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BRUCESTUDE
06-05-2006, 11:44 PM
The fuel pump on my '64 Daytona HT (259-4spd!) is beginning to leak oil. It seemed like this happened on a '57 Prez. I once owned, but a new pump solved that. This pump is only a couple years old, and has about 5000 mi. on it. Why do these things leak, and has anyone else had this problem???????

5859
06-06-2006, 03:29 AM
Hi, I have had that same problem on my 58 commander 259, I purchased a NOS fuel pump, big mistake, from Newman and Altman, now Sasco, It pumped fuel, but the diaphram was extremely rigid, you could barely move the lever by hand before it was installed, anyway it leaked oil like a sive from the time I put it on, I replaced it with a remanufactured pump, that the lever felt normal to move by hand, and the leak was gone. I dont know if it is a manufacturing defect or what, that causes them to leak.

Mike
06-06-2006, 04:11 AM
I can think of two potential oil leaks at the fuel pump:
The pump body can be worn at the pivot pin. On the Carter pumps I've seen, The hole is closed, and the pin kept in the housing, by a soft aluminum plug that is pressed into the pump body, and "staked". It doesn't seal well. I guess it would be possible to put bushings in the pump body, if it's worn out. I haven't done that. I have cut a few threads in the hole and replaced the soft plug with a shortened set screw, held in place with locktite.
If oil gets to the back side of the diaphragm, it will come out the vent on the pump. There is a seal on the "stem" between the diaphragm and the operating arm; that's supposed to prevent this, and hold boost referance pressure on supercharged cars. A new seal comes in the rebuild kits from Parts Cellar:
http://www.then-now.com/The_Cellar/fuelpump-4.htm .
Mike M.

curt
06-06-2006, 08:13 AM
I think this was a problem of the times. Those seals will leak. My 1948 Kaiser did a great job of oil leak at the fuel pump as did my 1955 Studebaker. I have an O'Riley pump on the Studebaker,it does not leak, I think it is a matter of time, the pump seals just are not the greatest on these 1950 era pump. That's my opinion.

BRUCESTUDE
06-06-2006, 11:47 AM
Thanks, guys! I'll look into a rebuild kit, or a new pump, after all it's only money!!!

ROADRACELARK
06-06-2006, 06:03 PM
The new fuel pumps sold under the trade name "Master" that are marketed by several FLAPS, is actually manufactered by Air-Tex. It is of the AC design. I installed several of these brand pumps over the course of a year and had to replace EVERY one because of the same oil leak from the vent hole. The store gave me the toll-free Tech-Hot-Line #. I called, explained the problem I had, he said the motor had too much blow-by. I said no because this is a un-sealed crankcase system with a PCV valve and 2 breather caps = NO PRESSURE. He said their pump diaphram shaft seals were tested to 4lbs. and in their eyes, that should be enough. Those pumps carried a lifetime warranty from the FLAPS and I returned every one. Replaced them with a Carter (Federal Mougal now), same AC design, same mounting gasket. Have not had a single failure. Go figure.
[?][xx(]

N8N
06-06-2006, 06:28 PM
I personally prefer to use the original pumps if staying with the mechanical pump; if nothing else the original pumps have the fuel filter *before* the pump section, not after like an inline filter. The new rebuild kits work fine. I just bought a NOS pump for my '55 a while back and it too had an old, hard diaphragm but I just kitted it and everything is fine. Actually will probably be for sale soon if anyone is interested (swapping to an R1 engine.)

nate

--
55 Commander Starlight
62 Daytona hardtop
http://home.comcast.net/~njnagel

ROADRACELARK
06-06-2006, 06:41 PM
Nate,
Didn't Studebaker addopt the inline filter in mid-62 (about the same time the full-flow block showed up)? Or was the glass bowl still on the fuel pump and the inline just an accessory item? I can't remember:(
Dan

55s
06-06-2006, 09:12 PM
New gasolines attack neoprene rubber used in old fuel lines and fuel pump diaphragms including any neoprene O-rings.

The answer (from a tractor web site) is nitrile rubber, which can be purchased in sheets in different thicknesses.

Note that new electrical fuel pumps throw gasoline, as opposed to using pumping it.

Paul R

N8N
06-06-2006, 09:50 PM
I know more about these fuel pumps than I care to... due to having to deal with the transplanted engine in my '55 coupe. I don't have all my reference material in front of me at the moment so I will have to handwave a little bit. OK here goes...

when the fuel pump was moved down onto the timing cover, the pump used was a Carter design with a glass bowl and "stone" filter. There were two different model numbers of pump used but as best I can tell they are interchangeable, reading between the lines, it appears that the original design had some kind of shortcoming and it was simply superceded. The later of the two parts is what I was running on my '55 before I went completely nuts and started prepping an R1 motor.

At some point in the early '60s, the later style Carter fuel pump was introduced, which is very similar to the one I've described above. The main difference seems to be that it uses a metal bowl with a pleated paper filter, similar to (maybe the same as?) the one used inside the glass bowl R1/R2 inline fuel filter. Also the outlet fitting is physically lower on this pump, I think it was actually moved down to the valve body? don't recall, but it was definitely about 1/4" or more lower. The reason that this is important is that the new pump WILL NOT CLEAR the engine mount bracket on the frame of a C-K body car. The old, glass bowl style fuel filter was continued for a year or two for C-K bodies ONLY while the Lark series got the new, metal bowl fuel pump. At some point, I want to say 1963? the engine mount bracket acquired a little "notch" to clear the new style fuel pump and it was used on all cars, although this is a bit confusing, I have only figured this out from looking at different cars. The parts book does not list a new part number for the engine mount bracket but they definitely changed; I can only infer that this happened at the same time that the metal bowl fuel pump was universally adopted.

In 1963 with the introduction of the JT and JTS engines, larger yet fuel pumps were adopted - and these are the ONLY factory fuel pumps that do not have an integral filter. These pumps required a special engine mount bracket for GT Hawks, with an even larger clearance dimple in them than described above. This mount does have a separate part number and was used on JT/JTS cars only. It appears to have been made by taking a standard engine mount bracket and whacking the crap out of it with a BFH over a forming buck (seriously!) Also the mounting flange of the JT/JTS fuel pumps is thicker than that of the pumps used on the standard V-8 necessitating longer mounting bolts.

Due to an "incident" with one of the new Airtex pumps where the fuel pump tried to set my car on fire - basically, I had access to a new production pump that was actually intended for a 57-58 supercharged car and I borrowed it to get my car running, and it pumped a large quantity of engine oil onto my driver's side exhaust while "getting on it" going up a long upgrade - and the lack of an integral fuel filter, I have become something of a fuel pump snob. I much prefer to use an original pump as I have not had this issue with them, and the integral filter is nice as it keeps the check valves from getting fouled with rust flakes that seem to be present in any Studebaker's gas tank. I would say that any original fuel pump that has not been rebuilt in the last few years is probably due for a new kit, but to the best of my knowledge the new production fuel pump kits that you can get from a vendor are made with the modern rubber that will not fail when used with modern gasoline. They do not come with check valves, but I believe that if this is an issue, you could order a fuel pump kit for, say, a '63 Avanti and take the check valves from that, as the valves appear to be identical. Alternately, if you could get a sheet of nitrile the right thickness and had a set of appropriately sized gasket punches, it appears fairly trivial to make your own, although you'd have to be careful not to damage the little metal "mushrooms." I did

ROADRACELARK
06-06-2006, 10:20 PM
Nate,
WOW!:D Great explanation! Thanks. The metal filter up top in front of the carb. is the one I mentioned. I thought it might be an accessory item. Do you get the fuel pump kits from SDC vendors, or outside vendors? I'll leave you alone now... Thanks!
Dan

N8N
06-06-2006, 10:27 PM
I used to get the kits from Ted Harbit, so I would assume that Fairborn Studebaker now carries them. I have been told that the ones sold by vendors come from these guys:

http://www.then-now.com/The_Cellar/cellar.htm

who seem like a quality outfit, but I usually just order from the vendors because a) I usually need something else as well and b) I certainly want to keep them in business!

BTW if the integral filter element on the metal bowl pump is the same as the JT/JTS inline filter's element, it's a Fram CG6. If someone cares to try this at home and let me know if it works I'll add that number to my web site, otherwise I will eventually have to break down and compare them myself :)

nate

--
55 Commander Starlight
62 Daytona hardtop
http://home.comcast.net/~njnagel

N8N
06-06-2006, 10:57 PM
forgot to mention, the basic points that I was trying to make (didn't my high school English teacher always tell me to close with a good summary?)

- a new fuel pump kit for an original pump is cheaper than buying a new production pump, and at least in my mind there's other compelling reasons to stick with the original, namely the presence of the integral filter, and the oil leakage issues with the new pumps. Also you get to keep the originality of your car, if that is important to you. Only downside is that you get to spend an extra hour or so cleaning all the gunk off your old pump and fighting with that little aluminum plug.

- some people aren't aware that the "metal bowl" fuel pumps still have an integral filter - the previous owner of my car sure wasn't. Car was running like crap when I first got it on the road, and the problem was that the bowl was literally half full of rust and gunk and the little pleated paper element was all clogged up.

There is a good use for the new production pumps though, you can throw one in your trunk and be assured that it will work on most any 55-64 Stude V-8, makes a good spare pump for a road trip kit and you can also help a fellow Stude driver out if necessary, which you can't be 100% assured of being able to do with the metal bowl units.

I should probably go back and edit my long post with specific year breaks and part numbers when I get back to my bookshelf, in case anyone searches this out in the future...

nate

--
55 Commander Starlight
62 Daytona hardtop
http://home.comcast.net/~njnagel

DilloCrafter
06-06-2006, 11:26 PM
quote:Originally posted by 55s

New gasolines attack neoprene rubber used in old fuel lines and fuel pump diaphragms including any neoprene O-rings.

The answer (from a tractor web site) is nitrile rubber, which can be purchased in sheets in different thicknesses.

Note that new electrical fuel pumps throw gasoline, as opposed to using pumping it.

Your source of info may be right about that, but I just want to pass along something I read, too. Apparently, "Neoprene" is used as a catch-all term for different kinds of synthetic rubber. I even have read that Buna-N, which I believe is the same as nitrile, has been called "Buna-N neoprene".

For what it's worth, I bought a rebuilt Studebaker fuel pump for my '55 Champion six from an eBay seller who claims it has neoprene diaphragms, and that they are the right material for today's fuels. I have not installed it yet, so I can't yet comment on whether it will leak oil. Here's his eBay store, so you can read about what he offers:
http://stores.ebay.com/Ageless-Auto-Parts

http://rocketdillo.com/studebaker/misc/images/Current_Avacar.gif[/img=left] - DilloCrafter


1955 1/2 Ton Pickup
[i]The Red-Headed Amazon

tomnoller
06-07-2006, 11:50 AM
BTW, Nate, GREAT website! Simple and full of good stuff. Thanks!

N8N
06-07-2006, 07:06 PM
Thanks Tom, I just figured if I thought the info was worth writing down in a notebook it was worth typing up... and it's so easy now to post stuff on a personal web space and convenient too, heck I probably use it as much as anyone. no need to wonder where my notes are if I'm away from home and need to look something up. I do have to admit to plaigarizing a bit off the newsgroup but I try to verify as many interchanges as I can.

nate

--
55 Commander Starlight
62 Daytona hardtop
http://home.comcast.net/~njnagel