious as to what your experience was.
Jeff[8D]


quote:Originally posted by sbca96

I got an email today asking me where I got the bracket to install the GM alternator on my R1 Avanti. I figure I might as well post the info
here for all to benefit.


http://i77.photobucket.com/albums/j54/deepnhock/Jeff%20Rice%20Studebaker%20Pictures/1937StudebakerCoupeExpressJeffRicee.jpg

DEEPNHOCK at Gmail.com
Brooklet, Georgia
'37 Coupe Express (never ending project)
'37 Coupe Express Trailer (project)
'61 Hawk (project)
http://community.webshots.com/user/deepnhock

lstude
04-06-2007, 07:23 PM
I have installed a GM one wire alternator on the 64 289 engine in my 52 Commander. I bought the bracket from Dave Thibeault. I haven't wired it yet, but I was told that the one wire goes to the amp gauge and then to the positive post of the battery. I was planing on putting it on the starter Solenoid where the positive battery cable is attached. Is this correct? Here are some photos.

http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l288/lstude/Alternatorlocation001.jpg

http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l288/lstude/Alternatorlocation002.jpg


Leonard Shepherd, editor, The Commanding Leader, Central Virginia Chapter, http://centralvirginiachapter.org/
http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l288/lstude/Mein64Daytonasm.jpghttp://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l288/lstude/52inyardsm-1.jpg

sbca96
04-06-2007, 09:15 PM
That bracket looks bent down in front putting the alt at an angle to
the crank hub. Maybe its an optical illusion?? Make sure the pulley
is true to the crank. My install works fine at idle, charges right at
startup, never noticed a problem. Maybe my R1 revs higher when it is
started, I really never paid attention - certainly not 1500 rpm. It
was late last night when I finally got around to entering this post,
I CAN get some MUCH better pictures, and will probably replace these
on my FTP later. I took these for an Avanti Magazine article I did a
few years ago, my digital camera sucked. I can go out and write down
the wiring sometime this weekend.

Tom

Dick Steinkamp
04-06-2007, 09:22 PM
That should work fine, Len.

Some may not like all that electricity going to the ammeter then back to the battery, but if you use some heavy wire, you should be OK. That's how I wired my Starliner and it's working great after 6 years and 30,000 miles. You may want to put a fuseable link at the alternator just to be on the safe side (I didn't)



http://thenobot.org/images/s2d/s2d_01.jpg

lstude
04-06-2007, 09:22 PM
quote: That bracket looks bent down in front putting the alt at an angle to
the crank hub. Maybe its an optical illusion??

I don't know why it looks bent in the picture. It isn't. It seems true to the pulley. Thanks for the advice, Dick. If it works for you it's gotta work for me.

Leonard Shepherd, editor, The Commanding Leader, Central Virginia Chapter, http://centralvirginiachapter.org/
http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l288/lstude/Mein64Daytonasm.jpghttp://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l288/lstude/52inyardsm-1.jpg

Dick Steinkamp
04-06-2007, 09:29 PM
Ya know...my one wire alternator has one wire. SBCA'a looks like it's got 4 and Len's looks like it's got 3.

What's with that?

http://thenobot.org/images/s2d/s2d_01.jpg

sbca96
04-06-2007, 09:29 PM
I would be more than happy to go out and write down what I did, but at
the moment I am at work - 55 miles away from the Avanti.[:I];)

Tom


quote:Originally posted by lstude

I don't know why it looks bent in the picture. It isn't. It seems true to the pulley. I would like some help with the wiring.

sbca96
04-06-2007, 09:38 PM
Each wire is only one wire ... right?;)

In my pictures one of the two wires in the plug is not used, I think
its the white one. One is the ground wire that already existed in
the wiring harness, which now goes to the ground wire that used to
be attached on the base of the voltage regulator. I believe thats
the one going to the bolt boss at the bottom. The wire going to the
top nut/shaft is the positive voltage. This is all from memory so
take it with caution until I can verify!!

Tom


quote:Originally posted by Dick Steinkamp

SBCA'a looks like it's got 4 and Len's looks like it's got 3.

lstude
04-06-2007, 09:44 PM
Thanks, wiring help would be good. I questioned the guy at NAPA about the wires also since they call this a one wire alternator. He said that it is a one wire for the car, but that other wire with the plug has to be connected to the terminal. I can't remember the reason because I am electrically challenged :( I took that plug from an old GM alternator that came off of an 85 Buick Regal.

Leonard Shepherd, editor, The Commanding Leader, Central Virginia Chapter, http://centralvirginiachapter.org/
http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l288/lstude/Mein64Daytonasm.jpghttp://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l288/lstude/52inyardsm-1.jpg

Dick Steinkamp
04-06-2007, 09:52 PM
A GM one wire alternator has only one wire...the heavy wire from the post in the rear of the alternator. It will not have the plug in the side with the two wires leading out of it.

SBCA and Len, I don't believe you have "one wire" alternators.

SBCA that is probably why yours charges immediately after start up. A one wire GM alternator will need to "see" about 1500 engine RPM's in order to self excite. A normal 3 wire GM alternator will get battery voltage on start up (from one of the two wires in the plug) and charge immediately. The wire you didn't use is probably the one that would normally go to the idiot light. It would be interesting to know how you have it wired. A one wire alternator has just the one wire and it goes to the battery (or through the ammeter if so equipped).

Len, are you SURE that's a one wire alternator? If so, someone removed the plug and inserted that harness in error.







http://thenobot.org/images/s2d/s2d_01.jpg

Dick Steinkamp
04-06-2007, 09:56 PM
quote:Originally posted by lstude

Thanks, wiring help would be good. I questioned the guy at NAPA about the wires also since they call this a one wire alternator. He said that it is a one wire for the car, but that other wire with the plug has to be connected to the terminal.

It's not a one wire alternator. If you want a one wire alternator take it back and exchange it for one. One wire alternators are not used on any production cars. They are an aftermarket product (hot rod). You can kind of fake it with that one by connecting the field wire on that two prong plug to the output of the alternator (I think).

http://thenobot.org/images/s2d/s2d_01.jpg

lstude
04-06-2007, 09:58 PM
quote:Len, are you SURE that's a one wire alternator? If so, someone removed the plug and inserted that harness in error.


I'm not sure of anything at this point.[:p], but the guy at NAPA told me it was and my friend Tom Covington also told me it was. Tom has one wire alternators on his Studebakers. Tom also told me that I needed that wire from the plug connected, but I still can't remember why.

I wired my house and garage, but car wiring mystifies me

64V-K7
04-06-2007, 10:08 PM
The wiring for a Delco 10Si can be setup, using 1 wire or 3 wire, all pretty simple. The one wire setup really uses 2 wires, the BAT and T2. They call it one wire because only one wire leaves the alternator.

The BAT terminal always (in my experience) goes to the starter solenoid junction, to provide power to charge the battery and run the power buss. You don't have to run it to the ammeter.

The T2 is the exciter wire and can either go to only the BAT terminal (short length), which is defined as the one wire setup OR it can be attached to somewhere under the dash to better sense the voltage draw on the circuits. If you attach this to the BAT terminal, you can ( but not always) get a reaction as described as above, where you have to rev the engine to get it to start charging. If T2 is attached to the BAT terminal, even if it charges immediately, you may not always have the correct amount of voltage being supplied by the alternator to satisfy the buss requirements.
If T2 is attached under the dash, it will almost always charge from startup and at idle and supply the correct voltage for the draw on the buss.

The T1 can be attached to an idiot light to indicate a state of charge. It must be run to one side of the light and the other side of the light, to a switched power source. So, you have two 12V sources at the light. When both are active the light will not be on. If the Alternator stops charging, then the T1 field is grounded and the 12V flows, lighting the bulb.

One thing to consider, since most Delco alternators have a higher output, is to increase the gauge of the wire from the solenoid junction to the buss connection and to make an additional fused circuit to handle any additional power goodies you may add.

Bob Johnstone
http://www.studebaker-info.org/7168422/sig2.jpg

Dick Steinkamp
04-06-2007, 10:52 PM
Len,
Here's a wiring diagram for a true one wire.

http://mightymo.org/public_html/images/Projects/DelcoOneWire/AmpMeter.jpg

Here's the one wire on my '54...

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/245/448988122_4abfb6f5a2_o.jpg

Note the plug where the two wire harness would go on a regular GM alternator. Also note only ONE wire leading away from the alternator.

These were "invented" primarily to clean up the engine compartment on a hot rod. The downside is they need to see about 1500 engine RPMs before they begin charging.

Bob's solution sounds great if you really don't need the somewhat limited advantages of a one wire.



http://thenobot.org/images/s2d/s2d_01.jpg

DilloCrafter
04-06-2007, 11:44 PM
Here is a website that explains the difference between a 1-wire and a 3-wire GM alternator. There are some real advantages to the 3-wire. Plus, he sells some parts to help you do a 3-wire setup. Really helpful site: http://www.madelectrical.com/electricaltech/onewire-threewire.shtml

http://rocketdillo.com/studebaker/misc/images/Avacar-hcsdc.gif[/img=left]DilloCrafter

1955 1/2 Ton Pickup
[i]The Red-Headed Amazon
Deep in the heart of Texas

John Kirchhoff
04-07-2007, 11:34 AM
Bob did an excellent job of explaining the whole deal. Personally, I think a true "one wire" system is a half as*ed way of doing it. Sorry, I wouldn't normally use that word here, but I guess this is one case where I have a strong opinion. As far as a one wire cleaning up the engine compartment for hot rodders, apparently they don't know that two or three wires can be wrapped together in a harness or inside of some fancy looking loom. No offense to anyone here, but I think the one wire system is no-brainer set up for dummies. Not as in un-intelligent people, but for people with limited knowledge of electrical systems. To me it's kind of like tennis shoes with velcro instead of shoelaces because you don't have to know very much to yank on a piece of velcro.

I believe far too many people are mystified by electrical systems because no one has ever explained to them in layman terms how things work. If as a kid you ever played with a couple of magnets making them attract or repel each other or made a magnet with a nail, piece of wire and a dry cell battery, you have the basics right there. If you already know or after someone explains to you what causes the above actions, you have the operating principles of the alternator, generator, starter motor, ignition coil and magnetic pickup (also known as signal generator, pulse generator, Hall Effect sensor) used in electronic ignitions, electronic speedometers and cruise controls. Throw in resistors (think of how a water faucet will reduce water pressure), diodes (think of a turnstyle, a one way valve for electricity) transistors (light switch) and capacitor or condenser (little storage battery) and after that an electrical system or component is nothing more than a bunch of colored Tinker Toys stuck together. If I can figure it out, then anyone can!

Dick Steinkamp
04-07-2007, 11:48 AM
Yep, between Bob's explanation and Dillo's link, looks all the info is there. Clearly the 3 wire system is superior from a performance standpoint. However, it looks like if you "cheat" and connect the sensor wire directly to the output post of the alternator you loose the biggest advantage of a multi wire system (you still have the ability to hook up an idiot light, and you don't have to blip the throttle to begin charging, however).

All cars are compromises. If you want the best out of your charging system AND need an idiot light, the three wire is the way to go. If you are an electrical dummy like me and want simple and clean, the one wire has worked fine in thousands of applications. Again my '54 has over 30,000 miles and over 6 years on the one wire set up with absolutely no problems. Your experience may be different.

http://thenobot.org/images/s2d/s2d_01.jpg

sbca96
04-07-2007, 04:52 PM
... and my mounting info;) ... I asked Bob to fill in the details, I
wrote all the wiring stuff into a post I made on Alt. Studebaker years
ago, and Bob had it in a .txt file that has been removed recently due
to the updates on my Honda alt install for Larks and Hawks. When I
posted this, I was going to "steal" the tech from that article I did,
but it was gone.[:I] I know I have the info somewhere, but posting it
up at 3am ... I figured I would let Bob look for it later.:D

Great explanation Bob! I didnt go into anywhere near as much detail!

So I guess the topic title needs to be changed. The Alt I used was
for a 1978 Camaro 305 V8.

Tom


quote:Originally posted by Dick Steinkamp

Yep, between Bob's explanation and Dillo's link, looks all the info is there.

N8N
04-07-2007, 04:57 PM
Speedway Motors sells a harness to use a three wire alt. in a car without an idiot light. I put one in my '55 and it works fine. I did extend the red wire to the starter solenoid for better voltage at the battery.

nate

--
55 Commander Starlight
http://members.cox.net/njnagel

DEEPNHOCK
04-07-2007, 05:11 PM
I only have one question Leonard...
'Splain to this country boy your method of labeling plug wires[:p]
Jeff[8D]


quote:Originally posted by lstude

I have installed a GM one wire alternator on the 64 289 engine in my 52 Commander. I bought the bracket from Dave Thibeault. I haven't wired it yet, but I was told that the one wire goes to the amp gauge and then to the positive post of the battery. I was planing on putting it on the starter Solenoid where the positive battery cable is attached. Is this correct? Here are some photos.

http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l288/lstude/Alternatorlocation001.jpg

sbca96
04-07-2007, 05:27 PM
OK, I went out and looked at what I did on the wiring. Yes, there is
most definately 3 wires. On the Avanti there is a different voltage
regulator than the Larks and Hawks, its also higher output if memory
serves (45 amp?). The GM alt is an internal regulator, which is why
I went through the trouble of replacing the alt - I couldnt find a
replacement VR for under 80 bucks![xx(]

I dont have a wiring schematic handy, so maybe Bob can check this info
out for me. At the VR location, I have three green wires that go into
a harness that goes to the Alt. They are connected by heat shrink so
I am not going to cut them to check continuity, but I think we can all
figure out where they go. There is a dark green thick wire coming out
of a wrapped harness with the two red wires for the stop light switch.
That wire goes to one of the green wires in the alt harness. I think
we can assume this is main power. There is a fat cream colored wire
with a ring terminal on it, this used to go to the base of the VR and
its bolted with one of the green alt harness wires with a ring terminal
to the inner fender. I think we can assume this is ground. Coming out
of the same area of the wiring harness as the ground, there is a small
cream wire, this goes directly to the last green alt wires. I assume
this goes to the ammeter gauge, the other end goes through the green
wire to the red wire on the alt connector. Confused enough?[:p];)

Keep in mind that the topic heading is for R1 Avantis, so the Lark and
the Hawk will NOT have this harness, and mounting will be different.

Tom

lstude
04-07-2007, 05:35 PM
quote:I only have one question Leonard...
'Splain to this country boy your method of labeling plug wires
Jeff

Yeah, Yeah, I know they are supposed to be 1,3,5,7 on the left bank and 2,4,6,8 on the right, but it is much easier for my pea brain to keep the wires straight if I use my method of 1234 on the left and 5678 on the right.

I want to thank everyone who responded for their help.

Leonard Shepherd, editor, The Commanding Leader, Central Virginia Chapter, http://centralvirginiachapter.org/
http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l288/lstude/Mein64Daytonasm.jpghttp://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l288/lstude/52inyardsm-1.jpg

DEEPNHOCK
04-08-2007, 09:43 AM
And you 'splained it quite well!:)
Even I understand it now;)
Jeff[8D]


quote:Originally posted by lstude


quote:I only have one question Leonard...
'Splain to this country boy your method of labeling plug wires
Jeff

Yeah, Yeah, I know they are supposed to be 1,3,5,7 on the left bank and 2,4,6,8 on the right, but it is much easier for my pea brain to keep the wires straight if I use my method of 1234 on the left and 5678 on the right.
I want to thank everyone who responded for their help.
Leonard Shepherd

N8N
04-08-2007, 09:54 AM
I just came back to this thread and realized that there was one more issue to reply to... on a car with an ammeter, really, the output of the alt. should go to the ammeter first and then back to the starter solenoid; otherwise the ammeter will never indicate charge current, it will always register a discharge reflecting the current being used by the vehicle. However, if using a 63 amp version, it might not be a bad idea to upgrade the wiring on a 12V car between the alt. and the ammeter to 8AWG or larger, likewise the wiring between the ammeter and the starter solenoid. Also might be worth looking into adding a shunt around the ammeter to reduce the current flow through the meter so it doesn't peg under high demand conditions.

nate

--
55 Commander Starlight
http://members.cox.net/njnagel

lstude
04-08-2007, 10:19 AM
Yes, Nate, that is what I had planned on doing. I have the #8 wire but I am not sure what a shunt is. I am using all new gauges under the dash instead of the original gauges.

N8N
04-08-2007, 10:24 AM
A shunt would just be a jumper across the two terminals. You'll have to find out what size wire will allow the right amount of current to bypass the ammeter. I would guess it would be around 16 AWG or so but I have absolutely no scientific or engineering basis to back that up :)

If you have a good multimeter like a Fluke you could measure the resistance across the terminals of the ammeter (it will be fairly small,) and assume that full scale is 35-40A or so. If you made a jumper assembly that had exactly the same resistance, that would recalibrate your ammeter so full scale would be 70-80A.

good luck,

nate

--
55 Commander Starlight
http://members.cox.net/njnagel

leyrret
03-15-2009, 08:48 AM
Since this was last discussed I did a little research. As I under stand it an original 3 wire will not charge without excitement from ignition switch. We use these on many types of equipment and this has been my experience with them. Depending on what replacement parts were used a rebuild may not act the same. I assume the one wire has some type residual magnetism in field rotor to excite it. I have one on my 56 that has to reach 1300 or 1400 rpm to start charging acting like a one wire. The one it replaced would start at idle. This linkhttp://www.autorewire.com/tech/charging/Delco10SInandd.html shows wiring for a three wire 10SI and a one wire version. Very similar. Using the true three wire should eliminate the the high rpm requirement. I am going to figure out why mine requires this high rpm cut in as it is annoying as hell. Replacing hydro-boost at moment so can't just now.

jimmijim8
03-15-2009, 12:20 PM
quote:Originally posted by lstude----------- Nate, did you happen to purchase a good Fluke multimeter from me in South Bend a couple years ago?? just kidding, but they are good meters.

Yes, Nate, that is what I had planned on doing. I have the #8 wire but I am not sure what a shunt is. I am using all new gauges under the dash instead of the original gauges.

leyrret
03-15-2009, 02:24 PM
Have reinstalled hydroboost and check alternator. I pulled the plug(#1#2 terminal) and it will charge. In short this is a one wire alternator sold for a three wire application. A regular three terminal will charge at idle as it uses the current from light or resistor to magnetize the field
to start it charging. If your alternator requires high rpm to energize it is not a true three wire
and I suspect you could,as I did, leave both these terminals disconnected and it will work.
I think this probably an attempt to idot proof alternator installation as all you need is the large output terminal connected and it works. Probably prevents a lot of returns due to people not understanding how they work and either destroying alternator or claiming defect when it's not.
The short of it all seems there may be several variations due to modification when rebuilt and they all look alike. If I can remember where I got this one I'm going to return it. It was Autozone or Advance. As Dick said a one wire has only the output,nothing else

N8N
03-15-2009, 02:35 PM
terry,

you could just replace the (internal) regulator with a stock GM regulator and all will be right again. should be less than $20.

nate

--
55 Commander Starlight
http://members.cox.net/njnagel

leyrret
03-15-2009, 03:00 PM
I may have do just that. Hopefully there is not some change inside which could cause problems in doing it. May try to increase voltage to number #1 terminal and see if will have any effect on start point. Also curious if voltage variation between one wire and connecting battery to number #2.(Does the sense wire actually do anything?)See if I can cook this regulator.

leyrret
03-15-2009, 03:49 PM
Battery voltage at #1 resulted in immediate charge at idle. I have a led light for dash and must be insufficient current to energize though it worked with original. On equipment without light they call for 10 ohm resistor so will try that in parallel with light.
I have #2 connect to common hot on dash near battery and saw no difference in voltage connected or disconnected. So if you have one that needs higher rpm to start charging I think I would try a light or 10ohm resistor feed by ignition connected to #1 terminal.
Does this apply to all of these alternator, probably not, but to summarize this one will work as a one wire with neither #1or#2 connect but requires 1400 rpm or so to start. #2 has no effect either way, and a yet to be determine amount of voltage to #1 will give immediate charge.

Dan White
03-15-2009, 05:49 PM
I know Bob has an alternate way to hook up a GM 3 wire alternator as a 1 wire, but this is the way I hooked mine up on my '64 Hawk using a diode instead of a 10 ohm resistor and it works fine.

http://i128.photobucket.com/albums/p167/drwhite55/GMSIalthookup.jpg

Dan White
64 R1 GT
64 R2 GT

N8N
03-15-2009, 06:05 PM
Dan,

if you run terminal 2 back to the starter solenoid (does not have to be a large wire, 16 AWG is fine) you will get better voltage regulation as the regulator will be sensing voltage at the end of the battery cable not at the back of the alternator. Also terminal 1 is the one designed to be connected to an idiot light, but can be connected as you describe if you don't have one. (that's how my car is currently hooked up; it's connected to the harness side of the ballast resistor.)

nate

--
55 Commander Starlight
http://members.cox.net/njnagel

leyrret
03-16-2009, 05:38 AM
For some reason they reduce the voltage to #1 through light or resistor on the true three wire.
Not really sure why. It could be hooked too anything that"s switched with ignition as long as it doesn't back feed the ignition. Would require nothing in line. I've read this could possibly damage regulator
I have one wired to acc side of switch on an old jeep and works so far. I curious now so I'll check and see how this one acts as I put that alternator on there at least 15 years ago, but wasn't wired direct till recently.

leyrret
03-18-2009, 06:15 PM
Was A nice day so pulled tarp off old jeep and fired it up. This is original three wire alternator.
Will not charge with both disconnected nor will it charge with the idiot light wire(#1) disconnected
no matter how many rpm's you use. Connect and it charges immediately. Want to find out if #1 hooked
direct as I have it effects voltage, but don't have time at moment. I seem to have read somewhere it will over charge with out light or resistor. I assumed the alternator on 56J was same. Assume will bite you in the ass everytime.