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Lark Parker
05-22-2008, 08:01 PM
Green was reputed to be an unlucky color for a race car. What was the first green car to run at the Indianapolis 500?

What year had the most rookies in the front row and how many were there?

http://i108.photobucket.com/albums/n4/larkparker/Miscellaneous/caryreduced.jpg Lark Parker
If at first you don't succeed -- you will get a lot of advice.

BobPalma
05-22-2008, 08:38 PM
:) Jim Clark? His rear-engine Ford in 1966?

Obviously, the race with the most rookies in the front row would have been the first race; they were all rookies!

(Donald Davidson I am not....) :DBP

Lark Parker
05-22-2008, 09:05 PM
quote:Originally posted by BobPalma

:) Jim Clark? His rear-engine Ford in 1966?

Obviously, the race with the most rookies in the front row would have been the first race; they were all rookies!

(Donald Davidson I am not....) :DBP


Bob, Bob, Bob. You answered both questions incorrectly or inadequately. [V]
You must forfeit your claim to a prize.

http://i108.photobucket.com/albums/n4/larkparker/Miscellaneous/caryreduced.jpg Lark Parker
If at first you don't succeed -- you will get a lot of advice.

Guido
05-22-2008, 09:17 PM
The obvious answer on the rookies is 1911 (Bob had trouble remembering back that far). No idea on a green car, but wasn't one of the early Studebakers green? Awfully hard to tell with the black and white pictures of the day. Since we are talking Indy, there have only been 4 cars in history that completed the race without making a pit stop. Impossible today, as the cars now burn 1.3 gallons of fuel per lap.

http://thumb14.webshots.net/t/63/663/9/36/86/2567936860097493054TXiheL_th.jpgGuido Salvage - "Where rust is beautiful" and real Studebaker horsepower lives

See pictures here: http://community.webshots.com/user/GuidoSalvage

Hiding and preserving Studebakers in Richmond, Goochland & Louisa, Va.

mbstude
05-22-2008, 09:17 PM
quote:What was the first green car to run at the Indianapolis 500?

A 1911 Henway. Of course, pictures show it to be black and white, with some gray.


quote:What year had the most rookies in the front row and how many were there?

Like BP said, they were all rookies in 1911.

Matthew Burnette
Hazlehurst, GA
http://i280.photobucket.com/albums/kk179/1959S2D/trucks_SNM3.jpg

Studebaker Wheel
05-22-2008, 09:23 PM
http://i230.photobucket.com/albums/ee285/studeq/wheelcenterfoldcarscopy2-1.jpg?t=1211508772

Cannot say for certain it was the first but the Studebaker Special number 37 driven by Zeke Meyer to a 6th place finish in 1932 was green. This car actually belonged to Ab Jenkins and was prepared by George Hunt Studebaker's chief research engineer. It ran in 1931 race as the Hunt-Jenkins Special driven by Tony Gulotta and was leading the race with only 33 laps to go when it spun in oil left by a previous wreck and went through the wall. The car is now owned by Bob Valpey of Center Harbor, NH and is run regularly in vintage race car events. I am not certain if it was painted green for the '31 event but I would guess that it was.

Richard Quinn
editor: Antique Studebaker Review

Lark Parker
05-22-2008, 09:51 PM
With regards to the first green car at INDY:
Mr. Quinn has answered with what I thought was the correct answer until I started researching some more. I did find a reference to 1914 where a green Sunbeam was driven and crashed by a frenchman Paul Chassagne. (Serves him right.)
Great picture of the Studebaker racers so I'm glad I asked anyway..

NOBODY HAS ANSWERED THE ROOKIE QUESTION CORRECTLY.
Has "reading the question" become a lost art?

http://i108.photobucket.com/albums/n4/larkparker/Miscellaneous/caryreduced.jpg Lark Parker
If at first you don't succeed -- you will get a lot of advice.

Guido
05-22-2008, 10:00 PM
quote:Originally posted by Lark Parker
Has "reading the question" become a lost art?
40 rookies in the 1911 race. I wasn't there, but in my lifetime they have started three abreast. If 3 is not the answer, then I will guess 2. :D

http://thumb14.webshots.net/t/63/663/9/36/86/2567936860097493054TXiheL_th.jpgGuido Salvage - "Where rust is beautiful" and real Studebaker horsepower lives

See pictures here: http://community.webshots.com/user/GuidoSalvage

Hiding and preserving Studebakers in Richmond, Goochland & Louisa, Va.

Lark Parker
05-22-2008, 10:13 PM
Wrong, Guido, on both three and two.
Thanks for playing.

http://i108.photobucket.com/albums/n4/larkparker/Miscellaneous/caryreduced.jpg Lark Parker
If at first you don't succeed -- you will get a lot of advice.

Lark Parker
05-22-2008, 10:39 PM
http://i108.photobucket.com/albums/n4/larkparker/11pc2.jpg
Here's a 1911 hint and you stand a good chance of still getting it wrong.

Im going to bed now.

http://i108.photobucket.com/albums/n4/larkparker/Miscellaneous/caryreduced.jpg Lark Parker
If at first you don't succeed -- you will get a lot of advice.

Swifster
05-22-2008, 11:25 PM
Rookies on the front row at Indy in 1911;

1) Lewis Strang

2) Ralph DePalma

3) Harry Endicott

As for the green car thing, green wasn't considered bad luck until 1920 when Gaston Chevrolet wrecked his green race car, killing himself, his riding mechanic and another driver. I'd almost bet a green car started the 1911 race. As there couldn't be too many Knox race cars back then, I'd think the Knox entered in the '11 race may be the same green Knox that Lee Oldfield was killed in while driving in September of 1911. This is just a guess.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Tom - Mulberry, FL

1964 Studebaker Daytona - 289 4V, 4-Speed (Cost To Date: $2125.60)

http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i280/Swifster/rollingpi.gif http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i280/Swifster/The%20Daytona%20File/Avatar%20Size/01-01-05TheStartingPoint.jpg http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i280/Swifster/The%20Daytona%20File/Avatar%20Size/07-17-07FrontClipRemoved.jpg http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i280/Swifster/The%20Daytona%20File/Avatar%20Size/04-11-08CoolingFan.jpg

Studebaker Wheel
05-23-2008, 02:00 AM
In the early years at Indy the front row consisted of five (or four) cars. Qualifying speeds played no role in starting positions as they were only required to meet a certain minimum speed for one lap in order to qualify (75 mph in 1911-1912 for example) and placement in the starting grid was determined by lot (drawing numbers from a hat). Consequently rookies had a better chance of starting out front. I know in the 1913 race 3 of the four drivers on the front row were rookies. The 1911 race had 5 cars in the front row with one being the pace car (a Stoddard-Dayton driven by Carl Graham Fisher) so the other four drivers would all be rookies.

Richard Quinn
editor: Antique Studebaker Review

Swifster
05-23-2008, 08:47 AM
The first race grid was determined when your registration was received. Nothing more. Of course, picking out of the hat was probably as good as any in 1912+.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Tom - Mulberry, FL

1964 Studebaker Daytona - 289 4V, 4-Speed (Cost To Date: $2125.60)

http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i280/Swifster/rollingpi.gif http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i280/Swifster/The%20Daytona%20File/Avatar%20Size/01-01-05TheStartingPoint.jpg http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i280/Swifster/The%20Daytona%20File/Avatar%20Size/07-17-07FrontClipRemoved.jpg http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i280/Swifster/The%20Daytona%20File/Avatar%20Size/04-11-08CoolingFan.jpg

Lark Parker
05-23-2008, 10:42 AM
Richard Quinn has the closest to correct answer but since I have decided to count the rookie riding mechanics, the correct answer is eight. Its my quiz. If Ray Harroun had been in the front row the correct answer would have been seven. And that reminds me of a little known story behind the first 500.

In order to prevent the possible promotion of urban legends, I should advise you that all of what
follows has not been completely verified..
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The starting grid for the 1911 Indianapolis 500 Mile Race was five cars abreast with the pole
position filled by the Stoddard-Dayton pace car. That was the first time a moving pace car was ever used.
All the racers had a driver as well as a riding mechanic whose duty was to look out for traffic in the
rear and to check the oil pressure.
The eventual winner in 1911 was, of course Ray Harroun, who eschewed (now that's a weird word)
the use of a mechanic despite "safety" concerns of the others. Understandable, as the very essence
of auto racing from its beginning was a deep regard for auto safety.
In the past when Ray had picked the riding mechanic from his pit crew, my great uncle, Novi "Shotgun"
Parker being a small but nimble man, would yell "SHOTGUN" and jump in the right-front seat. The word
was used to warn the others that he had a shotgun hidden and would use it if necessary to get
the job.
So "Shotgun" became his nickname and intimidation was his game. After a few races Shotgun
would assumed the riding mechanic's seat without objection.
At the Indy 500 race, Ray Haroun and Shotgun were assigned to the 28th position by luck of the draw.
The crowd fell silent and Jim Nabors started to sing "Back Home Again in Indiana" as the gas balloons passed gas overhead. The reverent quiet was broken by Novi Shotgun Parker loudly chanting his driver's name: HARRoooUN! HARRoooUN! HARRoooUN!
He sounded like a powerful engine revving for the start and his intention was to intimidate the other racers.
Ray Harroun became so angry that he threw Shotgun out of the car and affixed his lady friend's compact mirror to use to look for traffic. Ray correctly though he could do the oil check himself and the car would be quieter and lighter.
History reads that the enlightened Ray Haroun was the winner of that race and Novi Shotgun Parker watched from the stands.
Shotgun Parker: the contributing inventor to the rear view mirror, the convention of shouting "Shotgun"
to claim the front seat, and possibly the naming of the powerful Novi engine that would make the sound
Harrooooun! Harroooun! Harroooun!

http://i108.photobucket.com/albums/n4/larkparker/Miscellaneous/caryreduced.jpg Lark Parker
If at first you don't succeed -- you will get a lot of advice.

mbstude
05-23-2008, 11:31 AM
GREAT story, Lark. (As usual. [^])

However...

Ray Harroun's Marmon didn't have a passenger seat, though it did have the world's first rear view mirror. [8D]

http://www.rumbledrome.com/images/wasp.jpg

http://www.history.com/images/tdih/assets/0530au.jpg

Matthew Burnette
Hazlehurst, GA
http://i280.photobucket.com/albums/kk179/1959S2D/trucks_SNM3.jpg

Studewannabe
05-23-2008, 11:47 AM
Could someone explain the milk drinking at the Indy500,
for a out-of-towner please?

Peet
Pretoria

JBOYLE
05-23-2008, 12:28 PM
quote:Originally posted by Studewannabe

Could someone explain the milk drinking at the Indy500,
for a out-of-towner please?


Indiana is rural, so lots of cows?:D
Another reason, I've heard that milk negates the unwanted effects of castor oil and old engines did throw a lot of it.
WWI pilots drank milk for the same reason.

Green can't be that unlucky of a racing color...it was the national color of England in racing before commercialism took over.

63 Avanti R1 2788
1914 Stutz Bearcat
(George Barris replica)

Washington State

studegary
05-23-2008, 03:18 PM
The drivers and mechanics must have been small men, by today's standards. I have been in a 1931 Studebaker Indy car and other similar cars. I am 5'10" and not stout. That type of car was difficult for me to get into and out of. It isn't so bad once you are in there. I guess that is not much different than it is today. I think that most of the current drivers are 5'0" to 5'6" and 100 to 165 pounds (I know there are a couple of exceptions.).

Gary L.
Wappinger, NY

SDC member since 1968
Studebaker enthusiast much longer

Lark Parker
05-23-2008, 05:51 PM
That's exactly right, Gary. Bob Valpey couldn't give me a ride in his Indy Studebaker racer
because we couldn't both fit. I had to satisfy myserlf by sitting in it and going: Haroon! Haroon!

But the Marmon Wasp appears to be a giant size racer and two small men would fit in it easily.

Some recent high school graduates think they know a lot now but didn't pick up on the idea
that since he sang at the 1911 race, Jim Nabors will be about 118 years old when he sings
at the 500 this year.

For our friend in Pretoria, here is what Wikipedia has to say about the milk:
A long-standing tradition of the Indianapolis 500 is for the victor to drink a bottle of milk immediately after the race. This practice first began in 1936 after Victor Louis Meyer asked for a glass of buttermilk, something his mother had encouraged him to drink on hot days. Afterward it became a ritual as milk companies became sponsors of the race purse and handed a bottle of milk to the winner to promote their product. A sponsorship of currently $10,000 now paid out by the American Dairy Association if the winner swigs the milk in victory lane. Among Indycar drivers, Emerson Fittipaldi is infamous for drinking orange juice instead after his 1993 victory, before he drank the customary milk. Fittipaldi owned citrus farms in Brazil, and wished to promote his industry. He was promptly booed in driver's introductions the following week by the crowd in Milwaukee, Wisconsin, in the heart of "America's Dairyland."

In short, they get paid to drink it now.

http://i108.photobucket.com/albums/n4/larkparker/Miscellaneous/caryreduced.jpg Lark Parker
If at first you don't succeed -- you will get a lot of advice.

Guido
05-23-2008, 06:40 PM
quote:Originally posted by Lark Parker
Some recent high school graduates think they know a lot now but didn't pick up on the idea that since he sang at the 1911 race, Jim Nabors will be about 118 years old when he sings at the 500 this year.
Shazam! ;)

http://thumb14.webshots.net/t/63/663/9/36/86/2567936860097493054TXiheL_th.jpgGuido Salvage - "Where rust is beautiful" and real Studebaker horsepower lives

See pictures here: http://community.webshots.com/user/GuidoSalvage

Hiding and preserving Studebakers in Richmond, Goochland & Louisa, Va.

Studewannabe
05-23-2008, 11:11 PM
Thanks Mr. Parker,

I appreciate it when old traditions are observed in this way.
I do not particularly like the typical champagne spraying.

Peet
Pretoria

studegary
05-26-2008, 08:33 PM
quote:Originally posted by Studewannabe

Thanks Mr. Parker,

I appreciate it when old traditions are observed in this way.
I do not particularly like the typical champagne spraying.

Peet
Pretoria


IIRC, Dan Gurney started the champagne spraying practice. I also do not like this practice/tradition.

Gary L.
Wappinger, NY

SDC member since 1968
Studebaker enthusiast much longer

ClaymoreWW
05-26-2008, 09:35 PM
I'm sure there is a reason that I could find if I scanned wiki or google, but does anyone have a theory (or even a reason) why ancient race photos made the cars "look" fast...leaning toward the direction they were going? The wheels are oval and even the radiator is angled forward while the grandstand posts are vertical.

Any ideas?


quote:Originally posted by mbstude
http://www.history.com/images/tdih/assets/0530au.jpg


--george

1963 Lark Daytona HT - 63V J8 175
http://www.teamwetworks.com/claymore/larkkey.jpg

BobPalma
05-26-2008, 09:43 PM
:) George: There's nothing tricky or hocus-pocus about the photo characteristic you've noted. It's entirely a function of photo technology available at the time. It has to do with the length of time the shutter had to be open while the car was speeding past, to take the photo with the light available. :)BP

mbstude
05-26-2008, 09:46 PM
There was a long thread on the HAMB about this.

http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=208476&showall=1

One quote:

"The old style camera had a "focal plane" shutter. Instead of the lens opeing from the middle of the lens, the shutter traveled from one side to the other to let light in to expose the film.
So, simply put, even with a semi-fast shutter speed (1/60 second or so) the image (speeding car) would "travel" as the shutter traveled from one side to the other to make the exposure. Wheels, especially looked like they were "leaping" forward because the car, in fact was moving, and as the left side of a subject was "done" being photographed, the right side was still being exposed.
Still subjects never had this problem, obviously."

Matthew Burnette
Hazlehurst, GA
http://i280.photobucket.com/albums/kk179/1959S2D/trucks_SNM3.jpg

ClaymoreWW
05-26-2008, 10:05 PM
very cool! see? I knew someone (or two) on here would know! Bob, I knew it was a technology-related thing; I just didn't know what. Thanks!

--george

1963 Lark Daytona HT - 63V J8 175
http://www.teamwetworks.com/claymore/larkkey.jpg