PDA

View Full Version : OEM partial flow oil filter opinion poll



PackardV8
06-22-2006, 12:45 PM
Topic for discussion on 1951-62 Studebaker V8 with partial flow oil filter. Vote for one:

1. The partial-flow oil filter is just a controlled leak of oil pressure. I believe the engine is better served by plugging the filter inlet and thus raising the system oil pressure. Then, just change oil every three months.

2. The partial-flow oil filter is better than nothing and I would never recommend disconnecting it.



PackardV8

Roscomacaw
06-22-2006, 12:57 PM
If you're good about changing it every 3K miles, you don't need it. If not, can't hurt.:D

Miscreant at large.

1957 Transtar 1/2ton
1960 Larkvertible V8
1958 Provincial wagon
1953 Commander coupe
1957 President 2-dr
1955 President State
1951 Champion Biz cpe
1963 Daytona project FS

sbca96
06-22-2006, 02:24 PM
I lean toward item 1. I had a partial flow on the Hawk engine, after
the rebuild I never put it back on. The reading that I did on it, was
that it will collect dirt, and then dump it back into the engine. It
didnt seem like it would be that effective regardless if it did that
or not. My other fear was to have two more rubber lines that could
cause a catastophic leak. Has anyone had the oil line to the pressure
gauge break?? My brother did, guess how fast 6 quarts of oil can end
up on the bottom of your hood and driveway ...... [B)]

Tom

Roscomacaw
06-22-2006, 02:40 PM
The last one I did, I put steel lines on the filter.:D Some things, you can improve upon.;)

This 75K Champion engine that I recently pulled the pan off of - it had an inch deep layer of grud (Grunge-Mud)in the well of the pan! Would a filter have avoided some of that? Hard to say - not knowing the history of the car and how it was serviced. But I'd bet it would have. Of course, the type of oil used and the frequency of change could have had a bearing as well.:)

Truth is, I've got an early V8 that's been rebuilt and I'm gonna install it without a filter. We'll see how it goes.

Miscreant at large.

1957 Transtar 1/2ton
1960 Larkvertible V8
1958 Provincial wagon
1953 Commander coupe
1957 President 2-dr
1955 President State
1951 Champion Biz cpe
1963 Daytona project FS

Alan
06-22-2006, 02:41 PM
Or (3) put a Franz on it and change your toilet paper every 1,000 miles.

Mike Van Veghten
06-22-2006, 03:01 PM
#1

Youl'd have to drive about a million miles to actually filter much oil thru that system.

Yea...I know some say different...but think about it... the route the oil has to take just to get to the filter...how much of it actually gets there...

And how often each different molecule of oil will actually take that route to the filter when most of the oil is routed to the main and rod bearings, then the rockers...THEN...all the way to the front of the head.

I'd say not much.

Mike

55Commander
06-22-2006, 03:22 PM
I removed mine and ran for 30k miles before I lost a main bearing,
not sure if it was cause and effect or just conincidence.

When I went through the motor I still didn't put the filter back on.
I am pretty dilligent about changing the oil though.

StudeRich
06-22-2006, 06:06 PM
I definetly vote for #2 (it's better than nothing) I too also prefer the Frantz tissue paper filters, have had them on 6 or 8 Studes. with excellent sucess right from re-builds to present (43 years).
You are NOT correct about the loss of oil pressure,though.All bi-pass type oil filters are SAE mandated to have a metered orface in the inlet casting or fitting to restrict the flow, :) so your concern is not valid! Rich.


quote:Originally posted by PackardV8

Topic for discussion on 1951-62 Studebaker V8 with partial flow oil filter. Vote for one:

1. The partial-flow oil filter is just a controlled leak of oil pressure. I believe the engine is better served by plugging the filter inlet and thus raising the system oil pressure. Then, just change oil every three months.

2. The partial-flow oil filter is better than nothing and I would never recommend disconnecting it.

PackardV8


StudeRich
Ferndale, WA

garyash
06-22-2006, 06:15 PM
I'll vote for #2. I think a lot of oil actually does flow through a partial flow filter. As Tom (sbca96) mentioned in his post, even the little capillary tube to the oil pressure gauge can dump a lot of oil in no time when it's broken. The external oil filters all had a flow restricting orifice. I've heard people quote orifice diameters of .045" to .060" diameter. The oil pressure in a reasonably tight engine is set by the oil pump pressure relief spring, I think, and the oil pump has enough capacity to feed the bearings and the filter.

When I installed my filter system, I actually did a little test with an .060" orifice in front of 3 ft of 3/16" steel tubing. I hooked the garden hose with a pressure gauge to the orifice end and collected the water in a bucket that came out the tube. Hot oil has about the same viscosity as 70F water. I got about 1 quart per minute flow at about 30 psi. The flow was only slightly higher without the 3 ft of tubing, so the tube doesn't have much pressure drop. So, for every hour you drive, a 6-quart sump (with filter) would send all of the oil through the filter about 10 times. Even allowing for some pressure drop through the filter itself and outlet tube, the flow won't change much.

I've never seen any numbers for how many quarts per minute an oil pump will deliver, but I don't think stealing a quart or so a minute will starve the rest of the engine. Any filter is better than no filter, especially when using modern oils with detergents. The old cars that ran without filters assumed non-detergent oil that settled particles in sludge, which you were supposed to drain every few thousand miles.

Gary Ash
Dartmouth, MA
'48 M5
'65 Wagonaire Commander
'63 Wagonaire Standard
www.studegarage.com

PackardV8
06-22-2006, 07:33 PM
Hi, Everyone, thanks for the shared opinions. Seems pretty evenly divided at this point.

Aside to StudeRich, FWIW, read the text, "controlled leak" is one definition of a metered orfice. The only way a partial flow filter works is bleeding off some oil pressure. Conversely, a full flow filter runs all the oil through the filter at full pressure before it goes to any bearings.

How's this hypothesis? On a new, tight engine, the oil pump can probably produce sufficient pressure to never miss what is bled off through the partial flow filter. On an engine with many miles on it, where the pressure is below oil pump bypass levels, every little metered orfice stopped helps keep up oil pressure. Agree or disagree?

thnx, jv.

PackardV8

gordr
06-22-2006, 09:03 PM
quote:Originally posted by PackardV8

Hi, Everyone, thanks for the shared opinions. Seems pretty evenly divided at this point.

Aside to StudeRich, FWIW, read the text, "controlled leak" is one definition of a metered orfice. The only way a partial flow filter works is bleeding off some oil pressure. Conversely, a full flow filter runs all the oil through the filter at full pressure before it goes to any bearings.

How's this hypothesis? On a new, tight engine, the oil pump can probably produce sufficient pressure to never miss what is bled off through the partial flow filter. On an engine with many miles on it, where the pressure is below oil pump bypass levels, every little metered orfice stopped helps keep up oil pressure. Agree or disagree?

thnx, jv.

PackardV8


Well, for what it's worth, you can put me firmly in the #2 camp. Bypass oil filters were standard equipment on all military vehicles that I'm familiar with, and I doubt the DOD would have specified filters if they weren't expected to be effective.

I've seen plenty of "full-flow" engines with thick sludge, both Stude and brand X. And you know most of that sludge is composed of extremely fine particulates, and perhaps some gelled hydrocarbons. All stuff that will get through any filter. Sludge that has settled out, and become stationary really isn't that harmful. The purpose of the filters is to trap particles in the size range that can damage the engine by being abrasive. Look at the oil pickup screen on any engine. Fine sand, for example, will easily pass through it. If a little sliver of steel is shed from the distributor drive gear, say, it can easily pass through that screen and circulate through the system. Filters, either bypass or full-flow, can catch stuff like that.

I've read claims that the filter media in bypass filters traps smaller particles than that used in full-flow filters. I don't know if it's true, or not. If so, it might pay to add a bypass filter to engines already equipped with full-flow filters.

I really doubt the pressure loss from a .050" orifice would have much effect on the oil distribution in a worn engine. Remember, all the bearing points that receive oil pressure from the pump have worn to the point that THEY present a greater cross-sectional area for oil flow than they did when new. Main and rod bearings, lifter bores, rocker arms, cam bearings; they all have increased clearance, and can pass more oil flow than they did when new. In any case, it'd be very easy to check: just run a worn engine with bypass filter until it's completely warmed up, and read the idle oil pressure. Use a precision gauge if you have one, otherwise maybe mark the face of the stock gauge with a dry-erase marker. Disconnect and block the feed line to the bypass filter, and repeat. See if you can discern a difference.

It's not really oil pressure that keeps an engine alive, anyway, it's flow. As system pressure diminishes through wear on engine internals, flow through the fixed orifice on the filter will also diminish. But it will increase elsewhere in the engine. IN a really tired Stude V8, so much oil, in fact, can flow to the cylinder heads that they become full, and the level in the pan drops to the point the pump starts sucking air. I've seen that for myself.

Gord Richmond, within Weasel range of the Alberta Badlands

sbca96
06-23-2006, 12:08 AM
quote:Originally posted by gordr
Well, for what it's worth, you can put me firmly in the #2 camp. Bypass oil filters were standard equipment on all military vehicles that I'm familiar with, and I doubt the DOD would have specified filters if they weren't expected to be effective.

Currently working at a company that deals quite a lot with the DOD,
this statement makes me chuckle.;)[:I]

I went back and forth on this issue, as I mentioned. I ended up not
using the filter, and to be honest, the oil stayed pretty clean. Now
I WOULDNT plug the filter block on a full flow engine.[:p]

Tom

len
06-23-2006, 10:24 AM
I would vote for No. 2. I feel my oil stayed cleaner with the filter hooked up and noticed no difference in pressure either way. When the engine is running take off the oil filler cap and look in and see how much oil is flowing through the filter. I thought it looked to be sufficient as far as volume.

Rosstude
06-23-2006, 01:26 PM
My vote is with #2, better than noting. When I purchased the57 Provincial last year, I changed the oil and filter first thing, and I cleaned the canister very thoroughly. When the time for an oil change rolled around, I was impressed (shocked actually) at the amount of crud captured in the filter and canister. Each oil change has shown a little less visible crud build up, but it still gets dirty. I do not know for sure about the pressure drop, never experimented with, and without. I cant see how a controlled flow through an orifice that size would affect the pressure, given the dynamics of volume, restrictions, and how pressure is affected by many factors. Seems like the flow through the filter would be like having one more rocker arm, or the difference a worn rocker shaft / arm assembly might make.
Franz toilet paper filters are novel, but depending on whom you ask they are the greatest, or the poorest filter you can have. Ill stick with Wixs, and not Charmine. I do have two Franz toilet paper filter canisters; my dad thought they were the greatest thing since sliced bread, and he is well known for keeping engines alive well past what is considered normal mileage.


Ross.
Riverside, Ca.
1957 Provincial X2
1958 Transtar
1963 Lark. Temp storage?

Dick Steinkamp
06-23-2006, 01:33 PM
If Gord votes for #2...I vote for #2 ('nuff said [^])



http://thenobot.org/images/s2d/s2d_01.jpg

starlightchamp
06-23-2006, 01:41 PM
The oil line from right lower block fitting to my 1950 Champs filter input
was trash. I bought a new one from Stude Intl. but it did not have the restrictor
like the original. I have it installed but fear a lot of oil is flowing without the restrictor
and may be starving the front bearing. No local auto stores carry a restrictor fitting.
Should I plug offf the filter or does anyone know where I can find a line with restrictor
or fitting adapter. I like keeping the filter since the car is factory configured for shows.

Dick Curtis
1950 Starlight
1963 Hawk GT

1949commander
06-23-2006, 01:45 PM
I know that all Diesel Semi Tractors as well as many industrial engines have both full flow systems and bypass systems. The full flow cannot filter out the fine carbon particles since the media required would cause a full flow filter to plug up quickly and blow the by-pass valve. So on a dual system the full flow filter catches the dirt and any metal particles and the by-pass picks up the carbon and other microscopic particles. That's one of the reasons why a Semi Tractor Diesel can go 10K+ miles between oil changes

[8D]

Restore it, don't replace it.Keep the Studebaker reproduction industry going

garyash
06-23-2006, 02:15 PM
Most decent auto parts stores do have the .060" orifices. Have them look in the rack with all of the other small brass brake/hydraulic line fittings. It will have a male thread on one end, a female thread on the other, mates with 3/16 hydraulic (brake) tube fittings. The orifice looks like this:
http://www.studegarage.com/images/orifice2.jpg

Just so I wouldn't have brass fittings sticking way out from the Champ 6 block, I put a right angle adapter in first, then the orifice, then the 3/16 steel tubing to the filter canister. I wasn't comfortable with flex hose running over the engine to the filter.

Note, however, that some of the canisters have the orifice built into them. I'm not sure how you tell if one is internal to your canister.
http://www.studegarage.com/images/oil_feed.jpg

Gary Ash
Dartmouth, MA
'48 M5
'65 Wagonaire Commander
'63 Wagonaire Standard
www.studegarage.com

DilloCrafter
06-23-2006, 07:51 PM
I haven't tried putting a bypass filter on my truck's Champion Six since buying it (haven't driven it enough to tell anyway), so I have no opinion yet. Some previous owner had removed the bypass filter and tubing already.

But I did read an article in the current issue of Classic Trucks. They explained the whole partial flow system, with diagrams, and concluded that they didn't filter enough oil to be worth adding one back if it was gone from your engine.

On the other hand, AMSOIL sells a bypass filter kit that they are quite proud of, should you want to spend over $100 for it.

http://rocketdillo.com/studebaker/misc/images/Current_Avacar.gif[/img=left] - DilloCrafter


1955 1/2 Ton Pickup
[i]The Red-Headed Amazon

garyash
06-24-2006, 02:15 PM
Lets compare opinions about partial flow filters with some calculated numbers based on the parts that are in the engine. The spur gear oil pump is capable of delivering many GALLONS per minute. I cant find exact numbers for the Champ 6 pump or Stude V-8, but most modern oil pumps (like for an SBC engine) can deliver 5-15 gallons/minute. The pump typically runs at 1/2 of engine rpms. Because they are positive displacement pumps, the flow is a function of engine rpm but NOT dependent on indicated oil pressure! This means about the same pump flow in a tight or worn engine and for all grades of oil.

To do the numbers, its necessary to understand a lot about flow of incompressible fluids (oil and water) and do some calculus and linear differential equations. Im overeducated, LOL, and do these calculations as part of my consulting business (www.castlebrookcorp.com). An excellent reference, even for basic plumbing, is Crane Technical Manual 410, Flow of Fluids Through Valves, Pipes, and Fittings. Get yours for $36 at: http://www.tp410.com/

Heres the short version, no math. The flow to the partial filter is determined by the diameter of limiting orifice (about .045-.060), the oil line diameter, the oil pressure, and the viscosity of the oil. Assuming 10W-30 oil, you can plug the 11 centistokes viscosity at 100 C into the equation to find the Reynolds number of the flow and the orifice coefficient from some graphs, and get the flow as a function of pressure. Orifice flow increases with the square root of pressure, so higher oil pressures dont boost the flow proportionately, but it does go up. So, heres a graph of calculated orifice flow at various oil pressures. It matches pretty well with what I measured using water from the garden hose at 30 psi.
http://www.studegarage.com/images/other/orifice_flow.jpg

The ability of the filter to clean up the oil is based on the fact that oil continuously recirculates. With the 6 quarts of oil in the engine flowing at several gallons per minutes out of the oil pump, some goes to the bearings, a little goes to the filter, and the rest gets dumped back into the sump once the oil pressure exceeds the relief valve setting (about 40 psi). At cruising speeds, we should have 40 psi oil pressure and the flow through the filter is about 1-1.6 quarts per minute. This is a large percentage of the oil in the sump. Typical oil filter efficiency is greater than 90% for particles 10 to 20 microns in size for one pass through the filter. There are 25.4 microns in .001 inch, so we are talking about very small particles here. Essentially all of the large particles are removed the first time into the filter.

The oil going through the filter gets dumped back in the sump, but every time it goes through the filter at least 90% of very small particles are trapped. If we look at the ability of the filter to clean up a load of small particles dumped into the sump all at once, even a partial flow filter cleans up the oil very well. For 1.6 quarts per minute flow through the filter, only 10% of the original particles are left in the sump after 10 minutes of driving. After 20 minutes, the fraction is down to .01 or 1%. Every 10 more minutes we drive reduces the particles by another factor of 10. This means that after an hour of driving, only one particle out of 1 million original particles is left in the oil that is circulating. It also means that as the engine produces more particles through wear, etc. that they are continuously filtered out.
http://www.studegarage.com/images/other/oil_clean_ratio.jpg

If you want to see the Excel spreadsheet with the math, see:
http://www.studegarage.com/images/other/oil_filter_flow2.xls
If you're really into the linear differential equations of how the filter cleans up the oil, see http://www-rohan.sdsu.edu/~jmahaffy/courses/f00/math536/dynamic/linde/linde536.htm

While the partial flow filter doesn't get the particles instantaneously, it does get them eventually. While many particles do get recircu

Roscomacaw
06-24-2006, 06:25 PM
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by gordr
Well, for what it's worth, you can put me firmly in the #2 camp. Bypass oil filters were standard equipment on all military vehicles that I'm familiar with, and I doubt the DOD would have specified filters if they weren't expected to be effective.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



sbca96 says: "Currently working at a company that deals quite a lot with the DOD,
this statement makes me chuckle."

I'm with Tom over this statement.:D I've worked for too many military-industrial giants to not have seen superfluous stuff sold to unca Sam!

Miscreant at large.

1957 Transtar 1/2ton
1960 Larkvertible V8
1958 Provincial wagon
1953 Commander coupe
1957 President 2-dr
1955 President State
1951 Champion Biz cpe
1963 Daytona project FS

StudeRich
06-24-2006, 06:49 PM
Well, for all of us "common sense" thinkers, who know what we know from experience, not a high IQ, that pretty much verifys what most of us said. You cannot dispute the FACTS !! :D[^]Very well none Gary!
Anyway; what do those kids at Classic Trucks know, anyway![xx(]:(
:) Rich.


quote:[i]
While the partial flow filter doesn't get the particles instantaneously, it does get them eventually. While many particles do get recirculated through the pump, much of the oil just gets dumped back into the sump and doesn't get to the bearings. It makes sense to me to put the filter in!
Gary Ash
Dartmouth, MA


StudeRich
Ferndale, WA

Dick Steinkamp
06-24-2006, 08:00 PM
Gary,
Quit confusing us with facts ;)



http://thenobot.org/images/s2d/s2d_01.jpg

sbca96
06-24-2006, 08:58 PM
I think that the best way to sum this up is this :

If you dont have the partial flow assembly for your car, then it is
probably not worth sourcing one to add, if you find a good deal on
one then go ahead and add it (with NEW lines).

If you have one on your car already, make sure that the lines are in
good shape, and keep it, since its not worth removing unless the lines
to it are questionable in condition (remember that heat cracks CAN
start from the inside also).

If you have one of the later full flow, then be happy you dont have to
worry about this issue at all.;)

Tom

garyash
06-24-2006, 09:07 PM
I do have a confession to make: when I put the M5 truck together and started the engine for the first time, I had neglected one small detail. I forgot to tighten the bolt on the top of the oil filter canister. That's my "experience" in knowing that a whole lot of oil goes into the filter housing - and OUT, too, when the bolt is loose. I spent days cleaning up the engine compartment!

Gary Ash
Dartmouth, MA
'48 M5
'65 Wagonaire Commander
'63 Wagonaire Standard
www.studegarage.com

N8N
06-24-2006, 09:44 PM
Been there, done that, on a '56 Golden Hawk... what a mess. Also it seems to be near impossible to get new gaskets for those lids, is there such a thing as a little tool that holds a razor blade or X-acto blade and will cut perfect circles in gasket paper? I seem to have a need for something like that on a regular basis.

nate

--
55 Commander Starlight
62 Daytona hardtop
http://home.comcast.net/~njnagel

Roscomacaw
06-24-2006, 11:42 PM
OK, were these filters a delete option on Studes or were they standard? For the couple of bucks difference (and yes, a couple of bucks went lots further in the 50s)why were they not on every Stude that left the factory? Certainly by the 50s, enough evidence was at hand to prove the value given all the testy-monials and "proof" offered here.[}:)]
I've come across enough Studes in my 33 years of playing with them that DIDN'T have filters on them or evidence that they'd ever HAD filters on them.
I'm not here to say they're a BAD thing, but this is another one of those cases where it's made to sound like you're flirting with disaster if you don't have one on your Stude.
Most of our pampered babies see only a mere FRACTION of the miles they would've seen when they were bought new and used for honest-to-gosh daily transportation - not just to the office on Fridays if the weather's right. We have better oils and fewer miles. Changing your oil at regular intervals will do more than a filter can ever hope to do.
That's OK, I'm used to being behind the ->[8]

Miscreant at large.

1957 Transtar 1/2ton
1960 Larkvertible V8
1958 Provincial wagon
1953 Commander coupe
1957 President 2-dr
1955 President State
1951 Champion Biz cpe
1963 Daytona project FS

ROADRACELARK
06-25-2006, 09:20 AM
Nate,
Don't those cartridge filters come with a lid gasket and the small flat rubber washer for under the element?[?] IIRC, the last Fram I bought had those in the box.
Dan

r1lark
06-25-2006, 10:44 AM
Well, I was determined to stay out of this thread, because I saw this as one of those 'emotional' issues with a lot of folks, similar to the Stude engine Vs Chevy engine threads. But, since I often don't listen to the sensible side of my brain, here goes<G>!

Gary has laid out some excellent information. In my job with a large utility company, I deal (among many other things) with oil cleanliness and oil filtration for large turbine-generator sets. For example, at my generating station, each main turbine/generator unit has a 15,000 gallon oil reservoir for bearing lubrication. This oil is kept clean by a bypass filtering system. Yes, just like a partial flow filter system, just a lot bigger. Running some quick numbers in my head, the ratio of total oil flow out of the main shaft driven pump to the bypass filter flow is very similar to the numbers Gary quoted for the automobile oil pump versus the partial flow filter.

Yes, bypass oil filters do work, and are very effective. As someone else noted, the filtering efficiency of a filter (absolute micron size and beta ratio is how filter capability is generally expressed) can be much better on a bypass type system than a full flow system. And as Gary noted, a properly designed bypass system will filter the total gallons thru many times in 24 hours.

So, I really believe that what we can glean from all of this discussion is that the partial flow filters ARE effective. Are they effective enough to find a partial flow system for a car that does not have one? IMHO, yes! In fact, I am doing that right now on my new '54 Champion sedan. I acquired a partial flow oil filter from a fellow member, and I am in the process of installing it right now.

Paul (my opinion, for what it's worth) Warta


Paul

Visit The Studebaker Skytop Registry website at: http://hometown.aol.com/r1skytop/myhomepage/index.html

studegary
06-25-2006, 01:52 PM
quote:Originally posted by Mr.Biggs

OK, were these filters a delete option on Studes or were they standard?

Bob/MrBiggs - They were never a "delete option." They were standard for some years and optional for other years. For examples;
1948-1949 a large capacity oil cleaner was standard,
1953 a Fram oil filter was a special equipment item, under accessories,
1961-1962 an oil filter was an accessory.
I didn't research to see when, between 1949 and 1953, the oil filter became optional equipment (an accessory).

Gary L.
1954 Commander Starliner (restomod)
1959 DeLuxe pickup (restomod)

Laemmle
06-25-2006, 03:21 PM
Nate,

Go to a good graphic arts house in your town or a large town near you...they usually carry a full supply of drafting tools artistic supplies ect..here in NYC such items are common.

N8N
06-25-2006, 06:13 PM
Dan,

I had a canister on my '62 that I believe was the factory Walker-made HD filter option (it fit right on the early '62 filler stack) and the gaskets supplied with the cartridges do not fit that lid.

ISTR but it's been a while, that the gaskets supplied *do* work with the Fram-made canisters on earlier cars.

nate

--
55 Commander Starlight
62 Daytona hardtop
http://home.comcast.net/~njnagel

53k
06-27-2006, 04:15 PM
quote:Originally posted by Mr.Biggs

The last one I did, I put steel lines on the filter.:D Some things, you can improve upon.;)

This 75K Champion engine that I recently pulled the pan off of - it had an inch deep layer of grud (Grunge-Mud)in the well of the pan! Would a filter have avoided some of that? Hard to say - not knowing the history of the car and how it was serviced. But I'd bet it would have. Of course, the type of oil used and the frequency of change could have had a bearing as well.:)

Truth is, I've got an early V8 that's been rebuilt and I'm gonna install it without a filter. We'll see how it goes....

My first new car, a '61 Cruiser did not have a filter. I drove it 65,000 trouble-free miles before trading it on my Wagonaire. In those days, if you didn't have a filter, you simply changed your oil every 1,000 miles (and you were supposed to grease them every 1,000 miles too).

Paul Johnson
'53 Commander Starliner (since 1966)
'64 Daytona Wagonaire (original owner)
'64 Daytona Convertible (2006)
Museum R-4 engine

55s
06-29-2006, 10:15 PM
I'm afraid I also put on a close but incorrect gasket on my 55 Commander. Only one quart of oil makes a lot of mess.

Paul R