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View Full Version : 51 Champ Business Coupe drive train changeover



Starlite51
06-27-2006, 01:32 AM
I want to change out the small Champ six , 3 spd OD and stock rear end
to a Stude 289 V8 , 4 speed and TT rear end ....

Has anyone done this update ? what am I faced with?

I know 350 Bow Ties and 289Blue Ovals are done all the time ..
but I want to keep it all Stude.. with some teeth ... :D

(and I will make sure the orginal Champ drive train goes to a deserving SDC member .. it's a good engine , trans and rear end )

any and all help is appreciated --- I am located in El Dorado Hills CA .. I want this to look factory ...

and if someone has built 289 Stude for sale give me a shout ... my engine builder is freaking out .. build a Stude!! he's scared.... but I promised I would not "out " him if he built me one

my email is cruzerdog@mac.com

John

tomnoller
06-27-2006, 07:42 AM
John - Get in touch with David Carter in San Jose. Sorry, I don't have his email or phone number but maybe he's lurking. David made a similar conversion.

DEEPNHOCK
06-27-2006, 07:43 AM
You might want to get in touch with Jim Turner.
Although the year and model is not the same, he did an all Stude 289 update to his convertible that is to die for. Right down to the stock air cleaner hiding a new AFB carb....
He can share the do's and dont's with you.
Jeff[8D]



quote:Originally posted by Starlite51

I want to change out the small Champ six , 3 spd OD and stock rear end
to a Stude 289 V8 , 4 speed and TT rear end ....

Has anyone done this update ? what am I faced with?

I know 350 Bow Ties and 289Blue Ovals are done all the time ..
but I want to keep it all Stude.. with some teeth ... :D

(and I will make sure the orginal Champ drive train goes to a deserving SDC member .. it's a good engine , trans and rear end )

any and all help is appreciated --- I am located in El Dorado Hills CA .. I want this to look factory ...

and if someone has built 289 Stude for sale give me a shout ... my engine builder is freaking out .. build a Stude!! he's scared.... but I promised I would not "out " him if he built me one

my email is cruzerdog@mac.com

John

Roscomacaw
06-27-2006, 12:47 PM
Well, since the V8 debuted in '51 and shared the same basic frame and sheet metal as the Champion models, the engine fit is a piece of cake. Of course, there'll be some mod work to make that 4-spd and related pieces work where they'd never been. But that's certainly do-able[^]

There was an R2-powered 51 Biz Cpe that used to show at all the Los Angeles area shows for years. I've not seen or heard of it for some time now.:(

As has been mentioned, David Carter did a Biz coupe with a V8 only his turned the wheels thru a T-86 OD tranny. David wanted power AND economy from the OD option.:D

Miscreant at large.

1957 Transtar 1/2ton
1960 Larkvertible V8
1958 Provincial wagon
1953 Commander coupe
1957 President 2-dr
1955 President State
1951 Champion Biz cpe
1963 Daytona project FS

Starlite51
06-27-2006, 01:11 PM
thanks for the leads .. I will follow up on them..
also does anyone know the width of a TT rear end from hub to hub?

I am thinking it might be wider than my stock 51 rear end .. which means I would have to narrow it -- (if my memory serves me right they used the same frame 53 till the end ..
and my 51 was narrower than the 53 )

John

El Dorado Hills CA

Dick Steinkamp
06-27-2006, 01:19 PM
quote:Originally posted by Starlite51

thanks for the leads .. I will follow up on them..
also does anyone know the width of a TT rear end from hub to hub?

I am thinking it might be wider than my stock 51 rear end .. which means I would have to narrow it -- (if my memory serves me right they used the same frame 53 till the end ..
and my 51 was narrower than the 53 )

John

El Dorado Hills CA


IIRC, David used a later Dana 44 in his biz coupe. It was wider than the stock one, but the relatively stock wheels and tires still fit and actully looked better than stock...not "tucked" as much under the car.

BTW, David's email address is...

dcat917 at sbcglobal dot net



http://thenobot.org/images/s2d/s2d_01.jpg

Starlite51
06-27-2006, 02:57 PM
Dick

thanks -- that email address is now dead ... I guess we need to call the Studebaker Police

Studebakers West, Redwood City said that I could use the TT center and my '51 axles and it would fit and keep the stock width -- but advised me to get new HD front springs
and ... Carl has made new HD leaf springs for the rear in the past ...

seems everything else fits rather nicely ---

I will add frt disc brakes and 12 volt system... and of course vintage air ... 103 in Sacramento and 117 in Redding this past week

should look fairly stock but with a nice Stude 289 growl

John

Roscomacaw
06-28-2006, 12:58 PM
I know David was planning on moving to Florida soon. His folks live there and he was gonna go help them in their advancing years.:)

Miscreant at large.

1957 Transtar 1/2ton
1960 Larkvertible V8
1958 Provincial wagon
1953 Commander coupe
1957 President 2-dr
1955 President State
1951 Champion Biz cpe
1963 Daytona project FS

N8N
06-28-2006, 01:24 PM
Did a '51 Champion use a 44 rear end? that is what you'll want to have; also will want to use the later model 56-up finned brakes front and rear no doubt. This will require 5 lug wheels - I can't remember if a '51 used 4-lug wheels or only '50. If the rear end is other than a 44, I would try to find a 44 from a '51 Commander and proceed as Studebakers West suggested.

good luck

nate

--
55 Commander Starlight
62 Daytona hardtop
http://home.comcast.net/~njnagel

60Lark
06-28-2006, 01:49 PM
'51 Had 5-Lug Wheels

Studebaker Fever
60 Lark
51 Champion
Phil

glen
06-28-2006, 01:59 PM
Plus what Mr. B. added about David Carter's 51 BC was that
besides power and OD...he wanted A/C for those Florida days,
if he headed that way. Last contact that I had was Oct 05.
He was still at his San Jose,CA location and the sbcglobal
dot net email.

Glen Brose
53 Champion 2 dr Sedan

Roscomacaw
06-28-2006, 02:25 PM
I'm not sure if the 51-2 rear WAS a 44 but it did use the same GEARSETS as later 44s so I'm assuming it was equal to a 44 even if it wasn't designated as such;) The carrier's the same too. The differences were the housing and the axle shafts. :D Maybe Dwain or BP can elaborate. If they don't, I'll use my fancy new TW index to look it up later.:D

Miscreant at large.

1957 Transtar 1/2ton
1960 Larkvertible V8
1958 Provincial wagon
1953 Commander coupe
1957 President 2-dr
1955 President State
1951 Champion Biz cpe
1963 Daytona project FS

rockne10
06-28-2006, 08:40 PM
Nate,
I thought the finned drums came in 63 and the larger drums prior to that were not finned and not self-adjusting.[?]

For appearance sake, can the self-adjusting brakes be installed inside the non-finned drums?

N8N
06-28-2006, 10:39 PM
all brakes from 56-up are basically the same. '55 is similar but used a different hub that took different bearings and seals. The finned drums were introduced on "President" (including Golden Hawk) models in '56 while the smooth drums continued on the other models. The backing plates, shoes, etc. were all the same and the only difference between self adjusting and non self adjusting is in the lower spring, star wheel assembly, and obviously the addition of the actual adjuster hardware itself.

I'm talking only about V-8 brakes here, the six brakes were smaller, but similar in design. Actually the rear shoes from a V-8 and the front shoes for a six are the same.

nate

--
55 Commander Starlight
62 Daytona hardtop
http://home.comcast.net/~njnagel

Starlite51
06-29-2006, 01:00 AM
thanks everyone --- you guys are saving me a lot of trial and error stuff... can't say enough good things about this forum and SDC

I got hooked up with Ken Pyle in Three Rivers thru this forum ..I am planning on turning the entire project over to him to build and install everything at his shop .. he is a walking " Studebaker manual"

I am now looking for a good core - a 289 full flow to take to Ken and have him build it ...

I am not going all out in the horsepower dept ..been that route ... old age has cured me of having monster engines [B)]

John






El Dorado Hills CA

Oldcals
06-29-2006, 11:15 PM
John, A couple of months ago I bought a T Cab from a fellow in Chico who runs a fairly large auto and truck repair shop. Gary dabbles in old car stuff also and he told me that if I knew anyone that needed one he had two Studebaker V-8s in his shop that he would love to get out of his way. I'm not sure what they are and I wouldn't know if I saw them unless it was written on them but if you or anyone else is interested email me and I'll provide Gary's last name and phone number.
Come to think of it if I decide to part out the T-Cab it has a V-8 that I won't be needing. All of my studes are of the M series variety so V-8s don't interest me too much. Fred

Starlite51
06-29-2006, 11:33 PM
Fred

I will need a 62 thru 64? Stude 289 v8, full flow block , I would be delighted to find an Avanti motor ready to drop in that would be the ticket

--- the early 289's just don't fit my plan

pass me his name and number to this email address renoswapmeet@aol.com
or give him my cell 916-764-0700

thanks for your help

John

El Dorado Hills CA

Roscomacaw
06-30-2006, 12:14 AM
John, check your E-mail for a message from me. :D

Miscreant at large.

1957 Transtar 1/2ton
1960 Larkvertible V8
1958 Provincial wagon
1953 Commander coupe
1957 President 2-dr
1955 President State
1951 Champion Biz cpe
1963 Daytona project FS

Starlite51
07-02-2006, 09:17 PM
Thank you David Carter ...where ever you are!!!!!

I never found his current email in SC , but I found this page on how he built the '51 Buisness Coupe

I definitely owe him some money .. he has solved many issues with building a Stude V8 powered '51 ( and possiblly the '50 & '52 which I think are basically the same .. )

this page should be archived in the SDC page some where ... his attention to detail is a work of art and very careful planning

click on the link below if you have never seen the baby blue '51 Business coupe that he built ...

http://www.geocities.com/dcat917/

John

El Dorado Hills CA

glen
07-02-2006, 09:44 PM
I know how you feel John, the documentation that he did
on the 51, which I just reviewed again, is the same type
he did on my 1953 Champion(one of the 2 that didn''t meet
the demands of the California freeways)and is no longer
available to view....I did though copy, for reference, page
by page, after bringing "Charlene" home, in 2003.

The Best of Greetings to David!!! wherever he may be.

Glen Brose
53 Champion 2 dr Sedan

Roscomacaw
07-04-2006, 12:23 PM
I've had the extreme pleasure of sitting in that beautiful 51 of David's. It want's for NOTHING in my opinion.[^]

Starlight, your assumption regarding a 52 is correct. But doing something similar to a '50 would be a whole different story.[}:)]

I might add that David hounded me to sell him my '51 Biz coupe project for quite some time (in retrospect, I wish I had) and I kept turning down his offers.
Then he found this one in the midwest somewhere and did it proud. With less than 3000 of these Biz coupes built, there's certainly not many left in existence. Most of them were bought by businessmen and used hard in the course of their work. No way to accurately predict how many are still around. Rosters and registrations don't reflect the ones that are sitting in or behind garages or lurking under vegetative overgrowth. Save 'em while you can[8D]!

Miscreant at large.

1957 Transtar 1/2ton
1960 Larkvertible V8
1958 Provincial wagon
1953 Commander coupe
1957 President 2-dr
1955 President State
1951 Champion Biz cpe
1963 Daytona project FS

glen
07-04-2006, 04:04 PM
From what I rememeber David telling me, he had
already found the Business Coupe, I thought he
said in the mountains of Washington or Wyoming(?)
and was having it delivered within a couple of days
after I took home the 1953 Champion, so he could
start on his real car. He also said that the seller
failed to describe the actual condition...it came
with more alittle more "Cancer" than he was lead
to believe. However, for those us who have seen the
final result, truly a master piece of work. With
a little bit of pride, the gas pedal in his B.C.,
is the spare that he sent home with me originally,
for "Charlene."

Glen Brose
53 Champion 2 dr Sedan

Starlite51
07-04-2006, 04:47 PM
Glen,

after pouring over the pictures & details of Carters coupe -- he must of had $30,000+ bucks in that car... (which I am sure will blow the minds of some here)

my '51 coupe was owned in the 70's by Karel Staple (Karel Staple Chapter of the Studebaker Drivers Club is named after him ) .. it has traveled back n fourth across the US many times.. it is an all original CA car .. and it has ABSOLUTELY NO RUST ANYWHERE or has ever been in an accident -- body is straight and dent free ...the paint is faded away .. and interioris rotted. I do think the original owner was a traveling salesman based on the oil change stickers on the door jamb from many different states

I have had it for about 7 years ... pickeled in my warehouse --(sorry I still haven't figured out how to put the picutres here yet ) I was gonna go with the new Mustang Cobra supercharged motor & 6 speed but this coupe deserves to keep it's Studebaker heritage and Carter proved you can do it with class and style ... and roadabilty using a Studebaker power plant
John

El Dorado Hills CA

dcat917
07-06-2006, 10:01 PM
Howdy StudeNuts,

I was trying to get in touch with Dick Steinkamp and came across this thread why goggling. Thanks for all the kudos from the group, the car and I are now in Taylors South Carolina and doing well. I plan on attending the Tri-State Zone meet in Asheville, NC this September if all goes well.

I'm pretty much finished with the Business Coupe and it will probably be my last restoration. I've done 3 now and this one broke the bank and my interests in doing another. I've got receipts for $36K+ and will never see that money again. Not that I would do anything different if I had to do it again, I just didn't think it would be so costly.

I still need to fix the rear axle correctly. I had to change the rear axle end perches on the swap and their off on the pinion angle. I had two 4 degree wedges between the leaf springs and perch and that fixed the u-joint flutter but the perches would shift and make a horrible clunking sound when I turned the car to tightly.

I need to find some new perches for the 2.5" axle tube that are 2.5" wide before I start pulling the rear end out. Another option would be to get some 8 degree shims fabricated instead. I'd appreciate some leads on the new spring perches if anyone has come across them.

My new email address is dcat917 at charter dot net if anyone wants to talk shop or catch up, drop me a line.


David Carter
Taylors, SC
1951 Business Coupe

royvaldez
07-07-2006, 11:29 AM
Hello, You need to call Randy Varozza Machine & Mfg. He rebuilds 289 motors. Also, he installs. He is located off in Placerville. His phone number is 530-306-4925. Also, I would like to meet with you. I live in Camino. I have 3 1950 champions. One of those is a Starlight. Randy is one of the youngest person who worked for his father who owned the Studebaker dealership in Placerville.

Sonny
07-09-2006, 03:31 PM
quote:Originally posted by Mr.Biggs

I've had the extreme pleasure of sitting in that beautiful 51 of David's. It want's for NOTHING in my opinion.[^]

Starlight, your assumption regarding a 52 is correct. But doing something similar to a '50 would be a whole different story.[}:)]

I might add that David hounded me to sell him my '51 Biz coupe project for quite some time (in retrospect, I wish I had) and I kept turning down his offers.
Then he found this one in the midwest somewhere and did it proud. With less than 3000 of these Biz coupes built, there's certainly not many left in existence. Most of them were bought by businessmen and used hard in the course of their work. No way to accurately predict how many are still around. Rosters and registrations don't reflect the ones that are sitting in or behind garages or lurking under vegetative overgrowth. Save 'em while you can[8D]!

Miscreant at large.

1957 Transtar 1/2ton
1960 Larkvertible V8
1958 Provincial wagon
1953 Commander coupe
1957 President 2-dr
1955 President State
1951 Champion Biz cpe
1963 Daytona project FS


I can tell you Starlite51 that I'm with Bob on the '50 being a WHOLE different story. I'm in, (been in), the process of doing the V8 into the Champion Starlight coupe thing, and it's all gotta be hand made to fit/work. I need to get off my butt and post picks of my progress to date, I have the new camera, but no place to work on it yet. That's on the list too! :D

Sonny
http://RacingStudebakers.com