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32tom
08-04-2006, 05:00 PM
Is it really that critical in the real world? Some of you old timers (like me) must have swapped bellhousings and trans in the back yard before you knew any better. Did they fly apart? I've bolted up a hell of a lot of B/Hs and or trans adapters for other makes and never heard of this proceedure. I don't want to be stupid about it but I will be on a creeper under the truck. Convince me.

DEEPNHOCK
08-04-2006, 05:42 PM
In a word... YES, it is that important.
It is a twenty minute procedure that assures you that the thing is centered.
Think about it.
Would you just stuff in stock main bearings without checking the clearance?
Same deal here. If you take the shortcut, you take the risk.
Having done a dozenteen Stude engines over the years, it is far easier to check it than to tear one apart later because you didn't check it.
And checking it will cost you about $10 for a cheapie dial indicator and a couple scraps of angle or flat stock.
Jeff[8D]


quote:Originally posted by 32tom

Is it really that critical in the real world? Some of you old timers (like me) must have swapped bellhousings and trans in the back yard before you knew any better. Did they fly apart? I've bolted up a hell of a lot of B/Hs and or trans adapters for other makes and never heard of this proceedure. I don't want to be stupid about it but I will be on a creeper under the truck. Convince me.


http://i77.photobucket.com/albums/j54/deepnhock/Jeff%20Rice%20Studebaker%20Pictures/1937StudebakerCoupeExpressJeffRicee.jpg

DEEPNHOCK at Cox.net
Ocala, FL.[u](For one more month!)</u>
'37 Coupe Express (never ending project)
'37 Coupe Express Trailer (project)
'61 Hawk (project)
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Dick Steinkamp
08-04-2006, 05:59 PM
quote:Originally posted by 32tom
I've bolted up a hell of a lot of B/Hs and or trans adapters for other makes and never heard of this proceedure.


The key phrase there is "other makes". For whatever reason, Studebaker didn't have the manufacturing tolerences in this area to allow for interchangeability like most other makes.


http://thenobot.org/images/s2d/s2d_01.jpg

N8N
08-04-2006, 06:53 PM
most other makes? VW is the only mfgr's product I have worked on where the bellhousings were truly interchangeable without dial in. All other FSM's have recommended dialing them in.

nate

--
55 Commander Starlight
http://home.comcast.net/~njnagel

Dwain G.
08-04-2006, 07:13 PM
It was a problem with other makes too. I remember the question "why does my trans pop out of gear, I've tried everything"? being asked in the tech pages of Hot Rod Magazine in the '50's and '60s'.
I also read in a Ford manual circa 1965 that if the bell housing face run-out was excessive, you could shim the bell housing away from the engine block to compensate!
The run-out, both face and bore, should always be checked. It could be found within specs! You are more likely to get away with skipping it if the car has a manual transmssion as opposed to an automatic. Studebaker torque converter flex plates are small, but plenty strong IF not stressed by mis-alignment or gouged by lock washers.

Dwain G.

Dick Steinkamp
08-04-2006, 07:41 PM
quote:Originally posted by Dwain G.

It was a problem with other makes too.


I'm sure it was, but I think it was the exception rather than the rule. With Studes, I think it is the rule rather than the exception.


http://thenobot.org/images/s2d/s2d_01.jpg

bams50
08-04-2006, 07:52 PM
WOW- learn something new every day [:0]

I grew up in my father's garage; he was a top-notch, well-respected, college-trained mechanic... and while I can't ever remember working with him on a Stude, I NEVER EVER saw him do this procedure on the literally hundreds of engine and/or trans. swaps he did over the years; and never heard of a problem with it... only place I've ever heard about this is here, and made a mental note to keep it in mind when I work on Studes- but others? [xx(]

Robert K. Andrews Owner- IoMT (Island of Misfit Toys!)
Parish, central NY 13131
http://www.cardomain.com/ride/2358680/1

32tom
08-04-2006, 10:24 PM
http://fototime.com/%7B2778B0C1-482D-457A-B39E-3059634BCF28%7D/picture.JPG

this is why I ask. Does anybody have the dimensions of tool J-2045? I assume it's close to the same as the Stude input shaft but, the only one I have is still working. Part of my skepticizim is that every non-Stude input shaft had some clearance built in which would lead to eratic readings. I would like to get everything together before the change over. I'll have to sleeve the bearing retainer for the Stude throw out bearing (anybody care to mic the Stude bearing retainer so I can match Stude's clearance?) and either sleeve the pilot shaft or make a new pilot bearing.

BTW I'm using a 56 2E truck shop manual for what little information that I have.
Please forgive the sloppy silicone job.:)

StudeRich
08-05-2006, 03:16 AM
Tom; I don't know what you are building, looks like some non-stude Ford? top shifter or something, but that bellhousing is a CAR housing! You mentioned being "under the truck", if it's going in a truck, you need the truck housing with the big tall cast legs (rear engine mount brackets) bolted on for the rear mounts to fit a truck. On the other hand if you are using a mount under the trans. the weight of the Stude. V-8 could break the alluminum case tranny, just something to think about. :)

Alan
08-05-2006, 10:54 AM
Looks like a T5 out of a Chevy S10 truck of the mid to late 80's. They are a nice tranny but go easy on the power shifting the trannys are not rated high enough for the torque of a 289 Stude. Trans dapt of Ceritos has the pilot bearings, Stude is the same as Chrysler OD. (0.9385")it is about .001" larger than the 15/16" hole in the Stude crank. The Chev trans pilot is .592" and the Stude is .750" The pic is a little dark so I can't see much detail but if it is an Avanti Chev pattern bellhousing it should have holes on the side to help for mounting to the truck.

Roscomacaw
08-05-2006, 12:59 PM
Tom, what engine DOES your truck have? You said you're using a 2E manual for giudance but you didn't say whether your truck IS a 2E (a 1956) or what engine it has.
As Rich has said, it looks like that's a Stude V8 car bellhousing. I HAVE seen these used in a Stude truck with a bit of modification to make the single rear mount work with the truck's second crossmember, so that might be OK if that's the case here.

But, yeah. For whatever reason, Stude individually fitted each engine to it's bellhousing so when (over the course of time) bellhousings or engines get swapped, there's a fair chance they're NOT going to be within specs as far as alignment goes.
Such misalignment can cause undue bearing wear and clutch chatter on standard shift vehicles and shatter flex plate discs on automatic-tranny cars.
It's a hassle to do - there's no denying that. But as Jeff says, it's easier to do it now than when the truck's all back together.[xx(]

Miscreant at large.

1957 Transtar 1/2ton
1960 Larkvertible V8
1958 Provincial wagon
1953 Commander coupe
1957 President 2-dr
1955 President State
1951 Champion Biz cpe
1963 Daytona project FS

32tom
08-05-2006, 11:38 PM
http://fototime.com/%7B769F5633-94E6-4C34-B3D1-6A3579B91B40%7D/picture.JPG

I'm sorry not enough background information. The truck is a 34 Ford P/U that I bought like this. 55 259 It was originally built with an adapter bolted up to a 39 Ford trans. The second owner blew the Ford trans and somebody replaced it with a 55 Stude top shift 3 spd. truck trans. I'm pretty sure the existing B/H didn't come from the factory connected to this engine.

It does chatter if you slip the clutch.

I bought the 4spd B/H in the picture. The S-10 trans is needed to locate the shifter in front of the seat. I do know others have used the Ford T-5 behind Studes in later model vehicles where the shifter location is not an issue.

I'm not a gear jammer, but I do like to wind the engine out a little. The little engine pulls nice! The Stude truck trans doesn't like to shift without some grinding. It's a truck trans. I sunday shift it but if you have the Rs up a little it will grind unless you let the Rs fall back. I'm not talking big RPMs here. Just winding it out in what ever gear it's in. The O.D. gear will come in handy for a proposed trip to the salt next year.

Is the chattering a function of not being concentric with the crank or the trans surface not being square with the center line? The book says to throw the B/H away if it's out more than .006. I was thinking the chatter was possibly a flywheel, disc or pressure plate problem that I'd have to inspect and correct at the time of the change over.

The book I have shows a special tool inserted into the crank to dial in the crank center line before repinning. If there is a better home grown way of doing it, I'm all ears. I'm not a machinist but I slept at a flea bag hotel last night.

Thanks for your help. I should have supplied more info.

JDP
08-06-2006, 12:09 AM
N8 made a tool for us with a "L" shaped piece of steel. The short leg of the L bolts to the crank flange using two flywheel bolts, the long end of the L faces toward the rear and mounts the dial indicator on the inside of the round bore that the transmission fits in.

http://stude.com/sig.jpg
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Arnold Md.
64 Daytona HT
63 R2 4 speed GT Hawk
63 GT Hawk
63 Avanti R1/AC
63 Avanti R2/4 speed
62 Lark 2 door
62 GT(parts car)
60 Lark convert
60 Hawk
56 Power Hawk/4 speed/289
52 Starliner
51 Commander

Roscomacaw
08-06-2006, 12:16 AM
Unless that old truck trans is a truck 4-spd, it shouldn't grind at all going into 2nd or 3rd. 1st is not synchro'd tho, so no easy downshift to 1st but then that's not what you're saying anyway. Probably a victim of worn synchros on 2nd and 3rd.
Of course, clutch chatter can be a number of things and a stick shift Stude is probably more tolerant than the .004 they call out, but most BH's are further out than that if they're mismatched to the block. And that CAN cause chatter.:(
Later Stude truck V8 3spds were a heftier side-loader unit and were used behind the Golden Hawks that wore a supercharger.

Anyway, you don't "throw away" the BH - you remove it's locator pins, align it to the the crankshaft using a dial indicator that's attached to the crank (I use a magnetic base to do this) and adjusted so the tip of the indicator rides the ID of the tranny hole. You snug the bolts that hold the BH to the block, check the runout and adjust the BH with a mallet until the runout's in spec. Then drill new locator holes for pins that'll establish alingment (I use roll pins myself).

Miscreant at large.

1957 Transtar 1/2ton
1960 Larkvertible V8
1958 Provincial wagon
1953 Commander coupe
1957 President 2-dr
1955 President State
1951 Champion Biz cpe
1963 Daytona project FS

32tom
08-06-2006, 12:28 PM
quote:Originally posted by Mr.Biggs

Unless that old truck trans is a truck 4-spd, it shouldn't grind at all going into 2nd or 3rd. 1st is not synchro'd tho, so no easy downshift to 1st but then that's not what you're saying anyway. Probably a victim of worn synchros on 2nd and 3rd.
Of course, clutch chatter can be a number of things and a stick shift Stude is probably more tolerant than the .004 they call out, but most BH's are further out than that if they're mismatched to the block. And that CAN cause chatter.:(
Later Stude truck V8 3spds were a heftier side-loader unit and were used behind the Golden Hawks that wore a supercharger.

Anyway, you don't "throw away" the BH - you remove it's locator pins, align it to the the crankshaft using a dial indicator that's attached to the crank (I use a magnetic base to do this) and adjusted so the tip of the indicator rides the ID of the tranny hole. You snug the bolts that hold the BH to the block, check the runout and adjust the BH with a mallet until the runout's in spec. Then drill new locator holes for pins that'll establish alingment (I use roll pins myself).

Miscreant at large.

1957 Transtar 1/2ton
1960 Larkvertible V8
1958 Provincial wagon
1953 Commander coupe
1957 President 2-dr
1955 President State
1951 Champion Biz cpe
1963 Daytona project FS


OK The light bulb is starting to glow. (I think):D The throw away quote in the manual refered to face runout.

So you remove the special bolts, align it, drill out different bolt holes to 3/8" and then drive in 3/8" roll pins to lock in the new alignment? I was having a hard time with the concept of drilling a precise hole with a hand held drill motor. The roll pin idea makes sense to me.

Thanks for the tip on the throw out bearing.

The 4 spd B/H is the only Stude B/H I've ever had in my fat little fists.

If the existing B/H has the locator pins,(who knows who did what?) I might reinstall it and check the runout to see how far out it actually is. I'll feel better if I find it to be out a lot.

Thanks for putting up with a Studebaker rookie.

Roscomacaw
08-06-2006, 01:30 PM
"Thanks for putting up with a Studebaker rookie."

That's why we're (the veterans)here. We want, ever so dearly, to infect others with our obsession. We're kinda like the tempting trail of bread crumbs that lead into a TRAP![:0]

Miscreant at large.

1957 Transtar 1/2ton
1960 Larkvertible V8
1958 Provincial wagon
1953 Commander coupe
1957 President 2-dr
1955 President State
1951 Champion Biz cpe
1963 Daytona project FS

Roscomacaw
08-06-2006, 01:35 PM
BTW, miracles DO happen. These alignment pins were obviously drilled with SOME degree of consistency. Every once in awhile - if you've got enough bellhousings laying around to try several - you luck upon one that's within specs when you bolt it up and check it.[:0]

I've had this happen twice of late. Once, when fitting a standrad shift BH where an automatic BH had set originally - and again going with an automatic BH where a Stick shift BH had been. Just pure, dumb luck. But I'll take it![}:)]

Miscreant at large.

1957 Transtar 1/2ton
1960 Larkvertible V8
1958 Provincial wagon
1953 Commander coupe
1957 President 2-dr
1955 President State
1951 Champion Biz cpe
1963 Daytona project FS

ddub
08-06-2006, 06:04 PM
I'm curious about just how many different Stude V8 bell housings there are. Manual and auto, 3 sp, 4 sp, truck. Can someone say how many distinct and non interchangeable variations there are?

Don Wilson
53 Commander Hardtop
64 Champ 1/2 ton
Centralia, WA

Transtar60
08-06-2006, 06:21 PM
Too many to list here. Many variations are do to different machining of the same castings, as in later V8 truck bellhousings that are machined differently for various truck trannies.

DEEPNHOCK
08-06-2006, 07:08 PM
Just did a T-5 setup behind a 351W Ford in that '49 F-1 pickup. It has a Lakewood bellhousing and their instructions are [u]adamant</u> about dialing in the bellhousing. Lakewood also sells the adjustable eccentric bellhousing studs to help move the housing around before you lock it down. What a pita. The Stude methos is actually a whole lot easier to do. Only thing I would suggest is to always check the housing out first thing. It may well not need anything.
It sure is a lot easier to do this procedure with a short block during reassembly.
Jeff[8D]

http://i77.photobucket.com/albums/j54/deepnhock/Jeff%20Rice%20Studebaker%20Pictures/1937StudebakerCoupeExpressJeffRicee.jpg

DEEPNHOCK at Cox.net
Ocala, FL.[u](For one more month!)</u>
'37 Coupe Express (never ending project)
'37 Coupe Express Trailer (project)
'61 Hawk (project)
http://community.webshots.com/user/deepnhock

Jerry Johnson
08-07-2006, 12:20 PM
I just finished this procedure on a 51 Stude 170 cu six. I was thinking as you were, this might not be necessary, but after I bolted up the bell housing using the existing alignment bolts (pilots), I checked the face run out and found it to be .005, good enough. But when I checked the bore run out it was over .030 out. I donít know how critical the .004 callout is, but I was fairly sure thirty was to much.

I had a heck of a time figuring out how to attach the dial indicator, but after considerable attempts to locate one of the tools it calls for, I used a universal alignment tool to line up the clutch pressure plate and clutch disk and bolted them down prior to bolting on the bell housing. After I had the bell housing on, I made a simple attachment device by welding on a flat piece of metal to a very small c-clamp and then welded a nut to the metal piece which my indicator rod would screw into. I then clamped this home made device to the clutch pressure plate through the pressure plate bore.

I took a while to bang the housing up and down as well as back and forth until I got it dialed in. While doing this process the pilot bolts are removed, but all the rest of the bolts were in place and snugged up.

After I got it dialed in, I drilled two ľ in holes, one on each side next to the holes which normally have the pilot bolts in them. I drove in two ľ in roll pins from the engine side (the steel side) so as to avoid the initial pressure a roll pin might put on the cast iron bell housing. I then drilled out the pilot holes until the pilots would go in freely and put them in and torqued everything to spec.

It helps to have someone around to turn the engine over while you are tapping the bell housing around. Also as I am doing a frame off, so the engine is on an engine stand making all this much more easy then you will have it.

I got the roll pin idea off the forum here and it worked out very well.

Regards,
Jerry

Roscomacaw
08-07-2006, 02:07 PM
The last one I did - just a few months ago - was with nothing more than the crank and main bearings installed in the short block. (Having the main bearings installed is paramount to getting consistent readings[:o)])
With the block setting upside down on a bench and an assistant to turn the crank, it was almost FUN![:0][}:)] And BTW, THIS was one of the instances where I got lucky.
It was a block that had had a truck 4-spd bellhousing on it before, yet I'm going to mount an automatic tranny (HD FOM) on it for future use.
I had 3 different FOM bellhousings to try and the 3rd one, when mounted up (the tapered alignment pins were happy with their placement), produced a variance of .003. We checked it about 4 times before I let out a "YEE-HA!" of joy. Such a deal.[:p]

Miscreant at large.

1957 Transtar 1/2ton
1960 Larkvertible V8
1958 Provincial wagon
1953 Commander coupe
1957 President 2-dr
1955 President State
1951 Champion Biz cpe
1963 Daytona project FS

bams50
08-07-2006, 05:58 PM
*WHEW*

I've read the posts, and still have NO idea what it's all about...[xx(][|)]

Note to self: NEVER separate a Stude engine and trans..........[}:)]

Robert K. Andrews Owner- IoMT (Island of Misfit Toys!)
Parish, central NY 13131
http://www.cardomain.com/ride/2358680/1

N8N
08-07-2006, 06:07 PM
The basic idea is that the transmission is located to the engine by the hole in the bellhousing (the bolt holes are there just to hold it in place; the trans is theoretically just loose enough in the hole to allow it to slide in and out easily, i.e. a few thousandths of an inch clearance.) When mating an engine and bellhousing that have not previously been together, the whole idea is to make sure that the center of the hole in the bellhousing is within a few thousandths of the center of the rear of the crankshaft. This way the clutch runs true and also there's as little load as possible on the transmission bearings. Misalignment of the tranny input shaft can cause all sorts of issues, up to and including the transmission jumping out of gear because the combination of misalignment and wear causes the gears to be all out of wack.

It really sounds harder than it is in practice, although it is a two person job unless you rig some way to turn the engine from the rear while you're watching the dial indicator. You don't even really need a dial indicator, it'd be perfectly possible to simply use a thin piece of metal bolted to the crank, properly bent, and a stack of feeler gauges; it's just easier to do with a dial indicator (IMHO)

I do have a pair of reams, one for the stock size dowel pins and one for the factory oversize ones, cost me about $10-15 each at Grainger, that was the only investment other than a HF dial indicator and base (I threw out most of the base, and the dial indicator can be useful for other jobs as well, like checking rotor or wheel runout or rear axle endplay, although again it is only helpful, not necessary, if you have a set of feelers and are ingenious enough)

nate

--
55 Commander Starlight
http://home.comcast.net/~njnagel

32tom
08-07-2006, 08:44 PM
Wow the concept of a B/H being .030 off center never entered my mind.