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kmul221
06-20-2006, 08:20 PM
The 289 in my 63 GT is toast ! I'm not a novice & could see where it needs everything totaling about $3-4000 spent to rescue it.The question being; I have a chance to get a crate 259 a lot cheaper.Did the GT's ever have a 259 ? I've seen one with a 6cyl.documented engine
I believe it was built for export.Would it be a grevious sin to use the 259 or were they not available for GT's ?
I'm just a poor pensioner so $$$ is a factor,either that or I go the "belly button" route unless I can find a good used 289 close to home which is Hamilton Ontario Canada----This car is the worst Studebaker I have ever owned in regards to every-thing needed 2=B overhauled.Im in too deep to give up now so I have to keep throwing $$$ at it.It's a California black plate car so the body is good but that's about the only thing !!

mbstude
06-20-2006, 08:28 PM
I'd say go for it. No GT's that I know of came with a 259, but who cares! A Stude engine is a Stude engine. And as long as they're being driven, it doesn't really matter (to me, anyways)! I wouldn't get all over you because you had a 259 or think less of your car. Hey, just restamp the #'s. The 259's 'wind up' quicker than the 289's, so if I had a choise, my Lark would be a 259 with an OD tranny. Hawks with 289's are nice, but it doesn't really matter, unless this is going to be a show-only car. 259's sound just as good as a 289 and you can still 'hop them up'.
There were a few 6 cylinder models, but they all went oversees, although a few have made it back over here. There was one in North Carolina a while back.

Matthew Burnette, the 16 year old Stude nut.
South Georgia Chapter Newsletter Editor
63 Daytona HT (project)
51 2R16 dump truck (yes, I won the raffle)
52 Commander Starliner (basket case)(will trade for another Stude <g>)
MANY more Studes in the family and a few parts cars.
Click my name and check out "Links".

JDP
06-20-2006, 08:35 PM
The sixes did not all go for export, a few were sold here by a South Bend dealer for one.

Studebaker On The Net http://stude.com
Studebaker News Group
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.autos.studebaker
64 Daytona HT
64 R2 4 speed Challenger
63 R2 4 speed GT Black
63 GT Hawk
62 Daytona HT

Guido
06-20-2006, 08:39 PM
Kim Kidwell in Deltaville, Va. has a '63 GT with the OHV six and 3 on the tree. He just finished up a Golden Hawk so I think the GT may be for sale.

Guido Salvage - "Where rust is beautiful"

1946 M-16 fire truck
1948 M-16 grain truck
1949 2R16A grain truck
1949 2R17A fire truck
1955 E-38 grain truck
1957 3E-40 flatbed
1961 6E-28 grain truck
1962 7E-13D 4x4 rack truck
1962 Champ pickup
1962 GT Hawk 4 speed
1964 Avanti R2 4 speed
1964 Cruiser
And various other "treasures"

mbstude
06-20-2006, 08:39 PM
Hmm, learn sumthin' every day! Who woulda thought...

Matthew Burnette, the 16 year old Stude nut.
South Georgia Chapter Newsletter Editor
63 Daytona HT (project)
51 2R16 dump truck (yes, I won the raffle)
52 Commander Starliner (basket case)(will trade for another Stude <g>)
MANY more Studes in the family and a few parts cars.
Click my name and check out "Links".

gordr
06-21-2006, 01:55 AM
quote:Originally posted by kmul221


The 289 in my 63 GT is toast ! I'm not a novice & could see where it needs everything totaling about $3-4000 spent to rescue it.The question being; I have a chance to get a crate 259 a lot cheaper.Did the GT's ever have a 259 ? I've seen one with a 6cyl.documented engine
I believe it was built for export.Would it be a grevious sin to use the 259 or were they not available for GT's ?
I'm just a poor pensioner so $$$ is a factor,either that or I go the "belly button" route unless I can find a good used 289 close to home which is Hamilton Ontario Canada----This car is the worst Studebaker I have ever owned in regards to every-thing needed 2=B overhauled.Im in too deep to give up now so I have to keep throwing $$$ at it.It's a California black plate car so the body is good but that's about the only thing !!


If you know that you will be getting a good 259 at a good price, go right ahead and do it. The one thing that worries me a bit is: what is the history of that "crate" 259? In the hotrod world, a crate motor is usually taken to be a brand new product, or at least a brand new rebuild shipped by a company that does a national business. If this "crate" motor comes from a reputable Studebaker vendor, I'm sure it's safe to use it. OTOH, if the "crate motor" is something that was purportedly New Old Stock, or an older rebuild, never installed, you may have issues with dried and shrunken seals or gaskets, and cylinders and bearings may have developed rust due to the assembly lube having dried out.

One of our SDC members recently sold a New Old Stock R3 engine that he had on loan to the Studebaker National Museum for years. That engine is to be torn down and minutely inspected before it gets fired. I'd recommend that as good practice for anybody who plans to put a long-stored "new" engine into service. It would be truly heartbreaking to go to all the trouble of installing the new engine, only to have it screech to a stop with a spun bearing after running a few minutes.

Barring that caveat, a 259 versus a 289 would do little to diminish the value of any GT Hawk, excepting a "package car." At least, that's my opinion. Most onlookers would never spot the difference. Either engine has completely adequate power for normal driving and highway cruising.

Gord Richmond, within Weasel range of the Alberta Badlands

pete
06-21-2006, 05:42 AM
yep go for the 259 after all the 289 was just bored out from the 259

Dick Steinkamp
06-21-2006, 10:40 AM
quote:Originally posted by pete

yep go for the 259 after all the 289 was just bored out from the 259


Actually, a 289 is a STROKED 259...they both share the same 3 9/16" bore. A 259 has a 3 1/4" stroke and a 289 has a 3 5/8" stroke.



http://thenobot.org/images/s2d/s2d_01.jpg

mbstude
06-21-2006, 04:31 PM
BTW, I've seen worse. There was once a 57 Golden Hawk with a 259. Not that's just wrong. But a GT Hawk, not so much...

Matthew Burnette, the 16 year old Stude nut.
South Georgia Chapter Newsletter Editor
63 Daytona HT (project)
51 2R16 dump truck (yes, I won the raffle)
52 Commander Starliner (basket case)(will trade for another Stude <g>)
MANY more Studes in the family and a few parts cars.
Click my name and check out "Links".

studegary
06-21-2006, 06:11 PM
Some 1962-1964 Gran Turismo Hawks were built with 259 ci engines. All years of Hawks had some made with 259s and in the case of 1959 Hawks, all V-8s were 259s.

Gary L.
1954 Commander Starliner (restomod)
1959 DeLuxe pickup (restomod)

mbstude
06-21-2006, 06:24 PM
I've even seen a few 59's wih factory 289's. I guess if you slipped the dealer a little extra $$$ you might could have gotten a 289... I have seen 59 trucks with 289's too.

Matthew Burnette, the 16 year old Stude nut.
South Georgia Chapter Newsletter Editor
63 Daytona HT (project)
51 2R16 dump truck (yes, I won the raffle)
52 Commander Starliner (basket case)(will trade for another Stude <g>)
MANY more Studes in the family and a few parts cars.
Click my name and check out "Links".

studegary
06-21-2006, 10:26 PM
quote:Originally posted by mbstude

I've even seen a few 59's wih factory 289's. I guess if you slipped the dealer a little extra $$$ you might could have gotten a 289... I have seen 59 trucks with 289's too.

Matthew Burnette, the 16 year old Stude nut.


I think that I would have to see a factory build sheet to be convinced that a 1959 car had a 289 originally installed in it. You say that you have seen a few. Were any of them documented and if so, how? 289 V8s in '59 trucks is a different story. That was offered by Studebaker. That is what made it so easy to re-introduce the 289 into the Hawk in 1960.

Gary L.
1954 Commander Starliner (restomod)
1959 DeLuxe pickup (restomod)

rockne10
06-21-2006, 10:47 PM
Fred Fox's article March '06 Turning Wheels indicates 289 was available in Police Pursuit Marshals in 1957 (at least two were produced) and in 1958 Marshals; none in 1959 and available again in mid 1960. But the Marshals were not sold to the public. As Gary indicated, the 289 was available in 1959 Trucks.

PackardV8
06-22-2006, 12:33 PM
FWIW, our Studes are getting old and so are our memories. GTs have been through so many owners now, I've seen everything including the McKinnon 283" 'Studebaker V8' represented as 'came that way from the factory' I'd want to see the documentation on GT Hawks being factory delivered in the US with 259" engines.

One other minor point of contention which perennially comes up in V8 discussions - The 259" will not "wind up quicker" than a 289" in the same car with the same gearing. The 289" in equal OEM condition and equipment makes 20 to 30 more horsepower and lb/ft of torque and thus will always be slightly quicker and faster than an equivalent 259". There is no replacement for displacement.

Subjectively, the 259", with its 3.25" stroke, may feel smoother because it has a lower piston speed and thus a greater theoretical maximum rpm than the 3.625" stroke 289". The 1955 224" V8 has a 2.8125" stroke and thus feels smoother than either the 259" or the 289", but as the Brits would say, it is a "buzzing little anvil" and makes no real horsepower as it smoothly winds up. In any of the five Studebaker V8 engine displacements, the valves float long before theoretical maximum piston speed is reached.

thnx, jv.

Roscomacaw
06-22-2006, 01:01 PM
Jack, have you ever driven a 224 for any amount of time?[:I]

Miscreant at large.

1957 Transtar 1/2ton
1960 Larkvertible V8
1958 Provincial wagon
1953 Commander coupe
1957 President 2-dr
1955 President State
1951 Champion Biz cpe
1963 Daytona project FS

Dick Steinkamp
06-22-2006, 02:08 PM
quote:Originally posted by PackardV8
In any of the five Studebaker V8 engine displacements, the valves float long before theoretical maximum piston speed is reached.



What is the "theoretical maximum piston speed" for each of the Stude V8's? How is it computed?




http://thenobot.org/images/s2d/s2d_01.jpg

PackardV8
06-22-2006, 02:11 PM
Hi, Mr. Biggs, and thank you for the fraternal courtesy in your reply.

Yes, I have owned and driven Studebaker V8s for 45 years. The first 224" V8 was in a 1955 coupe and Studebaker rated it at 140hp/202 torque because that was all it made. Consistently was outrun on the strip by the 259" cars.

Have owned my 1955 224" V8 for 25 years and 50,000 miles. No way is it anywhere as strong as the 259" and 289" trucks I owned before I bought this one.

As stated above, the 224" is smooth and durable, just doesn't make as much hp as the larger engines.

thnx, jv.

thnx, jv.

PackardV8

studegary
06-22-2006, 11:20 PM
quote:Originally posted by PackardV8

FWIW, our Studes are getting old and so are our memories. GTs have been through so many owners now, I've seen everything including the McKinnon 283" 'Studebaker V8' represented as 'came that way from the factory' I'd want to see the documentation on GT Hawks being factory delivered in the US with 259" engines.




I stated that Gran Turismo Hawks were made with 259 cubic inch V-8s. I did NOT state that they were made for US delivery. The person asking about them is from Canada. I believe that all of the six cylinder and 259 V-8 Gran Turismos were built for sale outside of the US, but they were built. And, yes, I have owned and driven Studebakers for more years than what you state you have, but that doesn't make either of us an expert. No one person knows all there is to know about Studebakers and I believe that we are all still learning.

Gary L.
1954 Commander Starliner (restomod)
1959 DeLuxe pickup (restomod)

PackardV8
06-23-2006, 01:20 AM
Hi, studegary,

Agree completely no one knows all the Studebaker arcane lore and production data. We Stude owners are probably no worse than any other car group about stating urban legends as fact, but it happens on this list every day. As a humble suggestion, we all add to the greater knowlege base when we give as references the sources of our assertions.


Hi, Dick,

Am traveling at present, so am going to ask for a week to find the actual SAE paper reference number, but as I remember reading publications from back in the days when the Studebaker V8 was being designed, automotive engineers generally used the figure of 4500 feet-per-minute of piston travel as the practical maximum sustainable speed for production engines. On a Studebaker 289", that equates to about 7,500 rpms. Interestingly, over the years, most guys who raced modified Studes found the hard way that was just about the RPMs where the OEM connecting rod big end began to deform and lead to bearing failure and thrown rods.

More recently, the following maximum piston speeds are from the book, [u]Performance Tuning in Theory and Practice</u>, by A.G.Bell.
Stock Motor - 3,500 fpm (cast crank, stock rods,cast
piston)
Heavy Duty Motor - 4,000 fpm forged crank, peened rods w/ good
bolts, forged pistons)
Drag Racing Motor - 5,000 fpm (forged crank, alum rods, lighweight
pistons)

The formula for calculating piston speed is: STROKE times RPM divided by 6.

Hope this helps.

thnx, jv.

PackardV8