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Eman
06-03-2006, 06:44 PM
*Deep sigh*

Okay, I'm almost through rewiring Stella for now. I've put in a new turn signal harness, main chassis harness, taillight harness, headlight cables, taillight pigtails, and horn relay. Whew!

Before I started any of this, the turn signals did not work inside or out, nor did the brake lights. Well after at least getting everything connected with the new stuff, those items STILL don't work. I've replaced the stoplight switch and I've replaced the flasher unit. I've also checked the bulbs.

Any ideas what to check next? And this may sound stupid, but both of those should work with just the key in the ignition, right?


1951 Commander Starlight Coupe (aka "Stella")
www.bulletshots.net
www.bulletshots.net/blog
www.alabamastudes.com

JDP
06-03-2006, 06:49 PM
Key in, and turned on to Acc, or Ign.

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64 Daytona HT
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63 R2 4 speed GT Black
63 R2 4 speed GT White
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63 Avanti
62 Daytona HT
53 Coupe

Eman
06-03-2006, 08:30 PM
The turn signals are working now. It helps if you put the new flasher unit back after you've put the dash back together.

And I hadn't even been drinking anything!



1951 Commander Starlight Coupe (aka "Stella")
www.bulletshots.net
www.bulletshots.net/blog
www.alabamastudes.com

Eman
06-03-2006, 08:31 PM
At least I've been doing that right.




quote:Originally posted by JDP

Key in, and turned on to Acc, or Ign.

Studebaker On The Net http://stude.com
Studebaker News Group
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.autos.studebaker
64 Daytona HT
64 R2 4 speed Challenger
63 R2 4 speed GT Black
63 R2 4 speed GT White
63 GT Hawk
63 Avanti
62 Daytona HT
53 Coupe





1951 Commander Starlight Coupe (aka "Stella")
www.bulletshots.net
www.bulletshots.net/blog
www.alabamastudes.com

rockne10
06-03-2006, 09:23 PM
Brake lights should always work whether the key's in the ignition or not. Turn signals only work with the key on. Brake light circuit does go through the turn signal switch so the current to the left or right brake light is shunted when the signal switch is activated.

Eman
06-03-2006, 09:59 PM
So what does that mean I should look for if the turn signals work, but the brake lights don't?



quote:Originally posted by rockne10

Brake lights should always work whether the key's in the ignition or not. Turn signals only work with the key on. Brake light circuit does go through the turn signal switch so the current to the left or right brake light is shunted when the signal switch is activated.


1951 Commander Starlight Coupe (aka "Stella")
www.bulletshots.net
www.bulletshots.net/blog
www.alabamastudes.com

rockne10
06-04-2006, 10:55 AM
First thing I'd do is unplug both wires at the brake light switch and run a jumper wire across the wires. If the brakes light up that will tell you you either have a bad brake switch or something in the brake line is preventing brake fluid from pressurizing it. That's probably not the case but it's the first and easiest test.

You said you replaced the turn signal harness through the steering column to the switch? If everthing is connected correctly I would suspect the turn signal switch itself.

Mike
06-04-2006, 01:37 PM
There are wiring diagrams at:
https://www.studebakerparts.com/studebakerparts/parts/html/pages/wirediagrams.html . I don't think turn signals are included with the '51 drawing; but they are shown for '50 and '52.
I'd check the brake light switch first. Do you have 6V to it?
Mike M.

Roscomacaw
06-04-2006, 02:11 PM
The brake lite circuit is hot whenever there's a battery in place- period. The turn signal circuit is only hot with the key switch in ignition or ACC.

Eman, you said you installed a new TS harness as well. There should be an inline fuse holder on one wire that goes from the flasher to the ignition switch. Dumb question: is there a fuse in it??? Sorry - I had to ask.[:I] If not, it takes a 14amp glass-bodied fuse.
:)

Miscreant at large.

1957 Transtar 1/2ton
1960 Larkvertible V8
1958 Provincial wagon
1953 Commander coupe
1957 President 2-dr
1955 President State
1951 Champion Biz cpe
1963 Daytona project FS

rockne10
06-04-2006, 04:54 PM
We failed to ask, is this a factory original seven wire turn signal through the column, an after market seven wire external to the column or a five wire external to the column?

Eman
06-04-2006, 08:56 PM
I bought all of this from Stephen Allen's, but I forget who his vendor is for the harnesses.

The front turn signal harness doesn't literally go through the steering column.

Engine side:
Three wires come from below (left rear, right rear, stoplight) and connect to it with a three wire connector. Then two are wrapped to the horn relay area where one goes to the front left and the other branches across the air deflector to the front right.

Dash side:
Five come in and go into the five-wire connector, with two branching back out to go to the turn signals on the gauge. I replaced one fuse (I don't think the old one was bad) I saw under the dash with another 14amp.

The turn signals work and the stoplight switch is getting "juice" (although I don't know how much they're getting) but the brake lights just aren't working. They work with the turns and just with the lights on, but not while braking.

I think that covers everybody's comments. Thanks for helping me try to troubleshoot this. Commander51 has been giving some tech support as well.



1951 Commander Starlight Coupe (aka "Stella")
www.bulletshots.net
www.bulletshots.net/blog
www.alabamastudes.com

Roscomacaw
06-04-2006, 09:50 PM
Is this an original TS switch you're working with???

Miscreant at large.

1957 Transtar 1/2ton
1960 Larkvertible V8
1958 Provincial wagon
1953 Commander coupe
1957 President 2-dr
1955 President State
1951 Champion Biz cpe
1963 Daytona project FS

Eman
06-05-2006, 12:12 AM
TS harness... Not the original. New replacement.
Actual TS switch that you flip with your hand...Yes.

The new, front TS harness comes in through the firewall and plugs into the 5-wire connector. However, the wires leading out the other side of that connector are original.

Maybe I should grab a drink.[B)]


quote:Originally posted by Mr.Biggs

Is this an original TS switch you're working with???




1951 Commander Starlight Coupe (aka "Stella")
www.bulletshots.net
www.bulletshots.net/blog
www.alabamastudes.com

Roscomacaw
06-05-2006, 01:09 PM
Eric, I know this is labelled as a '52 diagram but as far as the TS system goes, this should be identical to '51. They both used the exact same TS switch.

https://www.studebakerparts.com/studebakerparts/parts/html/images/52acc-wire.jpg

See where the wire from the brake lite Sw. goes to the TS sw.? THAT power that comes THRU the BL Sw. (when the brake pedal's pushed) goes into the TS Sw. assy and IF that TS Sw. is in it's neutral position, the contacts therein are aligned so that the power from the brake lite Sw. goes thru two contacts and lites up both brake lite filaments in the bulbs.
Whenever the TS lever is actuated to the up (right) or down (left) position, ONE of those two contacts that lead to the brake lite filaments is disconnected from the BL Sw. power and fed power from the flasher instead. This means that the intermittent power from the flasher will cause the appropriate bulb to blink while the other bulb will glow so long as it gets power from the BL Sw - assuming you're holding the brake pedal down.[:I]
Flip the TS lever the other way and the situation is reversed. Put the lever back to neutral and things revert to where only the BL Sw can lite the brake lite filaments in the bulbs.

IF you've got the factory TS switch (it mounts into a rectangular slot on the steering column) and IF you've got the wire from the BL sw connected to the proper wire going INTO the TS switch, you should have brake lites on both sides when the TS sw is in neutral (centered) or on one side when the switch is one way or the other.
Assuming it's a factory switch - assuming it's wired correctly - if you don't have brake lites, you've got a bad TS switch.:(

Miscreant at large.

1957 Transtar 1/2ton
1960 Larkvertible V8
1958 Provincial wagon
1953 Commander coupe
1957 President 2-dr
1955 President State
1951 Champion Biz cpe
1963 Daytona project FS

rockne10
06-05-2006, 03:00 PM
"The front turn signal harness doesn't literally go through the steering column."

If the harness is running up the outside of the column, I suspect an aftermarket switch.

Eman
06-05-2006, 10:34 PM
The new, front turn signal harness comes in through the firewall (from the directional signals and stoplight switch) and into the 5-wire connector. From there, those wires are original and they proceed into the steering column. Only two other wires are coming out of the steering column and one goes to the back of the flasher unit and the other goes to the headlight switch.

I hope that helps clarify things. I think we were getting our wires crossed.[:p]



1951 Commander Starlight Coupe (aka "Stella")
www.bulletshots.net
www.bulletshots.net/blog
www.alabamastudes.com

Eman
06-06-2006, 11:32 PM
Update on testing/troubleshooting...

Okay, I found the hot lead on the two wires leading to the stoplight switch. The one that's always hot is red. I attached it to one terminal on the stoplight switch and probed the other terminal when my wife pressed the brake pedal. The terminal I probed got juice, so the stoplight switch is okay. So I connected the red wire with white tracer to the other terminal on the stoplight switch and moved forward.

I disconnected the red & white wire from the 3-wire connector on the engine side of the firewall. Probing there when pressing the brake pedal also showed juice. So I connected it back up.

Lastly, I pulled the red & white wire out of the 5-wire connector under the dash. When pressing the brake pedal, it also showed it was getting juice. Although the colors are gone from the original wires leaving the other side of that 5-wire connector, I think the ones I plugged into it are correct. I only say this because the turn signals and taillights work. I swapped two of them out which caused one turn signal to go out... So it has to be right.

Does this mean something is bad in the steering column? Or is something not grounded properly?



1951 Commander Starlight Coupe (aka "Stella")
www.bulletshots.net
www.bulletshots.net/blog
www.alabamastudes.com

Roscomacaw
06-06-2006, 11:59 PM
You're learning how to troubleshoot! That's good. Now let's make sure we're on the same page here. When you say "taillights", you mean the ones that come on when you pull out the headlight switch??? Cause if that's the case, you need to just forget about them being any indicator of what's right or wrong with the turn signal system. The taillights have nothing to do with and consequently don't have circuits thru the TS switch.;)

Miscreant at large.

1957 Transtar 1/2ton
1960 Larkvertible V8
1958 Provincial wagon
1953 Commander coupe
1957 President 2-dr
1955 President State
1951 Champion Biz cpe
1963 Daytona project FS

Eman
06-07-2006, 08:33 AM
From the wiring diagram, it looks like they go through the turn signal switch.
http://www.bulletshots.net/misc/stoplightWiring1.jpg

From another friend's suggestion, I will try and see (at every connector point) if the green/white and brown/white wires carry the current back out to the rear lights (starting from the turn signal switch itself).

Another question is how do you distinguish between incorrect wiring and a faulty ground?



1951 Commander Starlight Coupe (aka "Stella")
www.bulletshots.net
www.bulletshots.net/blog
www.alabamastudes.com

N8N
06-07-2006, 10:53 AM
is it possible you got your front and rear wires crossed? Are maybe the front lights coming on when you press on the brake pedal?

just a thought,

nate

--
55 Commander Starlight
62 Daytona hardtop
http://home.comcast.net/~njnagel

Roscomacaw
06-07-2006, 11:52 AM
Eric writes: "From another friend's suggestion, I will try and see (at every connector point) if the green/white and brown/white wires carry the current back out to the rear lights (starting from the turn signal switch itself).

Another question is how do you distinguish between incorrect wiring and a faulty ground?"

The following thru of the power to the aforementioned wires is the next logical step. Of course, you've stated that all the color is gone from the switch's wires. That being the case, you need to first identify these old wires and tag them for future reference. Do you know how to use the ohmmeter part of your meter? If so, I can walk you thru the deciphering of those unmarked wires.:D

As to the bad ground - you work your way out to the light fixture in question. If you've got power at the wire at the fixture, good. Then you check for power on the little contact tit in the base of the socket... got it there, good. Assuming you know the bulb is good (you could eyeball it for a broken filament OR use the ohmmeter to read thru it), you place it in the socket and it doesn't light or lites poorly (dimly), bad ground. Double-check this by using the ohmmeter to try and read from the rim of the bulb socket to a known, good ground (say a place on the frame, where you've scraped thru the rust to good metal.)

If you don't have a reading or it's above One Ohm, you need to remove the lite body and clean WELL, where it fastens (screws or bolts)to the body. sand away any rust where the bolt heads seat when tight and then daub everything with vaseline before reassembling (excellent corrsion inhibitor)

ALL that said, the fact that you've GOT flashing lites and taillights at the rear means you don't have a bad ground problem.:)



Miscreant at large.

1957 Transtar 1/2ton
1960 Larkvertible V8
1958 Provincial wagon
1953 Commander coupe
1957 President 2-dr
1955 President State
1951 Champion Biz cpe
1963 Daytona project FS

N8N
06-07-2006, 04:22 PM
just to clarify, in usual Studebaker usage, white with a green tracer is for the front, green with a white tracer is for the rear. similarly for brown. green = right, usually.

HTH

nate

--
55 Commander Starlight
62 Daytona hardtop
http://home.comcast.net/~njnagel

Eman
06-07-2006, 06:49 PM
I'll go back and double check anything, just to make sure. I'd love for it to just be my goof somewhere. Thanks for the advice/instruction guys.



1951 Commander Starlight Coupe (aka "Stella")
www.bulletshots.net
www.bulletshots.net/blog
www.alabamastudes.com

Eman
06-07-2006, 09:35 PM
And there you go...

I knew which wires were for the front and rear lights, but I had them reversed going into the 5-wire connector. I thought I had switched them once before to make sure, but I guess I didn't switch the right ones. Here's two shots of both sides of the connector:
http://www.bulletshots.net/myStude/wiring/images/IMG_0402.jpg
http://www.bulletshots.net/myStude/wiring/images/IMG_0403.jpg

More shots of my wiring before and after are found here:
http://www.bulletshots.net/myStude/wiring/
As you can see, some wires will still need to be replaced and I still need to tidy up the harnesses, but the hardest part, I hope, is now done.

Thanks again for all the help. Sorry it turned out to be something so "simple."



1951 Commander Starlight Coupe (aka "Stella")
www.bulletshots.net
www.bulletshots.net/blog
www.alabamastudes.com

rockne10
06-07-2006, 09:42 PM
Brake lights work?

Eman
06-07-2006, 10:25 PM
Yep! Brake lights work, map light works, dome light works, turn signals work, and headlights work. Right now I'm a happy man. A little embarrassed, but happy nonetheless. [:I]



1951 Commander Starlight Coupe (aka "Stella")
www.bulletshots.net
www.bulletshots.net/blog
www.alabamastudes.com

Roscomacaw
06-08-2006, 12:28 AM
Cool DEAL! In fact, treat yourself to a cool one,Eric. You gonna be a Stude X-spurt when we're thru with you!;)

Miscreant at large.

1957 Transtar 1/2ton
1960 Larkvertible V8
1958 Provincial wagon
1953 Commander coupe
1957 President 2-dr
1955 President State
1951 Champion Biz cpe
1963 Daytona project FS