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View Full Version : Avanti- unbearable Interior Heat/lack of ventilation



wfhenderson
06-13-2010, 09:20 PM
As a relatively new owner of a 1963 Avanti R2, I am really surprised by the amount of ambient heat in the interior. Even opening the floor vents gives me... more blasts of hot air. I have searched the forums on the topic and found relatively little, which encourages me that this is not a problem for everyone and can be addressed.

First, let me say that the rear-hood gasket is present and supple, though probably the last two inches of it on the passenger side, where it curves around to head towards the front of the car, are missing. I have removed and reinstalled a new heater valve (procured from Studebaker International) that seems to operate in REVERSE of the old one (shut is now "open"). I have checked the heater core and the vent doors for proper operation. There are no obvious gaps to the engine compartment. I removed, cleaned and reinstalled the under-dash heater assembly to assure myself that something was not stuck "on", and to the best of my limited knowledge it seems to be working properly.

It is June- and this is rather unbearable. Is this normal? Any ideas?

Collection Doctor
06-13-2010, 09:25 PM
Welcome to the world of Avanti ownership. Heat buildup is a common problem under the hood and later post Studebaker production models had holes in the inner fenders to help relieve it.

StudeRich
06-13-2010, 09:26 PM
Apparently the center tunnel is of concern because there was a Factory service bulletin about installing a cooling fan in the console.

Gunslinger
06-13-2010, 09:37 PM
Welcome to the world of Avanti ownership!

okc63avanti
06-13-2010, 09:38 PM
Make sure all gaskets going though firewall are good. The engine compartment in the Avanti is essentially pressurized when in use and if any gasket in firewall is missing or old and not sealing, hot air will get into the passenger compartment. There were two culprits in my 63 R1 with automatic and AC.

Culprit #1 .... The rubber plug for the hole where a clutch pedal would go through (my car was automatic, no clutch) was missing. I found a plumbers test plug that fit it perfectly.
Culprit #2 .... The steering column gasket where steering column goes through firewall was crumbling away and not sealing. I constructed a new one in part using a toliet bowl mounting gasket (had about the right inner diameter to go around column) and then I sandwiched it between firewall and gasket plate and then used three machine bolts and nuts to mount to firewall.

JDP
06-13-2010, 09:49 PM
Apparently the center tunnel is of concern because there was a Factory service bulletin about installing a cooling fan in the console.

No fan, but a kit to duct air from the cowl vents to the console to help cool the blast furnace of heat. I recall having to wear a sweat band on a really hot day to keep the sweat out of my eyes. Basic rule of thumb, drive a R2 on rain free day when it's from 50-78 degrees, no air gets in the cockpit. They are hot in the summer, cold in the winter and wet in the rain, otherwise they are fine.

barnlark
06-13-2010, 10:25 PM
No fan, but a kit to duct air from the cowl vents to the console to help cool the blast furnace of heat. I recall having to wear a sweat band on a really hot day to keep the sweat out of my eyes. Basic rule of thumb, drive a R2 on rain free day when it's from 50-78 degrees, no air gets in the cockpit. They are hot in the summer, cold in the winter and wet in the rain, otherwise they are fine.

I'm still on the floor laughing. That's one you won't find in the factory brochure!

Chris Pile
06-13-2010, 10:40 PM
Maybe I don't want to get an Avanti.....

JDP
06-13-2010, 10:59 PM
Maybe I don't want to get an Avanti.....


They may not be comfortable at times, but they are so damn pretty, I've owned dozens. They are a pain to drive, except with AC, and murder to work on, but on occasion, they are worth it. BTW, N8 and I successfully installed a Avanti dash pad today on the newest cheap Avanti. I'm keeping track of the labor hours out of curiosity to see what a pro would charge for our labor.

maxpower1954
06-13-2010, 11:16 PM
An Avanti is still more comfortable to than any Hawk or Lark I've ever owned. I should admit my '64 does have nice cold A/C, now that I finally got around to fixing it.

I think the extra ducting so ram air can cool the transmission tunnel was standard on '64s, I know mine has it. Works great until your sitting in traffic for awhile, then the shifter gets yowie!!! hot. Russ Farris

53k
06-14-2010, 07:20 AM
As a relatively new owner of a 1963 Avanti R2, I am really surprised by the amount of ambient heat in the interior. Even opening the floor vents gives me... more blasts of hot air. I have searched the forums on the topic and found relatively little, which encourages me that this is not a problem for everyone and can be addressed.
First, let me say that the rear-hood gasket is present and supple, though probably the last two inches of it on the passenger side, where it curves around to head towards the front of the car, are missing. I have removed and reinstalled a new heater valve (procured from Studebaker International) that seems to operate in REVERSE of the old one (shut is now "open"). I have checked the heater core and the vent doors for proper operation. There are no obvious gaps to the engine compartment. I removed, cleaned and reinstalled the under-dash heater assembly to assure myself that something was not stuck "on", and to the best of my limited knowledge it seems to be working properly.
It is June- and this is rather unbearable. Is this normal? Any ideas?

As others have said, this is characteristic of Avantis. In fact, that's the reason I sold my black/black '63 R-2 4-speed even though it was the tightest, best assembled Avanti I've seen. A 250 mile trip in 90 degree weather was the final straw.
There have been discussions of using a foil insulating material under the carpets and under the firewall cover- both reduces heat and noise. The '64 R-1 I just bought has new carpets and the seller put a product called Dynamat (a layer of rubber covered by thick aluminum foil) under the carpets to reduce noise. The car is air conditioned and has the tunnel cooling update so I doubt if Dynamat is as critical for cooling. You might look in to it.

j.byrd
06-14-2010, 07:48 AM
The steering column, gas pedal, and shifter boot holes were all guilty in our car. The stick-on products or the brushable insulating products are very good for heat resistance and sound reduction. I don't think it will ever be as cool as non-fiberglass cars tho'. Sure miss ours. Good luck and they are worth putting up with , nothing else like 'em, even the comedic value you will get from people trying to guess what it is. John

KOOL R2
06-14-2010, 07:54 AM
I added A/C to my R2. I had the excessive heat build up troubles especially on long trips in hot weather. I did the trans tunnel duct and it worked very well. I put heat shields over the mufflers and sealed the firewall along with insulation under the floor.
So far it is quite acceptable to drive in hot weather

Peter Sant
KOOL R2

Johnnywiffer
06-14-2010, 09:09 AM
Someone said, "Beauty is its own excuse for being." I guess he left out the part about it being HOT!! Be that as it may, I think I'll pass on the next Avanti I see--cheap or not.:p

John

sweetolbob
06-14-2010, 09:41 AM
Mine is an 83 so it may be better, but I've driven it recently in 85 deg weather and it was reasonably comfortable with the vents open.

Just to cover what I've done recently. I've installed a well modified SBC so I have a pretty good source of heat. Before I put in the engine, I detailed the engine compartment and renewed all the rubber parts and sealed them all with caulk. I installed Megamat (Dynamat clone) to the entire interior including the tunnel and firewall and then installed new carpet.

To me the car is no warmer than driving my 2008 Impala with the air off. I may install air in the Avanti in the future but I'm currently not driven to do so by the current interior temperatures.

Bob

jd-stude
06-14-2010, 10:50 AM
My Avanti became tolerably hot afer I installed insulating mat mentioned. I also put the mat on top of the transmission housing under the control cables and sealed any air leaks from the engine compartment. I was driving it without carpet and padding at first so maybe thats why I consider it tolerable now. Ken

PackardV8
06-14-2010, 11:12 AM
The only way to make an Avanti tolerable in hot weather and reduce engine and road noise, is to rebuild the car. The factory engineers have admitted in interviews they ran out of time and money to fix the very obvious problems.
1. Remove the engine. Install a hot rod cable throttle and seal the stock throttle hole. Seal all other holes as per above. Install the foil-faced Dynamat inside the engine compartment and transmission tunnel to reflect heat away before it gets to the fibreglas.
2. Paint the entire interior of the car, from the firewall to the rear of the trunk, including the inside of the roof, with Lizard Skin. It insulates and dampens road noise.
3. Install heat shields above the exhaust pipes and mufflers. Many foreign cars use them. I got mine off Saabs and Volvos at a PicknPull.
4. Install a good aftermarket AC unit, such as Southern Air or Vintage Air.
5. Install an overdrive 5-speed or 4-speed automatic.
It will be a huge investment of time and money, but it makes it a usable car instead of a beautiful sculpture.

thnx, jack vines

wfhenderson
06-14-2010, 12:22 PM
This message is from the original poster of the question:

Thank you all for weighing in. All suggestions are appreciated! It sounds like I have touched a nerve that is already raw for many of us. I love the suggestion to drive an Avanti only when it is between 58 and 78 degrees and not raining. I am surprised I haven't found other threads on the board discussing this topic. You must all be a hearty bunch from the Amazon... or you all live in mostly very cold places where the constant heat is welcome.

As the owner of a 1957 Thunderbird (also), I am quite familiar with cockpit heat and discussions of solutions like dynamat, muffler heat shields, etc. But let me tell you, the Thunderbird crew has NEVER felt what it is like to drive an Avanti in the summer, and I am coming to the conclusion that they are all babies for complaining about THAT car. Hell, at least in my T-Bird I can take off the roof.

Must incredible to me is the fact that the interior vents blow such hot air. Either the seal is leaking hot air at the base of my windshield (not likely), or the inside of the cowl is so hot that it superheats the air in its short journey from cowl vents to footwell, almost like a very effective air-to-air heat exchanger (very likely)

Which leads me to muse how efficient the supercharger is, under the hood, where it operates in probably 180 degree ambient air.

Has anyone else had the experience of the heater control valve from SI that seems to operate backwards from the original?

Does anyone have an article or a link that tells about the transmission tunnel ducting? Has the topic of the interior sauna been covered in detail in any club (or other) publication?

All comments appreciated.... even funny but unhelpful ones! You are a great group and I am proud to be a member.

Bill Henderson

WCP
06-14-2010, 01:00 PM
That heat control unit is not right! You should not get heated air from the vents when the outside levers are in the forward position. Did SI substitute the part? My R2 Avanti does get a bit warm in 95F+ ambient temps. but it is air tight, water tight and gives fresh outside air when the vents are open. A lot of this is simply attention to detail in adjusting windows, weatherseals, and firewall openings. I did close in the underseat tunnels that branch from the main drivetrain tunnel and maybe that has contributed some the the reduction of tunnel heat and noise. I did convert mine to a T5 manual that is quite a bit slimmer than the automatic and probably accounts for the greatest drop in tunnel temp. My 1st Avanti was an R1 with air, and was driven to Estes Park, Colorado and Indianapolis for the National meets in very hot weather with a family aboard quite comfortably cooled - so don't be put off by all the negative comments. Adding air to an R2 as Peter Sant has, is the way to go but at my age (mid 70's) I decided to leave the R2 as is for now. Nevertheless, my wife and I have put 13000 km on the car over the past 3 summers, and my wife does not like to be uncomfortable.

ddub
06-14-2010, 01:11 PM
I bought a replacement heater control valve from SI for my Champ truck and it operates opposite to the original. I assume they cannot source a valve that operates in the original direction.

studegary
06-14-2010, 01:39 PM
I have installed the transmission tunnel cooling kit in a 1963 Avanti and it did make a big improvement, but it was still a hot fiberglass car. You used to be able to buy the whole kit for this installation. Try SI, Dave T. and other vendors for the kit.

WCP
06-14-2010, 04:59 PM
If the control valves operate in reverse then I'm sure SI would indicate so. Remove the control knobs and console cover plates and verify that the control wires are correctly attached to their respective controls. Also make sure that the control wire to the back of the heater box is attached and not binding and that the door into the box is closing properly. With that closed, there should be little air passing thru the heater box. Opening the door to the kickcowl vent should introduce fresh cool outside air. Confirm that that door is opening and closing properly. There can be a lot of lost motion in that control movement due to the wire jacket moving. I've added extra clamps on the cable jacket at the firewall corners to minimize that lost motion. There is definitely something wrong with your Avanti setup. Keep at it and you will sort it out.

wfhenderson
06-14-2010, 09:22 PM
Thank you WCP, Studegary, packardv8 and all others.

Avanti owners-- just checking my sanity-- verify for me: the outside air that comes out the kick panel vents ducts DIRECTLY from the cowl vent opening... it does NOT pass through the heater plenum, right? IE- if the entire heater box was removed, the cowl vents would still work, right?

Well, the air coming out of my kick panel vents when the car is hot is also very HOT.

I read somewhere on one of these forums that a poor seal at the base of the windshield/back of the hood would allow super hot air to be sucked into the cowl vents from the engine compartment. If my cowl air is hot, I am trying to determine if this could be a cause, even though my hood seal gasket looks OK.

I have read all of the responses posted here, and I have to believe that I have a problem that is in excess of normal. My car is HOT-HOT, like the heater is on. I am trying to go through troubleshooting and see if hot water may be circulating through my heater core even though I believe the heat valve is closed tightly.

rockne10
06-14-2010, 09:36 PM
I'm not familiar with the heater hose routing on the Avanti but why not, for trouble-shooting purposes, route a jumper hose from the pump to the block, bypassing the heater core. If the heat persists, the valve and/or core are not the problem.

JDP
06-14-2010, 09:45 PM
Thank you WCP, Studegary, packardv8 and all others.

Avanti owners-- just checking my sanity-- verify for me: the outside air that comes out the kick panel vents ducts DIRECTLY from the cowl vent opening... it does NOT pass through the heater plenum, right? IE- if the entire heater box was removed, the cowl vents would still work, right?

Well, the air coming out of my kick panel vents when the car is hot is also very HOT.

I read somewhere on one of these forums that a poor seal at the base of the windshield/back of the hood would allow super hot air to be sucked into the cowl vents from the engine compartment. If my cowl air is hot, I am trying to determine if this could be a cause, even though my hood seal gasket looks OK.

I have read all of the responses posted here, and I have to believe that I have a problem that is in excess of normal. My car is HOT-HOT, like the heater is on. I am trying to go through troubleshooting and see if hot water may be circulating through my heater core even though I believe the heat valve is closed tightly.

The cowl vents do dump into kick panels and drain into the hog troughs. My theory is the troughs can act like a heat sink, heater box because they are close to the exhaust. I've never felt much cool air coming from those. Studebaker managed to make the hog troughs both rust from the draining water, and heat the incoming air. The main problem is all that hot cast iron passing heat into the cabin, with just fiberglass to block it. The heat runs from the engine/transmission right down the console between the seats

studebaker-R2-4-me
06-14-2010, 10:48 PM
If the control valves operate in reverse then I'm sure SI would indicate so. Remove the control knobs and console cover plates and verify that the control wires are correctly attached to their respective controls. Also make sure that the control wire to the back of the heater box is attached and not binding and that the door into the box is closing properly. With that closed, there should be little air passing thru the heater box. Opening the door to the kickcowl vent should introduce fresh cool outside air. Confirm that that door is opening and closing properly. There can be a lot of lost motion in that control movement due to the wire jacket moving. I've added extra clamps on the cable jacket at the firewall corners to minimize that lost motion. There is definitely something wrong with your Avanti setup. Keep at it and you will sort it out.

I bought a heater control valve from SI for my Hawk and they do work backwards. I took me awhile to figure out the problem when I was fiddling around with controls in the fall to get some heat. I just figured it did not work and used it as a connection point for the heater hoses after installing it. I finally found a decent re-buildable valve at a swap meet. I sent away for the rubber and piston rubber from a guy in California and rebuilt the one I found. I didn't like the fact that the SI replacement valve was operating backwards. They should mention that the valve works backward but they don't. I did complain about the same thing.

Rerun
06-15-2010, 04:16 AM
I drove a '63 R-1 automatic (w/o A/C) for 29 years. I feel your pain. The discomfort level was a major factor in finally selling the car. We once got stuck in bumper-to-bumper traffic, on a 95 degree day when it began to storm. IIRC, I lost about 12 pounds in that sauna!

I finally found the solution, which is the '78 that I am driving now. It affords much more comfort. The vents work, and the A/C blasts cold on the hottest days. The car is much cooler and quieter. Maybe there's a great insulation value to the thick shag carpets that they used in that era.

kmul221
06-15-2010, 07:33 AM
I drove my 55 Speedster from Hamilton to South Bend for a Int.meet,I smelt flesh burning ! It was my legs,I could have cooked dinner on the transmission hump,my Packard Hawk with the water cooled trans.had the same problem.I believe this problem to be common to all C-K's with automatic trans.The GT I now have still is hot but not as bad as the others mentioned.A 53 K I had with manual trans. was no where near as bad.
After that trip the wife no longer wishes to go on long trips in summer heat,she follows in her air conditioned ride.

fstst56
06-15-2010, 08:07 AM
No problem in my '63 I now have...but my '72 was VERY hot !...I put shut-off valves in the heater hoses and thin cardboard behind the kick panel vents, turned on the A/C and was very comfortable after that.

wfhenderson
06-15-2010, 11:18 AM
I believe the external heater hose shut off valve is a good idea for a start. It is easy to do, and having a tank of boiling hot water under the dash can't help my situation.... though by design, this should not be necessary. In fact that is, EXACTLY what the heater control valve under the dash is supposed to do, right?

I will start the process of elimination. I suppose fiberglass is not a very good heat insulator, and with the three-speed automatic transmission and 3.73 gears, I find I am running a rather alarming 3800 PM at 75 MPH.

I am amazed at the temperature under the hood when I open it up. I have owned many high performance cars, and this thing is like a furnace. The temperatire gauge reads just over 180 degrees and I have recored the radiator; so far no overheating. I seriously wanted to avoid adding Air Conditioning to a car that I will drive sparingly. But the current situation is rather unbearable.

53k
06-15-2010, 11:38 AM
I believe the external heater hose shut off valve is a good idea for a start. It is easy to do, and having a tank of boiling hot water under the dash can't help my situation.... though by design, this should not be necessary. In fact that is, EXACTLY what the heater control valve under the dash is supposed to do, right?

I will start the process of elimination. I suppose fiberglass is not a very good heat insulator, and with the three-speed automatic transmission and 3.73 gears, I find I am running a rather alarming 3800 PM at 75 MPH.

I am amazed at the temperature under the hood when I open it up. I have owned many high performance cars, and this thing is like a furnace. The temperatire gauge reads just over 180 degrees and I have recored the radiator; so far no overheating. I seriously wanted to avoid adding Air Conditioning to a car that I will drive sparingly. But the current situation is rather unbearable.
I had the same rpm at speed dilemma on my '64 R-2 automatic- couldn't hear the AM-FM radio even. I wasn't concerned much about performance so I swapped the 3.73 pumpkin for a 3.07. That made a WORLD of difference in cruising and I didn't notice enough performance decrease to bother me (still could burn rubber in a second gear start). I also ran 225x75x15 tires which made the speedometer/odometer much more accurate too (205s are too small in diameter).

Retired
06-15-2010, 12:10 PM
I added a early Satun Station wagon spoiler to the lower edge of our '63 Avanti radiator to assist in cooling. It appears that the turbulance created under the engine compartment causes the hot air to be "sucked" downward and disipated under the car.

WCP
06-15-2010, 12:16 PM
Putting a shutoff valve in the heater hose, as suggested, is a good idea. On that note, do you have the hose hookup to the valve correct? I don't believe that the valve will stay closed properly if the hoses are reversed. A good reference is the parts book illustration. Follow the dotted lines. They do cross over and can be confusing, but the illustration is correct. The seal between the heater fan housing and firewall is important to keep out engine heat from the cab. Another factor is the height of the front end of your car. A lot of Avanti owners prefer the nose-down attitude but that can substantially increase the heat flow down the tunnel. The Avanti height specification calls for 18" from ground to the bottom of the front bumper and 19 5/8" from ground to the bottom of the rear bumper. A ground hugging front end may be good for racing, but not for keeping the car cool. Resolve the hot air out of the vents first. That just shouldn't be. At this point we are planning on attending the meet at Sturbridge, Mass. in August, and I will be happy to compare autos at that time if you are there. An additional thought! You mentioned that the rad was recored - hopefully not with a 4-tube core. That restricts the air flow too much. Actually, a 2-tube radiator works quite well in an Avanti. I know of a certain factory R3 Avanti that runs quite well with a 2-tube radiator.

studegary
06-15-2010, 04:08 PM
On Studebaker V-8s that I only use in the warm weather, I normally replace the heater hose nipples in the engine with pipe plugs and then put the hoses back on the plugs. Everything looks the same, but you have no hot water circulating and no chance of a problem with heater hoses or heater core.

jgrohs
06-16-2010, 02:27 PM
after putting a/c in my 63 for the drive from No. Cal to Glendale, Az, the car was just too hot - especially in 100 degree weather just outside Palm Springs. Besides giving the cooloing system a refresher ( especially popping the freeze plugs and swabbing the block out), I'm planning to put in the saturn airdam, dynamat, maybe the center cowl vents, and whatever else it takes ( short of, I hope, replacing the transmission).

wfhenderson
06-16-2010, 02:44 PM
I suppose I am going to do the same basic things, as suggested here by people with more experience than I have. For a car I don't plan on driving on the highway for long distances, I too would like to avoid changing transmissions, but hearing that poor pushrod engine screaming along at 4000 RPM on the highway really is uncomfortable to my sensibilities.

The carpet in my car is glued to the floor so massively that it will be impossible to remove without destroying it. Thank you, prior owner.

So far I have been unable to find the article about venting air into the transmission tunnel. If anyone has a copy,or a link to it online I would be very appreciative.

tluz
06-16-2010, 09:02 PM
Really interesting thread for me. My '63 R-2399 is still in its body-off-frame state, about to be painted. After painting, I have to deal with this heated cabin issue. The car has A/C, which I have to have converted to modern coolant. That aside, though, I would like to insulate the cabin from the huge amount of heat the engine and exhaust generate. I have already dumped the 3-speed automatic in favor of a World Class T-5 from a '93 Mustang, so I hope for some lessening of heat there. The question is, what else should i do, given that the car is in the most workable state possible?

This thread has touched on butyl liners like Dyna-Mat; ceramic spray-ons like Lizard skin; exhaust heat shields; heater core shut-off valves; new grommets, and other good ideas. Any opinions on the most cost-effective combination of ideas that would improve the comfort level of the car on a hot day? Put another way, if you had a car with a clean body on a rolling rack and easy access to everything, what would you do and why?

jgrohs
06-16-2010, 11:45 PM
service letter number F-1964-6, "Console cooling kit - Avanti models without air conditioning". I'll try to scan a copy tomorrow and post.

looking at this for the the first time in a while, I can see that it won't work for me in the exact way they listed with my newly installed a/c...

Jeff





So far I have been unable to find the article about venting air into the transmission tunnel. If anyone has a copy,or a link to it online I would be very appreciative.

Rich
06-17-2010, 01:31 AM
I agree with Jack Vines and Richard. I went through most of all the suggestions listed here but believe the two most significant things are installing a good front air dam and swapping in a 700-R4. I installed new rubber tubes from the 64 style cowl vents down to the tranny tunnel, sealed the firewall, installed ceramic matting on the lower part of the firewall extending about a foot back on the bottom of the floorboard; ensured the radiator and engine block were clean, installed a 7 blade fan, Dynamat and Dynaliner - car was so much cooler it was amazing. Only time I ever remember even thinking about engine heat was on a 95 degree day in heavy stop'n go traffic for almost an hour. This was on a 64 R-1 with AC (#5367).

Good luck and keep us posted on your progress

Rich

clonelark
06-17-2010, 01:43 AM
I find it amazing this thread has never came up since i have been on the web(at least 10 years). I've talked myself out of owning an Avanti. Think i'll start looking for a 41 LandCruiser.

Rerun
06-17-2010, 04:25 AM
Tom,

Glad to hear that you are still making steady progress. You are going to have one fantastic car when you finish. I think that all of the things that you plan to do are excellent.

I think that there is one more issue that deserves discussion. That is "flow through" ventilation. One problem with the Avanti ventilation is that there is no where for the air to go. When the vents are opened, the cabin takes on a positive pressure and the result is annoying wind noise at the weatherstripping around the windows. If you open a vent window, the flow is improved, but the noise increases. The lack of "flow through" also affects the operation of the A/C unit.

I have heard that some of the later Avanti models had a duct added to allow air to flow out. IIRC this was under the rear seat. I don't know if this is accurate, and/or what years would have had this feature. Perhaps some of our more learned members could comment on this. If such a modification does exist, and is effective, now would be the time to install it in your Avanti.

okc63avanti
06-17-2010, 06:10 AM
They may not be comfortable at times, but they are so damn pretty, I've owned dozens. They are a pain to drive, except with AC, and murder to work on, but on occasion, they are worth it. BTW, N8 and I successfully installed a Avanti dash pad today on the newest cheap Avanti. I'm keeping track of the labor hours out of curiosity to see what a pro would charge for our labor.

JDP ... where did you get your dash pad? Mike and Ed Reynolds have been working with a company in Texas that is making repro dash pads and they have had trouble getting the fit just right. Perhaps they have gotten the bugs worked out now.

If my Avanti has dyna-mat everywhere, inside firewall, on trans hump, inside doors, under carpet and head liner and it will also have AC with 5 speed trannie will I need the cowl ventalation mod for the trans tunnel?

JDP
06-17-2010, 08:33 AM
JDP ... where did you get your dash pad? Mike and Ed Reynolds have been working with a company in Texas that is making repro dash pads and they have had trouble getting the fit just right. Perhaps they have gotten the bugs worked out now.

If my Avanti has dyna-mat everywhere, inside firewall, on trans hump, inside doors, under carpet and head liner and it will also have AC with 5 speed trannie will I need the cowl ventalation mod for the trans tunnel?

There was a NOS pad in the trunk, banged up a little, but decent.

WCP
06-17-2010, 01:07 PM
okc63avanti - you shouldn't have any problem keeping your car cool. I don't know anything about Dyna-mat, but if you seal up your Avanti properly and everything is working as it was designed to do, then you don't need additional tunnel cooling. I don't understand all the fuss over hot avantis. I always put felt padding under the carpets and ensure that the firewall area on both sides has a full hardboard and fibreglass insulation piece under the toe pads. I use no extra insulation under the stock headliners. I make sure that the kickcowl vents seal outside air and open properly. I very well remember driving my R1 Avanti with A/C home from the Indianapolis national meet in 100F air, and being comfortably cool with my wife and son on board. I recall stopping at a thruway rest area and leaving the car run while we took turns at the washroom. When you opened the door, it felt like a blast furnace in your face 'till the door was closed. On that trip, I had a caliper come free and jam the wheel on I75 coming into Dearborn. It was so hot that the small trolley jack that I carried, sunk into the asphalt on the shoulder of the interstate. My present ride is an R2 with Tremec T5 and no A/C. It is similarly assembled as my former R1. It is quite tolerable to drive as I have done, in 95F air on the thruway. Granted, it would be nicer to have A/C, but at this point, I don't think it is worth the effort to modify the engine bay. I typically travel with a bottle of drinking water leaning against the passenger seat and console carpet, and it stays cool enough to drink on a long trip. The carpets and underpad in my car were supplied by JDP and installed with screws as per factory. It is a mistake to glue them in. I have removed and ruined new installations that were glued in, during subsequent restorations. I don't use heat shields. My exhaust system is as supplied by Don Simmonds with the round SS mufflers, 2" all around. Highway noise is quite acceptable under normal driving conditions and really only gets loud if you "get on it".

jgrohs
06-17-2010, 02:19 PM
I find it amazing this thread has never came up since i have been on the web(at least 10 years). I've talked myself out of owning an Avanti. Think i'll start looking for a 41 LandCruiser.

My first Studebaker was a 41 Landcruiser. Definitely a different driving experience than an Avanti!

wfhenderson
06-17-2010, 07:55 PM
Rich- your message just above is very encouraging. If it is possible I will do it. All of you have given me good ideas to try.

Jeff- if you can scan and post the ducting service bulletin that would be great.

Rerun- from my experience, I would never put a duct under the car at the rear. This is a low pressure area that sucks in exhaust gas and smell.

WCP, Measuring, my car sits 17 1/4 from ground to front bumper (compared to 18" as you note) and 22" at the back (compared to 19 5/8 in your specs). I knew my car sat too high in the back but had no idea it was this far out of whack.. I was hoping 1" lowering blocks would be enough but if I am 2 1/2 inches too high I am not sure what I should do....

Tluz- If your car is all apart I would certainly duct the trans tunnel, and put heat insulation matting on the firewall and floor. The front spoiler/air dam sounds like a reasonable idea and a trip to the junkyard and $10 ought to see if that works. I am going to put a shut-off valve in the heater hose, vs. the pipe nipple route. At least the valve can be undone in cold weather.

I really appreciate all the contributions to this thread. I am a new Studebaker owner, and you guys are really something else. I am now far less afraid of my purchase with this kind of community support out there.

bezhawk
06-17-2010, 09:38 PM
Later Avantis that I have worked on have an opening in the rear parcel shelf and a vent to the underneath in the front edge of the tire well.
No need to worry about fumes as it it a one way ducted flapper valve (like EVERY modern car on the road). This along with the later above door weather strips makes for a much more water tight and air whistle free ride.
If you do add the trans cooling ducts, make sure that they are installed like the factory did and have the duct in the cowl area higher than the floor of the cowl . Otherwise it will dump water into the vents when it is wet.

WCP
06-17-2010, 10:02 PM
I would suggest raising the front end with new HD springs or shims under the springs or both, to increase the 17 1/4" to say 18 1/2". This will give the car a better stance and drop the rear some to possibly 20 1/2". You want a good stream of cool air passing under the vehicle. I suspect the air dam will be counterproductive as it will increase turbulence of hot engine air in the tunnel and under the floor. It will improve air passage thru the radiator but I have always found the Avanti system more that adequate as designed and that isn't your problem. However, it is an easy thing to try. Let us know how that works out. I still think that there is something wrong with the outside air distribution system of your car - something not working properly or some modification that defeats or interferes with cool air entry. After 37 years and possibly several owners, you would be surprised at what alterations and "temporary fixes" you can find in Avantis. If you keep at you will eventually find the answer. I'm still troubled by the fact that you say the heater valve works backwards. That just shouldn't be! Maybe I'm not understanding what you mean by backwards.

Gunslinger
06-17-2010, 10:11 PM
When I installed the Saturn air dam under my '70 Avanti, I noticed an immediate 10-15 degree decrease in engine temperature at highway speeds. The air dam does two things...it forces more air up into the radiator and in doing so, decreases air turbulence and drag under the car. The air dam is of course, no value at low speed or sitting and idling in traffic.

It works well enough that when I heard Saturn was being discontinued by GM, I bought another air dam to keep as a spare in case I need it down the road as a replacement.

I've no difference in interior heat...hot is hot, though not particularly uncomfortable unless I drive with the windows sealed like in a rainstorm...then the humidity level goes right up, but the a/c can freeze me out and handles it well.

Rerun
06-18-2010, 04:19 AM
Bruce,

Can you shed any light on this?


I think that there is one more issue that deserves discussion. That is "flow through" ventilation. One problem with the Avanti ventilation is that there is nowhere for the air to go. When the vents are opened, the cabin takes on a positive pressure and the result is annoying wind noise at the weatherstripping around the windows. If you open a vent window, the flow is improved, but the noise increases. The lack of "flow through" also negatively affects the operation of the A/C unit.

I have heard rumor that some of the later Avanti models had a duct added to allow air to flow out. IIRC this was under the rear seat. I don't know if this is accurate, and/or what years would have had this feature. Perhaps some of our more learned members could comment on this.

Gunslinger
06-18-2010, 08:47 AM
I don't know anything about a duct added in later cars to help with ventilation. If so, it was later in production than my '70, which at that time was still essentially all leftover Studebaker parts outside of the engine as it was built. If Avanti Motors installed a modified ventilation system, I would suspect it happened when they went to the GM chassis in the post-'85 cars where they could use the GM system.

I've not even seen an Avanti that has holes drilled in the engine bay to allow hot air to escape. I know they must exist as some have said they have cars with them...just saying I haven't seen one, at least haven't seen one that I recognized as such.

What I generally do is drive with the windows down, wing vents and rear side windows open for continual air movement and ventilation. I try to only drive the car in good weather, but have gotten caught in a few rainstorms...one truly epic downpour accompanied by thunder and lightning of what seemed historic proportions! I only use the a/c sporadically as it does run up engine temperature a bit...nothing unusual for cars of that era.

DEEPNHOCK
06-18-2010, 08:55 AM
A techy kind of answer is it creates a better low air pressure area 'behind' the air dam, and that allows more air to pass through the radiator.
The part about using a Saturn item was purely a caso thing at the time (and now)....and a good one.
Knowing that this trick works, a better, bigger, and custom fit air dam could be made from ABS, or another flexible but stiff plastic.....
If some is good, more is better, and too much is just right.
Make it easy for the hot air to get out from underneath, and there will be less of it to heat soak the interior.
Just thinking out loud..
Jeff:cool:


When I installed the Saturn air dam under my '70 Avanti, I noticed an immediate 10-15 degree decrease in engine temperature at highway speeds. The air dam does two things...it forces more air up into the radiator and in doing so, decreases air turbulence and drag under the car. The air dam is of course, no value at low speed or sitting and idling in traffic.
<snip>

sweetolbob
06-18-2010, 09:36 AM
Originally posted by Gunslinger

I don't know anything about a duct added in later cars to help with ventilation. If so, it was later in production than my '70, which at that time was still essentially all leftover Studebaker parts outside of the engine as it was built. If Avanti Motors installed a modified ventilation system, I would suspect it happened when they went to the GM chassis in the post-'85 cars where they could use the GM system.

Don't know when it started but my 83 has the vent. I recall from my adventures under it that it looked like it could be retrofitted.

Bob

Gunslinger
06-18-2010, 10:14 AM
It does sound like it could be retrofitted...get the one way flapper and cut the correct size opening under the seat and snap or rivet it in. My '69 Corvette has them mounted in the rear deck. They're called air valve seals.

JDP
06-18-2010, 01:13 PM
okc63avanti - you shouldn't have any problem keeping your car cool. I don't know anything about Dyna-mat, but if you seal up your Avanti properly and everything is working as it was designed to do, then you don't need additional tunnel cooling. I don't understand all the fuss over hot avantis. I always put felt padding under the carpets and ensure that the firewall area on both sides has a full hardboard and fibreglass insulation piece under the toe pads. I use no extra insulation under the stock headliners. I make sure that the kickcowl vents seal outside air and open properly. I very well remember driving my R1 Avanti with A/C home from the Indianapolis national meet in 100F air, and being comfortably cool with my wife and son on board. I recall stopping at a thruway rest area and leaving the car run while we took turns at the washroom. When you opened the door, it felt like a blast furnace in your face 'till the door was closed. On that trip, I had a caliper come free and jam the wheel on I75 coming into Dearborn. It was so hot that the small trolley jack that I carried, sunk into the asphalt on the shoulder of the interstate. My present ride is an R2 with Tremec T5 and no A/C. It is similarly assembled as my former R1. It is quite tolerable to drive as I have done, in 95F air on the thruway. Granted, it would be nicer to have A/C, but at this point, I don't think it is worth the effort to modify the engine bay. I typically travel with a bottle of drinking water leaning against the passenger seat and console carpet, and it stays cool enough to drink on a long trip. The carpets and underpad in my car were supplied by JDP and installed with screws as per factory. It is a mistake to glue them in. I have removed and ruined new installations that were glued in, during subsequent restorations. I don't use heat shields. My exhaust system is as supplied by Don Simmonds with the round SS mufflers, 2" all around. Highway noise is quite acceptable under normal driving conditions and really only gets loud if you "get on it".

I've never had a issue with a Avanti with AC, mostly R2's are the blast furnace.

wfhenderson
06-18-2010, 03:18 PM
Gunslinger- what year/model of Saturn am I looking for at the junkyard? Or on eBay?

Gunslinger
06-18-2010, 03:35 PM
The Saturn part number is 21031161. It's called a deflector. I don't know what year and model Saturns it fits. Whether that's a Saturn specific part number or a GM part number I don't know. It's a very easy install by bolting it to the radiator support. I used a length of aluminum bar stock to strengthen the installation, but I've seen at least one other Avanti where the owner simply bolted it directly to the radiator support with no bad effects.

Here's a diagram I copied from Bob Johnstone's website on the installation...

jgrohs
06-18-2010, 06:06 PM
the forum won't let me post a .pdf larger than 19.5kb. try this link

http://docs.google.com/fileview?id=0B9atw-hET5bzNmM2MDlhMzgtYjA2OC00ODkzLTljYWYtZDcwNDU1MWY0ZTAx&hl=en

Jeff


Rich- your message just above is very encouraging. If it is possible I will do it. All of you have given me good ideas to try.

Jeff- if you can scan and post the ducting service bulletin that would be great.



I really appreciate all the contributions to this thread. I am a new Studebaker owner, and you guys are really something else. I am now far less afraid of my purchase with this kind of community support out there.

stall
06-18-2010, 06:07 PM
I drove my 55 Speedster from Hamilton to South Bend for a Int.meet,I smelt flesh burning ! It was my legs,I could have cooked dinner on the transmission hump,my Packard Hawk with the water cooled trans.had the same problem.I believe this problem to be common to all C-K's with automatic trans.The GT I now have still is hot but not as bad as the others mentioned.A 53 K I had with manual trans. was no where near as bad.
After that trip the wife no longer wishes to go on long trips in summer heat,she follows in her air conditioned ride.

My Speedster is Std tranny and is not very hot when driven in the summer. On a related note I own a 64 Corvette Roadster that is unbearable
to drive when ambiant is much above 75F. I ordered new carpet and decided to follow my Vette Forum buddies advice and add a heat / noise barrier. I used about $300 worth of a 5/8 thick composite material underlay. I cannot tell you how pleased I am; Its like a different car, quiet and cool. By the way
it was the drive tunnel that supplied all the Corvette heat.

Happy Trails, Stall

bige
06-18-2010, 07:24 PM
I don't open the vents when it's hot. The car is more comfortable when they are closed in very warm weather. After all, if it's 95 out you sill have 95 degree air coming in and that air is also taking the warm air radiating from the floor and swirling it around and I'm surmising that pressure from the air coming in from open windows is keeping some of that warm air down low also.

I had thoughts of plumbing a tee into the trans tunnel cooling hoses and adapting a vent from one of the 'add on air' vendors or from a brand 'X' so I could close off the air flow in the cold weather so I experimented a little and ran a hose from the cowl to just below the dash and wired the hose up so I got air flow up higher. That air was not superheated so I believe there is some heat transfer going on as it goes from the cowl to the lower floor vents. I still may complete the project someday.

Floor and tunnel insulation under the carpet made a huge difference and as long as the engine temps stay under 200 the car is as tolerable as any non A/C car could be in the hot weather. As engine temp rises so does the interior temp so running cool helps big time.

And, I definitely think a heater hose shut off will help. When my fairly new 'reverse working' heater valve exploded and soaked my rug big time I have had the core by passed. Definitely better than when a working valve was installed. After all, hot water will fill the hose going to the valve and that hose extends into the passenger compartment.

ErnieR

One of the road tests of the period said they were most comfortable with the windows raised, the floor vents opened and the rear windows opened. I haven't tried it.

ErnieR

63r2
06-18-2010, 07:35 PM
The Avanti.
Not only hot on the outside but hot in the inside.
Great topic and responses.
pb

Laemmle
06-18-2010, 07:36 PM
On Studebaker V-8s that I only use in the warm weather, I normally replace the heater hose nipples in the engine with pipe plugs and then put the hoses back on the plugs. Everything looks the same, but you have no hot water circulating and no chance of a problem with heater hoses or heater core.

Gary,

Where do i get these replacement nipples.......what size?

Laemmle
06-18-2010, 07:38 PM
The Saturn part number is 21031161. It's called a deflector. I don't know what year and model Saturns it fits. Whether that's a Saturn specific part number or a GM part number I don't know. It's a very easy install by bolting it to the radiator support. I used a length of aluminum bar stock to strengthen the installation, but I've seen at least one other Avanti where the owner simply bolted it directly to the radiator support with no bad effects.

Here's a diagram I copied from Bob Johnstone's website on the installation...
Put one on my Avanti.......very easy

Laemmle
06-18-2010, 07:40 PM
back in 1967 i had the Studebaker dealer in Miami install A/C in my '64 Avanti..........still runs R12 and i keep 12 cans of R12 in the garage........one pound cans........purchased for 98 cents per can at AID Auto Store in Valley Stream, NY

sbca96
06-18-2010, 09:29 PM
I have a '63 R1, standard trans. My dad has a '69 Avanti II and a 78 Avanti II, none of them
had overheating issues, and none had this blast furnace problem. That said, there is heat
always coming through the dash area, not a lot, but its noticable. I guess if I didnt live near
the beach, heat could store up and cause an uncomfortable problem. Perhaps the solution
is to send your Avantis to me, and the problem will go away, both from you, and while they
are driven around by me. ;)

Tom

studegary
06-19-2010, 07:41 PM
Gary,

Where do i get these replacement nipples.......what size?

These are regular pipe plumbing items - plugs with tapered threads. IIRC, one-half inch, but you can bring the original nipples in and match the threads. Any hardware store, Home Depot, Lowes, etc. will have them for cents. You use the plugs to replace the nipples. This stops all water flow and problems.

tluz
06-19-2010, 10:07 PM
Some super ideas here. Jim, thanks for the kind words and encouragement. I've enjoyed your more frequent posts over the past few months.

As far as the project goes, I'm getting antsy. I've spent what spare weekend time I have for the last two months sanding, cleaning, sanding, repairing cracks and gouges in the fiberglass, sanding, bondo-ing, applying Evercoat products, and sanding some more. I am thoroughly sick and tired of body work and paint preparation. PS, it's not done yet, so there's more whining to come. Threads like this remind me that eventually I'll get the body back on the frame and head for the home stretch.

wfhenderson
06-20-2010, 10:05 AM
The Saturn part number is 21031161. It's called a deflector. I don't know what year and model Saturns it fits. Whether that's a Saturn specific part number or a GM part number I don't know. It's a very easy install by bolting it to the radiator support. I used a length of aluminum bar stock to strengthen the installation, but I've seen at least one other Avanti where the owner simply bolted it directly to the radiator support with no bad effects.

Here's a diagram I copied from Bob Johnstone's website on the installation...

Just a note-- the part number above is one digit off. The correct part number is 21030181 (error is on the Bob Johnstone page, not Gunslinger's error). It is available from GM Online for under $6!. I just ordered two of them. Here is the link:

http://www.gmpartsclub.com/chevy-oem-parts.html

sweetolbob
06-20-2010, 10:24 AM
Posted by wfhenderson

The correct part number is 21030181 (error is on the Bob Johnstone page, not Gunslinger's error). It is available from GM Online for under $6!. I just ordered two of them. Here is the link:

Before you order either part #, I'd wait for Bruce (Gunslinger) to chime in. I recently ordered the 21030161 from Arizona and it is a Saturn Deflector 94-96. It has not arrived yet but I know forum member Bruce McCampbell ordered and installed one on his Avanti and he paid in the $19 range. Not sure of the part #.

Just to be sure, I'll see when mine arrives.

Just a heads up.

Bob

Gunslinger
06-20-2010, 07:57 PM
I got the number I posted directly off the invoice receipt from the Saturn dealer. If I remember, the information on Bob Johnstone's site lists two different Saturn deflectors...one larger than the other. The larger one is in the $25-$30 range...the smaller is much less expensive, but neither is a wallet breaker by any means.

Laemmle
06-22-2010, 04:36 PM
These are regular pipe plumbing items - plugs with tapered threads. IIRC, one-half inch, but you can bring the original nipples in and match the threads. Any hardware store, Home Depot, Lowes, etc. will have them for cents. You use the plugs to replace the nipples. This stops all water flow and problems.

On second thought.......I am afraid to remove the two pipes that are there now......it would be my luck for the pipes to break crack or something to F up.....Guess i will leave well enough alone:-)

wfhenderson
06-28-2010, 03:49 PM
The Saturn part number is 21031161. It's called a deflector. I don't know what year and model Saturns it fits. Whether that's a Saturn specific part number or a GM part number I don't know. It's a very easy install by bolting it to the radiator support. I used a length of aluminum bar stock to strengthen the installation, but I've seen at least one other Avanti where the owner simply bolted it directly to the radiator support with no bad effects....




I had said that I ordered one of these through "GM Parts Club" (internet, www.gmpartsclub.com). Just received a message telling me that this part is discontinued by GM and not available. I tried another GM parts site and got the same message before I could even place an order. If anyone has a lead on any source for this item, it would be much appreciated. visiting a junkyard to try to locate and remove somthing like this from underneath a junked car is no longer my idea of fun. I am willing to face the fact that I have gotten old.

Gunslinger
06-28-2010, 04:02 PM
Go to a GM dealer. Their parts departments are all connected to a nationwide network and can tell you if any dealers nationwide have any in inventory. If so, they can give you a printout so you can contact the dealers directly to get the deflector.

sweetolbob
06-28-2010, 05:37 PM
I agree with Gunslinger and try the local dealer.

If not, I ordered mine last week from http://www.gmpartscenter.net/ $14.85 + $12 shipping.

And as a little self-promotion, Check the Technical section for my install.

Bob

Laemmle
06-28-2010, 06:33 PM
That is why I love a/c in my Avanti.........Paxton's are great to impress the crowd at shows...........but heck I'll take the R12 cool zone any day:-)

bige
06-28-2010, 06:57 PM
I used one I had in my garage that fell off a full sized wagon that I had. I trimmed the ends so that it didn't extend past the radiator suppor. There didn't seem to be any reason to have it extend further.

Point is that so many cars have these deflectors and their plastic construction makes them so easy to adapt if you can't find a saturn deflector pick something else, Grand Am, Cavalier etc.
1493

blackhawk
06-29-2010, 02:54 PM
I bought a heater control valve from SI for my Hawk and they do work backwards. I took me awhile to figure out the problem when I was fiddling around with controls in the fall to get some heat. I just figured it did not work and used it as a connection point for the heater hoses after installing it. I finally found a decent re-buildable valve at a swap meet. I sent away for the rubber and piston rubber from a guy in California and rebuilt the one I found. I didn't like the fact that the SI replacement valve was operating backwards. They should mention that the valve works backward but they don't. I did complain about the same thing.
The heater valve replacement that I installed in my '64 Cruiser came from SI and it too was backwards. If you compare the replacement with the original (at least for the Lark series) you will see that the replacement does not have the temperature sensing thermostatic control. It is strictly manual. By leaving that part off the replacement, the cable motion works in reverse. I tired of having to move the lever to "off" when I wanted it "on", so I modified the lever assembly in the dash so it works in reverse. Now "on" is truly ON! I took photos but am leaving on a long drive in a few minutes so will post later. I cut the sheet metal holding the cable in position on back of the lever, reversed it to be on the other side and pop riveted it in the new position. I think I had to add a small piece of sheet metal to fill the gap that created, but maybe not. The photos will show. It was not a difficult mod in the Cruiser but it irks me that I had to do it. I wish the repro had the heat sensing control and it operated like the original! ~Dale

WCP
06-29-2010, 04:32 PM
Thanks for clarifying the "backwards" aspect of the SI valves. I'm thinking a simple bellcrank as used for aileron control on radio control model aircraft would work here to reverse the motion. Is the valve still plumbed with the water pump pressure against the valve in opening direction or do the hoses also have to be reversed.

jdmavanti
08-07-2010, 07:01 PM
My '63 R1 (4-speed, no A/C) was originally a southern California car, and the service records (the first owner kept everything...) indicate that overheating was a problem early on. The selling dealer (Simonson & Schactmayer in Santa Monica) cut an upside down "U" shaped opening in the front panel, and trimmed it with a rubber molding (like an aftermarket door edge piece). The cutout extended about 1-1/2" above the bumper, and was about 18" wide. It apparently solved the problem, as the service records don't indicate any subsequent trips to the dealer for overheating.

Has anyone else seen this modification?

okc63avanti
08-07-2010, 07:37 PM
My '63 R1 (4-speed, no A/C) was originally a southern California car, and the service records (the first owner kept everything...) indicate that overheating was a problem early on. The selling dealer (Simonson & Schactmayer in Santa Monica) cut an upside down "U" shaped opening in the front panel, and trimmed it with a rubber molding (like an aftermarket door edge piece). The cutout extended about 1-1/2" above the bumper, and was about 18" wide. It apparently solved the problem, as the service records don't indicate any subsequent trips to the dealer for overheating.

Has anyone else seen this modification?

Do you have a picture of what they did?

comatus
08-07-2010, 08:46 PM
That "backwards" heater valve is due to an old NAPA crossover--it was stock on DeSotos and big Chryslers. When I put mine in, I got a brass quarter-turn plumbing valve and put it upstream. It worked, and in those ancient days, cast valves were still made in South Bend, so it's "genuine," too.

jdmavanti
08-07-2010, 08:56 PM
Do you have a picture of what they did?

I'll check, but I may not have kept a photo of the front end. When we re-painted the car, I had the shop fill in the hole back to stock; they did such a good job, the seam where the cutout was is invisible.

wfhenderson
08-07-2010, 11:25 PM
JDMAvanti: That front end modification sounds most unfortunate... as it would surely change the look of the car's design considerably. I recall an old issue of the Avanti magazine (Avanti Club publication) that showed an Avanti with a rather unsightly horseshoe shaped opening in the center of the front to let air in. Looked like hell, if I may offer my personal opinion. You'd think that doing something that major would be an absolute last resort -- after trying electric fans, a bigger radiator, etc.

58 Hawk
08-08-2010, 07:02 AM
I too have a 63 R-2 which gets very hot inside...I am now in the process of installing the insulation material called DYNAMAT EXTREME which is used by many todays restoration shops . I have installed it on the inside firewall , inside and outside of console , floor s, doors and may put is under the transmission floor later. I suggest you buy it on ebay as the product is pricy. It has a rubber adhesive backing over a silver metal like material ( almost like very thin alumumiim foil )
I am still installing my Dynamat Extreme and I bought 2 boxes of 35 sq ft per box.
Good luck , Joe

GEEMAC
08-08-2010, 03:16 PM
i INSTALLED A SATURN AIRDAM UNDER MY 73 AVANTI 4OR5 YRS AGO, COST AT THAT TIME WAS 10 BUCKS, THREE SELF TAPPING SCREWS IN THE BOTTOM OF THE RAD BRACKET AND IT IS ON, RUNNING A 170 THERMOSTAT AND HAS NEVER RAN OVER 172, KNOCK ON WOOD! mac

jdmavanti
08-08-2010, 08:11 PM
JDMAvanti: That front end modification sounds most unfortunate... as it would surely change the look of the car's design considerably. I recall an old issue of the Avanti magazine (Avanti Club publication) that showed an Avanti with a rather unsightly horseshoe shaped opening in the center of the front to let air in. Looked like hell, if I may offer my personal opinion. You'd think that doing something that major would be an absolute last resort -- after trying electric fans, a bigger radiator, etc.

I couldn't find that photo in the old AOAI magazines that I have, but the cutout on my '63 was more of a rectangle in shape, and didn't extend above the bumper by more than an inch and a half, with a straight horizontal line forming the top edge of the opening. The cutout didn't enhance the design, at least as far as I was concerned. Which is why I asked the body shop to restore the front panel to original.

Based on the service records I have, I think S&S did the surgery as a last resort. Were electric automotive cooling fans even available in the late 1960's?

PackardV8
08-17-2010, 08:55 PM
My Avanti is a '63 R1 with AC, but the old hoses lose the R12 over storage time. I'm going to convert to R134 any day now. Drove it across town about thirty miles. Wasn't too bad on the way over, but coming back around 5 P.M. when it was still 90 degrees was really, really bad. The heat from the bare transmission tunnel (interior project in the works) was so hot I couldn't hold my hand on it. Any sane person would have parked it, left the keys in, hitchhiked and reported it stolen. The good news is the old engine never got over 180 degrees in traffic.

Agreed, about a week's labor and $500 worth of Dynamat Xtreme will make a huge difference in the interior temperature. However, then none of the original carpet pieces fit quite right.

jack vines

wfhenderson
07-21-2011, 11:39 PM
For anyone who is still subscribed to this thread, allow me to provide an update, one year after I first asked the question. I installed the Saturn Air Dam, and heat insulated the inside of the firewall and the trans tunnel with Eastwood's heat/sound shield but the real culprit was (I'm sure)the heat generated by that original automatic transmission spinning under the floorboards. I performed a complete swap to a GM 200 4R, with an additional trans fluid cooler, and the results were astounding. The gearshift lever, which previously could not be touched without burning one's hand now is just warm after 75 miles at 75 MPH in 90 degree heat.

Another great advantage is that engine RPMs are reduced to a sane level:


RPM Comparison, old vs new:

at 50 MPH 2300 RPM vs 1700 RPM
at 60 MPH 2700 RPM vs 2000 RPM
at 70, 3100 vs 2300
at 80, 3500 vs 2600
at 90, 3900 vs. 2900


Still, The Avanti seemingly lets no air in while driving, even with all the windows open. I have never experienced such a thing in another car! So it is still quite warm, but it is no longer like sitting in a Swedish sauna.

My engine temp never goes above 180 degrees, and thanks to the trans cooler, the trans fluid never goes above 165. And I am comparing equivalent weather: July in Philadelphia this year was just as stifling as it was July last year.

I have written a very complete article on the transmission swap that I expect will run in the next issue of the Avanti magazine, icluding lots of photos, a complete parts list and all costs.

Thank you to all of you who took the time to contribute your thoughts and ideas to this thread.

Bill Henderson

edpjr
07-21-2011, 11:43 PM
Truer words were never spoken.


No fan, but a kit to duct air from the cowl vents to the console to help cool the blast furnace of heat. I recall having to wear a sweat band on a really hot day to keep the sweat out of my eyes. Basic rule of thumb, drive a R2 on rain free day when it's from 50-78 degrees, no air gets in the cockpit. They are hot in the summer, cold in the winter and wet in the rain, otherwise they are fine.

WCP
07-22-2011, 12:49 PM
Try raising the front end a tad. The nose-down attitude, that everyone seems to favour, reduces the floor pan cooling and increases the hot air stagnation in the tunnel.

JDP
07-22-2011, 01:03 PM
If you expect to end up in hell, a nice trip in a Avanti without AC in today's 100 degree temp and high humidity should ease the transition. "Go to Heaven for the climate, Hell for the company."

Mark Twain

53k
07-22-2011, 04:17 PM
If you expect to end up in hell, a nice trip in a Avanti without AC in today's 100 degree temp and high humidity should ease the transition. "Go to Heaven for the climate, Hell for the company."

Mark Twain
Even an Avanti WITH A/C isn't going to be very comfortable today. I have a '64 with all tinted glass, freshly charged A/C, Dynamat under the carpets and above 85 degrees or so, especially if it is sunny, cooling gets very marginal.
Some years ago I sold my really nice black/black '63 R-2 4-speed because we nearly died going 250 miles in 90-degree temperatures.

52 Ragtop
07-22-2011, 08:44 PM
Just having (more or less) finished my 63 Avanti, here's what I did to "help" the heat inside. I found the biggest thing are the seals on the firewall! LOTS of heat comes through those small holes! LOTS!
I also used Dynamat on the whole inside of my Avanti, firewall, trans tunnel, kick panels, gas tank panel (between the tank & the rear seat) I even put it on the roof. I also covered the complete floor, and doubled it up under the front seats.

Here are some of my thoughts:
1: MUCH quieter when driving
2: Doors sound VERY solid when closing
3: Heat transfer from floor, is minimal!
4: My 63 is MUCH more pleasurable to drive now. No A/C but a lot cooler & quieter


Jim