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wayne
08-06-2006, 04:45 PM
I read that someone said that you could adjust the valves in a Avante to .026 to .027 cold. I have a 232 is it the same for it? My book only talks about with it running and hot and that is a real mess.

PackardV8
08-06-2006, 05:45 PM
Second post, but more appropriate subject line for it here.

FWIW, back in the bad old days, I used to be a believer in getting the valve clearances perfect. I even made my own version of the P&G Valve Gapper, using a special track to mount a dial indicator on the bottom valve cover rail of the Stude head. Then, last year, I had a convesation with Ed Iskenderian which put things into perspective.

Seems forty years or so ago, the P&G guys were very proud of their new invention and claimed increases on the order of forty horsepower. One day, they brought it around to Ed to get him to put it into his catalogue. Having run the lash a few thousand times himself, Ed was wasn't convinced. He suggested a test and let them use their dial indicator tool to set the lash to perfection on one of his cams in a SBC and had a dyno test run. He then had his dyno operator, the great Bones Balogh, take a couple of feeler gauges and randomly add about.004" to half the valves and set the other half to about .004" tighter, and run the engine again. The two horspower readings were essentially identical within the limits of the dyno repeatability.

The P&G guys went away mad and eventually faded from hot rod history. On an iron head and block Studebaker V8, cold and close enough is all we need.

thnx, jv.

PackardV8

PackardV8

DEEPNHOCK
08-06-2006, 07:19 PM
Sheesh...
http://www.ctci.org/membership/Gilsgarage/ValveGapperInstructions.htm
http://www.ctci.org/membership/Gilsgarage/ValveGapper.htm
http://www.ctci.org/membership/Gilsgarage/Images/Gapper.jpg

And your story is here...
http://www.dragracingonline.com/technical/camsession/ii_4.html

Glad to be old school. Set'em cold. Drive 'em hard.
Jeff[8D]
http://i77.photobucket.com/albums/j54/deepnhock/Jeff%20Rice%20Studebaker%20Pictures/1937StudebakerCoupeExpressJeffRicee.jpg

DEEPNHOCK at Cox.net
Ocala, FL.[u](For one more month!)</u>
'37 Coupe Express (never ending project)
'37 Coupe Express Trailer (project)
'61 Hawk (project)
http://community.webshots.com/user/deepnhock



quote:Originally posted by PackardV8

Second post, but more appropriate subject line for it here.

FWIW, back in the bad old days, I used to be a believer in getting the valve clearances perfect. I even made my own version of the P&G Valve Gapper, using a special track to mount a dial indicator on the bottom valve cover rail of the Stude head. Then, last year, I had a convesation with Ed Iskenderian which put things into perspective.

Seems forty years or so ago, the P&G guys were very proud of their new invention and claimed increases on the order of forty horsepower. One day, they brought it around to Ed to get him to put it into his catalogue. Having run the lash a few thousand times himself, Ed was wasn't convinced. He suggested a test and let them use their dial indicator tool to set the lash to perfection on one of his cams in a SBC and had a dyno test run. He then had his dyno operator, the great Bones Balogh, take a couple of feeler gauges and randomly add about.004" to half the valves and set the other half to about .004" tighter, and run the engine again. The two horspower readings were essentially identical within the limits of the dyno repeatability.

The P&G guys went away mad and eventually faded from hot rod history. On an iron head and block Studebaker V8, cold and close enough is all we need.
thnx, jv.
PackardV8
PackardV8

Mike Van Veghten
08-06-2006, 07:26 PM
Adjusting the valves running is like jumping on a moving train.
While it can be done, it's not accurate and as you say...it makes a mess.
It's VERY easy to "think" you have a good lash when you are actually no where near close.

Hot or cold (engine off), both work fine. The thing to remember about hot adjust...you must do one side, close things up, start the engine, let it run for a few minutes, the do the other side. That way everything remains close to the same temperature.

OR...let it sit over night, take everything apart, and perform the adjustment at your leasure.

The OEM manual has instructions for doing cold adjustments, ALL engines "first" (on the assembly line) adjustments are done cold and not redone hot. You wont find a race car (of any kind) done hot. By the time a car returns to its pit area...it's well on the way to beung cold enough that the materials are below their growth temperatures. The head of the valve gets the hottest the the heat transfers to the stem. During cool down, it's the opposite, the stem cools faster...it's smaller and it's closer to cooler air. The stem is what does the most elongating during its heat cycles.

Most modern cars and most all motorcycles are also done cold.

Cold and engine not running is the way I do any adjustable valve engine.

Mike

wayne
08-06-2006, 08:17 PM
Cold sure sounds good to me ! Does the .026 to .027 sound about right? Thanks for all the input.g

64V-K7
08-06-2006, 09:09 PM
.027 is a good start to see how you "feel" your feeler gauge and it won't be too loose or tight. Everyone seems to have a different means of interpreting those blades. The second time you can make it a bit tighter if you like.
My method is to have a cold engine, pull the plugs and roll the engine around by pulling the fan belt. You can use the damper on the crank snout easily if you mark off 4 quadrants, starting at the TDC mark and do each cylinder (at TDC) individually, instead of doing a group of valves, at a time.. (if you're over 55, you'll never remember which ones you did anyway):-) I generally do it twice to reduce the chance of error.
The 259 in my Pres can be as quiet as a mouse, which surprised me, quite a bit. The 289 in the Hawk always raps a little, even if I use the same adjustment, so go figure.

Now we go off and start a thread on how to install valve cover gaskets, so they don't leak....

wayne
08-06-2006, 10:51 PM
Thank you very much

blackhawk
08-07-2006, 01:48 AM
quote:Originally posted by Mike Van Veghten

ALL engines "first" (on the assembly line) adjustments are done cold and not redone hot. Mike - I haven't used a valve gapper for probably 40 years, but only because I didn't have access to one after I left home. I have been setting the valves cold since then because it is quick and seems to work okay. So, for me, this discussion is academic. I mentioned the recesses that the valve stems wear into the rocker arms and so did the article on the valve gapper. Those engines coming off thre assembly line had not run long enough to develop this wear and a feeler gauge would give a pretty good reading. No one has addressed this issue on older engines. Judging from what people have said, accuracy is not all that critical. So, I infer that no one considers it a problem that a feeler gauge slips right over this wear spot and gives an inaccurate reading. Guess I will quit sweating the little things. Dale

blackhawk
08-07-2006, 01:55 AM
quote:Originally posted by wayne

Cold sure sounds good to me ! Does the .026 to .027 sound about right? Thanks for all the input.g
Wayne - you're more likely to burn an exhaust valve than an intake. You can get by with a tighter setting on the intakes (.026) but stick with .027 on the exhaust. Dale

Mike Van Veghten
08-07-2006, 03:01 PM
blackhawk -

Since I also have a motor cycle or three, my feeler gages are only about .187" wide. They have to get into a really tight space on the bike heads. Actually they are tapered but the first inch or so is real narrow. When I measure car clearances I push the gage straight in...then as a double check in push it in as kinda-of a sliding sideways motion. By default, straight in will get past the rocker tip wear problem AND it makes me feel better that I've checked it two different directions to make sure I didn't screw up the blade insertion somehow.

Also I think someone mentioned....one doesn't have to shove the gage blade in the gap like he was digging for gold either. I've seen people use both hands to try their best to get a gage into place when actually it should just be a nice two fingered, snug slip fit.

Mike

wayne
08-07-2006, 03:22 PM
If I was to put a dial indicator over the valve on top of rocker arm wouldn't that give me a accurate reading?

Roscomacaw
08-07-2006, 03:34 PM
This seems to get hashed out about every 6 months or so. :D I do my valves cold, do them with a regular, (wide?)-bladed feeler gage. They always run quiet and LONG as a result.
No sacraficed valve covers, no mess on the floor, no burnt fingers, no burnt valves - what else could you want???[^]

I WILL say, that just last week, I got around to adjusting the valves on my 8N Ford tractor's flathead 4. I'd not done this since I put the engine together 17 years ago! There were a couple that were a bit noisy but what the heck - it ran.[}:)] I probably STILL would not have done them except that the intake/exhaust gasket had blown out at the rear and I was tired of listening to it bark at me.:((BTW, I had to commandeer and use NAPA's parts catalog to look up an early 8N so they could order the gaskets I needed. They couldn't find it!)
Since the manifold has to come off to get to the valve covers, I figgerd now was the time to adjust them little sink stoppers.[:I]
I did 'em (cold), got some gasket paper out of the rafters, cut new gaskets for the two valve covers and she runs nice 'n quiet now. Probably good until another 17 years passes or I do - whichever comes first![xx(]
BTW, I was SO pround that I had a set of tappet wrenches to use as well as the knowledge to know why they're necessary!:D

Miscreant at large.

1957 Transtar 1/2ton
1960 Larkvertible V8
1958 Provincial wagon
1953 Commander coupe
1957 President 2-dr
1955 President State
1951 Champion Biz cpe
1963 Daytona project FS

Mike Van Veghten
08-07-2006, 06:54 PM
Wayne -

While it could probably be done, in general...I'd say no. That would depend on you pulling up on the rocker arm. Not a very repeatable method.

Mike

blackhawk
08-07-2006, 11:13 PM
quote:Originally posted by Mike Van Veghten

blackhawk -Since I also have a motor cycle or three, my feeler gages are only about .187" wide. They have to get into a really tight space on the bike heads. Actually they are tapered but the first inch or so is real narrow. When I measure car clearances I push the gage straight in...then as a double check in push it in as kinda-of a sliding sideways motion. By default, straight in will get past the rocker tip wear problem AND it makes me feel better that I've checked it two different directions to make sure I didn't screw up the blade insertion somehow.
Also I think someone mentioned....one doesn't have to shove the gage blade in the gap like he was digging for gold either. I've seen people use both hands to try their best to get a gage into place when actually it should just be a nice two fingered, snug slip fit.
Mike
Thanks for getting back on this Mike. I'm sorry some others are tired of questions on this topic but, hey, I want to understand how others do this. I don't want to continue doing things the way I always have if there is a better way. I too check from a couple different angles and cycle through the 8 cylinders at least twice to double check. I don't have the narrow feeler gauges though; didn't know there was such a thing. I agree... it does defeat the purpose of a "feeler" gauge if one forces the blade in, not to mention that it can hasten the ruin of the feeler gauge! Cheers... Dale

gecoe
08-08-2006, 12:55 AM
I use two feeler gauges to do this job. I use the proper size gauge and also pull the next size bigger gauge out. I find that I'm a lot more accurate if I first set the valve lash with the correct gauge and then check to make sure the slightly larger gauge won't fit the gap.

Gerry