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Dick Steinkamp
06-01-2006, 07:32 PM
Joe Parson's '58 Golden Hawk on the cover of this month's TW is absolutely stunning [:p]. I have never seen one this color combination before...Shadowtone Red and Jewel Beige and it is gorgeous
[8D]. Just to see this picture was worth this year's SDC membership dues [^].




http://thenobot.org/images/s2d/s2d_01.jpg

rockne10
06-01-2006, 07:57 PM
We lesser beings can only drool.:(

stude freak
06-01-2006, 09:11 PM
Makes you wonder why when potenial buyers in late 57 n 58 bought a gm of ford. This by far was better looking than any of the competition.

Studedude1961
06-01-2006, 09:35 PM
Makes you wonder why when potenial buyers in late 57 n 58 bought a gm of ford. This by far was better looking than any of the competition.

Stude Freak is right and that's the first thing I thought of too looking at the beautiful cover shot. What a great color combination. Should have sold tens of thousands! Yet another great cover from Turning Wheels and an outstanding printing job from Good Printers.

Studedude1961
--1963 Cruiser

Transtar56
06-02-2006, 05:32 AM
"--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Makes you wonder why when potenial buyers in late 57 n 58 bought a gm of ford. This by far was better looking than any of the competition."

This is a question I think all Studebaker lovers have asked themselves many times.
I look at 55-57 Chevys at car shows,rows of them,see the outrages money they bring,and I just don't get it.

Guido
06-02-2006, 05:57 AM
No different with Avanti's and Corvette's. The Corvette was massed produced in comparison with the Avanti and despite its greater numbers they on average command a much higher price than any Avanti.

Guido Salvage - "Where rust is beautiful"

1946 M-16 fire truck
1948 M-16 grain truck
1949 2R16A grain truck
1949 2R17A fire truck
1955 E-38 grain truck
1957 3E-40 flatbed
1961 6E-28 grain truck
1962 7E-13D 4x4 rack truck
1962 Champ pickup
1962 GT Hawk 4 speed
1964 Avanti R2 4 speed
1964 Cruiser
And various other "treasures"

Scott
06-02-2006, 09:06 AM
I showed the cover to my wife. She didn't like the colors. She also pointed out she'd never heard of a Jewel that was beige, so why call it Jewel Beige? I like it, though.

N8N
06-02-2006, 09:10 AM
Is that the car that had an oil pressure issue at Charlotte? I remember looking at that car, it was absolutely gorgeous. I agree with the comments re: contemporary Ch*vies, etc. it is so gratifying (in a weird sort of way) when non-car-loving friends see a really, really nicely done shoebox - in far nicer condition than my car - and say something like "that's really nice, but I think your car is better looking" <G>

Now I do think any pre-68 Corvette is a great looking car, but given the price difference between a 'vette and an Avanti, in my mind the choice is a no brainer :)

nate

--
55 Commander Starlight
62 Daytona hardtop
http://home.comcast.net/~njnagel

Roscomacaw
06-02-2006, 10:32 AM
Oh Goodie! Chevy-slam time![}:)]

No, really.... Trying to be as unbiased as possible - the 55-6-7 Chevies really had NOTHING over a Stude of the same year..... except price:([8] And whether you like it or not, price dominates the bottom line (with a few exceptions, of course).

Heh - Studebaker knew this or they wouldn't have bothered with the Scotsman series for 57 & 58. And those stripped, basic transport models were a modest success. Alas, I'd bet (I confess, I haven't done any reasearch on it) that the closest comprable Chevy (or Ford) model would have been just a tad nicer in appointments.

The Hawks were really high end models. They were the draw to get buyers in the door with the hopes that they'd AT LEAST leave with a "bread & butter" sedan when they left. If they sold a Hawk - fine. But it wasn't important so long as the SOLD A CAR.;)

The factory wanted to economize and quit building Hawks altogether by 59 or 60 - the dealers wouldn't HEAR of that! They felt the Hawks had real value even if they didn't sell well.:D

Here's an honest question. Educate me.... why aren't 55-6-7-8-9-etc. Fords as abundant as Chevies of those same years? Why is it an absolute astonishment to see a Mopar car of that era as well?
There's a little town near here where a pretty, yellow & white 56 Ford sedan sits along the curb alot. It's actually refreshing to see something other than the omni-present Bel-Air on the streets.[xx(]

Miscreant at large.

1957 Transtar 1/2ton
1960 Larkvertible V8
1958 Provincial wagon
1953 Commander coupe
1957 President 2-dr
1955 President State
1951 Champion Biz cpe
1963 Daytona project FS

JBOYLE
06-02-2006, 11:04 AM
quote:Originally posted by Mr.Biggs

Oh Goodie! Chevy-slam time![}:)]

Here's an honest question. Educate me.... why aren't 55-6-7-8-9-etc. Fords as abundant as Chevies of those same years? .[xx(]

Miscreant at large.

1957 Transtar 1/2ton
1960 Larkvertible V8
1958 Provincial wagon
1953 Commander coupe
1957 President 2-dr
1955 President State
1951 Champion Biz cpe
1963 Daytona project FS


If my memory is correct (I can't get to my books now...I'm at work...don't tell the boss) in 57 Ford actually outsold the vaunted 57 Chevy!
Why are they rare now? Rust. Same goes for the Exner (sp?) designed Mopars of the era.

For some reason, the public fell in love with the Chevy and made it a real 50s icon right up there with the 55-57 T-bird and the 59 Caddy. To me the Mopars, Fords and Studes have really been overlooked by "car guys" and the general public as well. As a kid my dad had a 59 Caddy and later a 57 Ford two door wagon with the T-Bird engine..(so said the air cleaner decal) great cars.

63 Avanti R1 2788
1914 Stutz Bearcat
(George Barris replica)

Washington State

raprice
06-02-2006, 11:11 AM
Although I would acknowledge that the mid-50s Chevies were nice cars, I don't understand their over inflated values or prices that they get.
the Fords of the same vintage, I feel, are much better looking and the Studes of that time were even better looking.
I think that there's a feeling among most people that they want to be part of the front-runners. Since Chevy was the top seller, many people got onto that band wagon.
To me Studebaker owners have always been independent thinkers, much like Packard, Nash, etc owners. They don't go along with the crowd.
My 2 cents.
Rog
'59 Lark Regal Hardtop

Scott
06-02-2006, 11:34 AM
Wanna talk inflated values? Look at what the 1957 era corvettes are going for now! 85K-125K is now common. My dad has one. Is it neat? Yeah. Is it pretty? Yeah. Is it a nice car to ride in? Ummmm, well...get back to me on that.
Is it really that nice a car for the money? No, No, No.

bams50
06-02-2006, 01:30 PM
WOW, I envy your Dad... I wish I had his Corvette...

Because then I could sell it and use all that money to buy a whole BUNCH of nice Studes!!! [8D]

Robert K. Andrews Owner- IoMT (Island of Misfit Toys!)

studegary
06-02-2006, 01:47 PM
Did you all notice that the car has optional 15 inch wheels?

Gary L.
1954 Commander Starliner (restomod)
1959 DeLuxe pickup (restomod)

imported_n/a
06-02-2006, 05:19 PM
Um, some of you may not agree with me, but this Hawk would be an EXCELLENT starting point for a street rod, since it is in such good, solid condition. Gentleman's chop(6"), shaved door handles & all stainless removed and bumpers powdercoated.. Late Vette running gear, 20" chrome/gold wheels & slammed to the ground. Leather BMW seats with cruise, air and tilt. Let us not forget the killer steeereo system. What could I get for all the take-off parts on EBAY? It's a free country, isn't it? Just kidding, just kidding, just kidding, just kidding.[:0]

mbstude
06-02-2006, 06:26 PM
That's my DREAM car you're talking about there! (#1 on the list in fact) Only my dream car is Park Green and White.

Matthew Burnette, the 16 year old Stude nut.
South Georgia Chapter
63 Daytona HT (project)
51 Stude dump truck (yes, I won the raffle)
52 Commander Starliner (basket case)

MANY more Studes in the family and a few parts cars
http://community.webshots.com/user/mbstude101
And here: http://community.webshots.com/user/mbstudepagetwo
And here too: http://photos.yahoo.com/ph//my_photos

jimmijim8
06-02-2006, 07:07 PM
I saw that car in its most dilapidated state of deterioration and initial stage of restoration. Chuck Baranowsky did a number on that car. Very well done as always. Yee Haa!!!!! jimmijim

mbstude
06-02-2006, 07:37 PM
Hey jimmijim, I think you saw that 58 GH I'm talking about in Savannah. I even got to drive it... http://www.studebakerclubs.com/NorthGeorgia/Members/Sikes/sikes.html
And a few pics of it here: http://community.webshots.com/album/549140675Xzihic

Matthew Burnette, the 16 year old Stude nut.
South Georgia Chapter
63 Daytona HT (project)
51 Stude dump truck (yes, I won the raffle)
52 Commander Starliner (basket case)

MANY more Studes in the family and a few parts cars
http://community.webshots.com/user/mbstude101
And here: http://community.webshots.com/user/mbstudepagetwo
And here too: http://photos.yahoo.com/ph//my_photos

Roscomacaw
06-02-2006, 08:32 PM
Packebaker, I read your taunt and I was getting my keyboard ready to offer you the use of tazer for some well-needed shock therapy. Then it dawned on me that you were TRYIN' to make folks rise to the bait.[}:)]

Miscreant at large.

1957 Transtar 1/2ton
1960 Larkvertible V8
1958 Provincial wagon
1953 Commander coupe
1957 President 2-dr
1955 President State
1951 Champion Biz cpe
1963 Daytona project FS

BobPalma
06-02-2006, 09:59 PM
[quote]Originally posted by Mr.Biggs

No, really.... Trying to be as unbiased as possible - the 55-6-7 Chevies really had NOTHING over a Stude of the same year..... except price:([8] And whether you like it or not, price dominates the bottom line (with a few exceptions, of course).

Heh - Studebaker knew this or they wouldn't have bothered with the Scotsman series for 57 & 58. And those stripped, basic transport models were a modest success. Alas, I'd bet (I confess, I haven't done any reasearch on it) that the closest comprable Chevy (or Ford) model would have been just a tad nicer in appointments.

Here's an honest question. Educate me.... why aren't 55-6-7-8-9-etc. Fords as abundant as Chevies of those same years? Why is it an absolute astonishment to see a Mopar car of that era as well?
There's a little town near here where a pretty, yellow & white 56 Ford sedan sits along the curb alot. It's actually refreshing to see something other than the omni-present Bel-Air on the streets.[xx(]

Miscreant at large.


:D:D BLASPHEMY, Bob: The mere suggestion that a comparable Chevy or Ford could have had a tad nicer appointments than a Scotsman! How could a real Studebaker man entertain such a horrendous accusation! [}:)]

Why are 55-56-57 Chevies more plentiful than Fords or Plymouths? In the first place, the total production for all three years award probably goes to Chevy. Yes, I believe Ford outsold Chevy in MODEL YEARS 1955 and 1957, but Chevy was probably farther enough ahead in 1956 to make up the difference for the three-year totals.

Second reason was rust and body integrity. [xx(] Like it or not, a Fisher Body really was a better product than either Ford or MoPar of the era. Fords and MoPars had a much higher attrition rate as a result.

Third: A final factor against Fords were the V-8 engines. The Y-blocks were sturdy enough, but poor oiling on the top end took many to an early grave while the 265/283 Chevys just kept rolling along. The Ford Six was an excellent engine, but "Ford" and "V-8" were so well-linked by the mid 50s that people turned up their noses at Ford sixes. Since Chevy was known for sixes, they were still accepted in the marketplace.

[To wit: I remember going with my Dad to look at a nice, used 1956 Ford Customline 2-door hardtop in 1959, to possibly buy as a second car. (I was 12 years old at the time.) Dad got there and saw that it was a six [:0] and couldn't believe his eyes and walked as a result.]

SDCer Bill Pressler was here visiting this week and we got to talking about this very topic. ;) We found to our mutual surprise that we shared the opinion that 1957 Chevys were downright [:0][:0] ugly [:0][:0] compared with their contemporaries! (There, that ought to light up [^] this discussion before Sheriff Shaw pulls the plug on it!) :D BP

imported_n/a
06-03-2006, 03:42 AM
quote:Originally posted by Mr.Biggs

Packebaker, I read your taunt and I was getting my keyboard ready to offer you the use of tazer for some well-needed shock therapy. Then it dawned on me that you were TRYIN' to make folks rise to the bait.[}:)]


Wasn't really trying to upset anyone--Just trying to divert the thread back away from the topic of Fords and Chevys. [:0]

bams50
06-03-2006, 06:51 AM
I've always wondered how much the name Studebaker hurt sales... I know they had a good rep as a company with a long history- but I mean the name itself. People are influenced by names all the time; names like Bel-Air, Biscayne, Catalina (all names of really nice places!), Fairlane, Impala, Imperial, Mustang all tend to invoke a friendlier, classier, more exciting, or more fun feeling than Dictator, Commander, or even Studebaker! When I was a kid, and Studes were contemporary, they were looked at as "old man" cars... even the flashy Hawks and Avantis, with their cool names, couldn't overcome "Studebaker"... A good example is Camaro; it means "little pal" in Italian- yet is readily accepted as the name of some of the meanest, fastest, sometimes macho cars ever made! (I wonder how many young kids would be "uncomfortable" with the name if they knew that?) :D I remember the Chrysler Windsors... to this day I picture a big ol' 4 door sedan with a missing hubcap and an old fart with a cigar driving 45 MPH in the passing lane with his blinker on...:)

Today, when folks ask me why I love Studes, I could tell them about my soft spot for the old workhorses, or how having had all the Corvettes, Camaros, Mustangs, Chargers, etc. I also appreciate the cars you don't see row after row of at all the car shows... but usually say, "I love them because, what car name is there that's more fun to say than Studebaker?" :D:D



Robert K. Andrews Owner- IoMT (Island of Misfit Toys!)

http://www.cardomain.com/ride/2358680

5859
06-03-2006, 04:34 PM
I never understood Studebakers use of the name dictator, I guess they liked names that sounded regal or in charge, commander, president, but dictator, I think if I was around when these cars were new, I would have been put off by that name. The other thing is, most dictator's are beautiful cars, but if I had never seen one and just heard the name, that would be enough for me to decide I wasn't going to like the car.

5859
06-03-2006, 04:47 PM
By the way, I think that Chevrolet, even today, is somehow more associated with youth, and that is why they were and are more popular, when I think of the new T bird, which I think is a nice looking new car. I never picture a 20 something driving it, it is always an older person. And the fact that Chevys were cheap and pretty well made cars, with pretty decent engines and a wide availability of parts even now dosen't hurt either. Small block chevys were so mass produced that you can still buy parts at kragen or another oil and spark plug store. My Dad has a 57 chevy pickup, the master cylinder went out, and a remanufactured one is available from kragen, I am not sure, but I doubt they even have a book that covers Dodge or studebaker. I had a 58 chevy and the body was in better original condition than the 59 dodge 58 plymouth and various other studebakers I have had. That dosen't mean that I personally favor Chevys though, in fact I find them kind of boring.

jimmijim8
06-07-2006, 06:32 AM
The reason 55 thru 57 Chevys are so popular is because there are just not enough Studebaker coupes to accomodate the masses. How's that sound. Park your Stude coupe next to a 55-6-7 Chevy at a multi-make cruise. You may not get a recognition award, but you're more likely to garner more positive comments from the lookers than the Chebbie. That floats my boat more than any cobbled together odds and ends piece of pot-metal,fake marble or whatever have you piece of memoriabilia. I really like the 58 Impalas. To me that is a classy looking car, right up there with the Stude Coupes. Not meaning to down grade any 55-6-7 Chevy cars. As far as I am concerned most are pretty nice. I have them on my list of '50 CARS I'D LIKE TO OWN. Some where near the bottom 1/3 of the list. jimmijim

MacMyers
06-07-2006, 06:41 AM
quote:Originally posted by mbstude

That's my DREAM car you're talking about there! (#1 on the list in fact) Only my dream car is Park Green and White.




Matthew,
When I started driving in the early 70's.... I didn't even know what a Studebaker was. Don't recall ever seeing one. In fact, the first one I remember seeing was in the Muppet Movie! I went for the late 60's and very early 70's muscle cars. Same old Goats, Cameros, Chevelles every other kid wanted. I WISH that I could have gotten a clue and bought a few Studes. I'm still trying to figure out how I missed the Hawk. I'd still be driving them. I should have been you 30 years ago.

Proud Owner of:
The one and only 1963 BEND OVER POOP HAWK
And the 1966 Messtang!

Scott
06-07-2006, 09:03 AM
I'd like to see an old Camaro show up at a show with a Studebaker R2 setup under the hood for a change. How come we always hear about GM engines in Studebakers, but not the other way around? If they were such an easy swap it should go both ways, shouldn't it? Wouldn't a R2 engine do better than the stock 327 or whatever?

Sorry, I know this is off topic.

Dick Steinkamp
06-07-2006, 09:58 AM
quote:Originally posted by Scott

I'd like to see an old Camaro show up at a show with a Studebaker R2 setup under the hood for a change. How come we always hear about GM engines in Studebakers, but not the other way around? If they were such an easy swap it should go both ways, shouldn't it? Wouldn't a R2 engine do better than the stock 327 or whatever?

Sorry, I know this is off topic.


I've seen Studebaker V8's showing up in 30's Hot Rods. Pretty cool, especially with a couple of back draft 2 barrels on top [:p]

A Chevy swap into a Stude is a fairly easy swap (if you can call any swap "easy") because the Chevy is much smaller dimensionally than the Stude. You'd need a pretty big shoe horn to fit a Stude V8 into a Camaro (the Stude V8 is dimensionally similar to a big block Chevy) In addition, you'd spend several more times the money for a Stude R2 (and all the engineering to get it in the car) than you would for a Chevy crate motor with the same or more HP than the R2. You'd also have a couple of hundred more pounds more on the front end which wouldn't do much for the handling.

It would not be a good move from a cost/performance stand point, and it seems that folks that would like to do it out of "spite" come to their senses when they put a pencil to it.

http://thenobot.org/images/s2d/s2d_01.jpg

Roscomacaw
06-07-2006, 10:13 AM
About two years ago I had the chance to acquire a 450SL roadster. It was driveable, had a really nice cosmetics about it, inside and out, but the engine had problems. I had this crazy idea about putting a Stude V8 in it - coupled to a 200R4. [:p] Thankfully, someone else bought it before I saddled myself with another project.[}:)]

Miscreant at large.

1957 Transtar 1/2ton
1960 Larkvertible V8
1958 Provincial wagon
1953 Commander coupe
1957 President 2-dr
1955 President State
1951 Champion Biz cpe
1963 Daytona project FS

Scott
06-07-2006, 10:21 AM
Well, those are good reasons not to do it! On the other hand, considering some of the absolutely weird hot rods out there and guys with more money than they know what to do with, I'm surprised it hasn't been done - or done more often.

Let's see - what other cars would be a good candidate for a Studebaker engine (6 or 8). How about a chamion engine in a Pinto! It would use a lot less oil!

jimmijim8
06-07-2006, 01:19 PM
Mac, do you ever think that your Hawk will achieve status that will qualify it to be referred to as something other than The POOP HAWK? I once owned a Poopmobile that required a frame off restoration. The 63 R1 Hawk that I am speaking of is now a show winner to say the least. Over a period of 15 years I spent no less than 4000 hours disassembling the body and frame completely. Sand blasting every nut, bolt,you name it, everything was de-rusted. I even took the rear leaf springs apart and blasted each leaf separately. Thank goodness I was able to use a pretty large blast cabinet where I formerly worked. No stone was left unturned other than I failed to finsh rebuilding the engine. That would have been the easy part. Every thing else was completely re-built including the front suspension and even new bearings replaced the ones in the windows. The trunk floor was rusted through in every corner. I even had to fabricate a new center of trunk floor stiffner. The hog troughs were at least 1/3 useable. Two of the pieces on each side not counting the rocker panels were replaced. I meticulously hand made the front floor areas on both sides with quite a few pieces of metal with ending result being a very close if not dead on replication of the original. From the front outriggers rearward I bought classic pans and just whacked the fronts off. I paid $3600.00 in 1985 dollars for the car and sold it for a few hundred more just about three years ago. Real stupid of me and I do regret it. This car was the chore of my life. When I sold the car for not a good reason, {it was at the time I thought} the buyer didn't have to look but a couple of minutes before handing me over a deposit. I was done with Studes. I proceeded to give him doubles of parts I had acquired at various swap meets over the course of 15 years. 3 years later I ran into this beautiful looking 63 Hawk at a car show that I was visiting. My brother said to me. There was a car like you used to own that just drove past. Well in fact there were a total of 3 G.T.'s at the show and I didn't see any champaigne gold ones. I did run across a dark red metallic G.T. and the more I looked at it it became evident to me this was my former car. Confirmation was the fact that it had the 64 G.T red interior that I had purchased from Tom Mc Farland from Maryland, and some other diddys that I was all too familiar with. Well the bug had just bitten me again and from then I began searching for another Hawk. I lucked out and purchased one on e- bay at a ridiculously low buy-it-now price probably because the seller didn't know its true value, listed it right after midnight and came dancing across my monitor screen at about 4:30 A.M. I may have possibly been the first to see it. I didn't hesitate to hit the buy-it-now. Thats what I call instant gratification. While attending a car cruise about a month ago a fellow came up to me and complimented me on my car. In the course of the conversation he told me of a Hawk he had seen recently and he after chatting with its owner {@#$%^&*(())&} I'm not going to mention his name, but seems that the owner restored the car over the course of the winter months. I led him on a bit and then took out my packet of photos with one being the car he was speaking of in its pretty red paint. Yeah, thats the car he says. I then showed him the myriad of pictures I carry with me of my former restoration project. Any how, I am flattered the new owner prides himself on his paint job and my restoration.. Incidentally it didn't need a color change, only because the new owner favored the RED. The paint was fine. Acrylic lacquer. I know that is a no-no as far as some are concerned. Akin to eating hot dogs I've been told. Any how in my case, all's well that ends well. No I will not even think about restoring another poop mobile. Not enough energy left in me and what for. It can be done but be well informed what you are in for. Sometimes even if you think you can't afford a better one, you will end up spending more on a restoration. Better to get a loan and make monthly payments

Scott
06-07-2006, 02:43 PM
Jim,

After all that work isn't it sobering to realize that it probably took less than a few hours to build your car when it was NEW?! Of course all the parts were handy and they had more manpower, but even so it kind of makes you think.

Roscomacaw
06-07-2006, 04:50 PM
I've wondered what sort of manhours Studebaker figured into their products. You know then kept track of this.;)

Miscreant at large.

1957 Transtar 1/2ton
1960 Larkvertible V8
1958 Provincial wagon
1953 Commander coupe
1957 President 2-dr
1955 President State
1951 Champion Biz cpe
1963 Daytona project FS

jimmijim8
06-07-2006, 05:18 PM
I could have probably cut my time down considerably had I had all new parts to start with. It was somewhat like a kit car only I had to disassemble it completely , refurbish what could be salvaged, buy replacement parts when necessary, and then start assembly. My cheapest part came frome Pete Kliment from Forest Hills Pa. Very close to Pittsburgh. A trunk lid for only $12.00 in 1987. How times have changed. The project was very sobering. I must have been drunk to even start on it. Long live 63V 14628. jimmijim

Guido
06-07-2006, 07:29 PM
Mr. Biggs,

When I bought my '52 Packard (I don't list it with my Studes to keep you guys from whining) it came with a shop manual. I spent several hours reading it and it contained numerous tips for the dealer to increase his revenue by doing other work. It also listed suggested labor rates and parts prices, I think the cost of replacing a front fender and painting it was arount $21.50!

Gary

Guido Salvage - "Where rust is beautiful"

1946 M-16 fire truck
1948 M-16 grain truck
1949 2R16A grain truck
1949 2R17A fire truck
1955 E-38 grain truck
1957 3E-40 flatbed
1961 6E-28 grain truck
1962 7E-13D 4x4 rack truck
1962 Champ pickup
1962 GT Hawk 4 speed
1964 Avanti R2 4 speed
1964 Cruiser
And various other "treasures"