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View Full Version : Transmission... Flight-o-matic? Powershift?



jtsovik
05-27-2006, 02:49 PM
Is Flight-o-matic and Powershift two different transmsions? Or is Powershift just an expression for Flight-o-matic?
My tranny is marked AS2-10F (by Warner gear div. Muncie). The shift pattern is PRND21.
What tranny is it and what is the correct lubrication?
What Stud model has this tranny as standard?

It is installed in my 1967 Excalibur which used the Daytona chassis as a basis.

Jan Tore
Norway, Europe

mbstude
05-27-2006, 04:31 PM
IF it's a PowerShift, it would be a floor shifter. A Flight o Matic would be on the column. The Flight o Matic pattern is PNDLR. Yours must be the PowerShift. There basically the same tranny.

Matthew Burnette, the 16 year old Stude nut.
South Georgia Chapter
63 Daytona HT (project)
51 Stude dump truck (yes, I won the raffle)
52 Commander Starliner (basket case)

MANY more Studes in the family and a few parts cars
http://community.webshots.com/user/mbstude101
And here: http://community.webshots.com/user/mbstudepagetwo
And here too: http://photos.yahoo.com/ph//my_photos

Roscomacaw
05-27-2006, 05:48 PM
That shift pattern says Powershift. A standard Flight-o-matic would have a PNDLR pattern.

The Powershift is really just a heavy duty Flight-o-matic with different valving to achieve the manual gear selection range.;)

Miscreant at large.

1957 Transtar 1/2ton
1960 Larkvertible V8
1958 Provincial wagon
1953 Commander coupe
1957 President 2-dr
1955 President State
1951 Champion Biz cpe
1963 Daytona project FS

mbstude
05-27-2006, 06:37 PM
Mr. Biggs, where can one see pictures of your collection?

Matthew Burnette, the 16 year old Stude nut.
South Georgia Chapter
63 Daytona HT (project)
51 Stude dump truck (yes, I won the raffle)
52 Commander Starliner (basket case)

MANY more Studes in the family and a few parts cars
http://community.webshots.com/user/mbstude101
And here: http://community.webshots.com/user/mbstudepagetwo
And here too: http://photos.yahoo.com/ph//my_photos

jtsovik
05-27-2006, 10:15 PM
Thanks for your replies...
But what is the correct lubrication for the Powershift? Dexron III???
And what Stud model(s) has this tranny as standard?

N8N
05-27-2006, 10:17 PM
Either Dexron or Type F should work; Type F will give firmer shifts. It wasn't installed "standard" on anything but the Avanti (well, a 3-speed stick was standard, but the Powershift was the standard automatic,) but was available in all models. I want to say that any "package car" ordered with an automatic got a Powershift, but I can't say that with 100% certainty.

nate

--
55 Commander Starlight
62 Daytona hardtop
http://home.comcast.net/~njnagel

Roscomacaw
05-27-2006, 11:07 PM
N8, I think some of them got a HD FOM with a column shift lever.

Matthew, someday I'll put up some photos.;)

Miscreant at large.

1957 Transtar 1/2ton
1960 Larkvertible V8
1958 Provincial wagon
1953 Commander coupe
1957 President 2-dr
1955 President State
1951 Champion Biz cpe
1963 Daytona project FS

Dick Steinkamp
05-27-2006, 11:57 PM
quote:Originally posted by Mr.Biggs

N8, I think some of them got a HD FOM with a column shift lever.

Matthew, someday I'll put up some photos.;)



Here's some interesting Stude Automatic trivia...

In 1963. 3 automatics were offered for the GT Hawks. The FOM (with the standard engines) was a $209.50 option. The HD FOM (with non package R1 and R2 engines) was $229.78. The Power Shift (available all models...floor shift) was $219.50. Closer in price than I would have guessed.

Matthew,
Here's my favorite picture of Mr. Biggs' Provincial. Taken while it was still in my custody. Mr. Biggs has done some very nice work to it in the last year or so.

http://static.flickr.com/6/76920327_043737ca91_o.jpg

http://thenobot.org/images/s2d/s2d_01.jpg

mbstude
05-28-2006, 05:00 PM
Cool ride! A friend of mine has a totally original, unrestored 57 Prez wagon that has about every option there is. AC, power windows and seats, and lots more. I like that look with the long board. I know another guy that has a 59 Lark wagon with a surf board in the back...

Matthew Burnette, the 16 year old Stude nut.
South Georgia Chapter
63 Daytona HT (project)
51 Stude dump truck (yes, I won the raffle)
52 Commander Starliner (basket case)

MANY more Studes in the family and a few parts cars
http://community.webshots.com/user/mbstude101
And here: http://community.webshots.com/user/mbstudepagetwo
And here too: http://photos.yahoo.com/ph//my_photos

ROADRACELARK
05-29-2006, 10:29 AM
As far as I can remember,(sometimes that's not very far[xx(]) I don't think the Power Shift was ever "factory" available with a bench seat. In those cars the HD-FOM (column shift) was the only AT offered. Bob, (Mr. Biggs) I still have that DSO 63 Cruiser R-1, (now the 3rd oldest listed in the JT roster) and yes it's STILL under re-construction. I believe this car was once in your possession??? FYI, I used to do the service work on that car when it was almost new. It's owner then used it to terrorize teenagers on our favorite incompleted strech of I-285:D Oh those were the days!!!
Dan

ROADRACELARK
05-29-2006, 11:13 AM
Just for clarification, the early "R" powered Larks, and mabe some Hawks, did NOT come standard with the HD-FOM, but the FOM. In a short time, due to failures of the std. FOM under hard usage, they were recalled by the factory and "up-dated" with the HD-FOM w/ appropriate torque convertor, including a new radiator (w/cooler) and related hardware. My R-1 Cruiser mentioned in the earlier thread had this done.
More clarification...this info pretains to the non-package cars.
Dan

Roscomacaw
05-29-2006, 12:07 PM
WOW! Dan. I didn't remember what had happened with that Cruiser! That's SO COOL to think that it still survives[8D]
When I first saw that car, it was in a basment garage, out east of Atlanta. I hauled it to the shop using Jim Loftin's truck and the shop's trailer.
Once at the shop, it fired right up with some minor tinkering. I was SOOOO anxious to test drive it that I nearly put it into someone's front yard on our street.[:0] I figgered I could drive that snarling R1 OK with just one brake working.[:p] Luckily, the car handled better than my judgement![}:)]
I wanna say I gave $150 for that thing but I really can't be sure after almost 30 years.[:I]

Miscreant at large.

1957 Transtar 1/2ton
1960 Larkvertible V8
1958 Provincial wagon
1953 Commander coupe
1957 President 2-dr
1955 President State
1951 Champion Biz cpe
1963 Daytona project FS

studee64
05-29-2006, 07:25 PM
FOM or HD-FOM...vs GM 400 or 700R...??

I need to switch from a standard transmission to an automatic in my '64 Daytona..(factory 225 hp 289)

I would appreciate some feed back on the pros and cons of the costs involved for each, performance expectations, and the benefits of keeping, or not keeping the car all Studebaker...

Thanks

Barry

Roscomacaw
05-29-2006, 08:49 PM
Well, either FOM is one brute of a tranny. Unless you plan on towing with that Daytona, the HD unit isn't warranted, in my opinion.(nor in the opinion of John Metzker - FOM technical advisor to SDC.)

I keep recalling Ted's (Ted Harbit) testimony as to the FOM's hardiness. He's told me that he raced an FOM in the Chicken Hawk for TWELVE YEARS and never busted it!!! He only changed it out for a GM T/H tranny because other (Brand X) racers told him that the increased power of the turbo he was installing would rip up the FOM. Consequently he DID do the conversion and destroyed two "built" Turbo-Hydro trannies in short order. Finally, he DID get one that's held together - so far.[}:)]

A good FOM and all that's required (stock parts) to convert to an automatic - figure a grand or $1200 bucks. A GM 200R4 or 700R4 (either works well and the overdrive gear IS worthy of consideration with 3 buck a gallon gasoline nowdays!) will cost you over 2 grand by the time you get the adaptor, the trannie and convertor, the shifter setup or mod and the changed rear motor mount and driveshaft.[:I]

Miscreant at large.

1957 Transtar 1/2ton
1960 Larkvertible V8
1958 Provincial wagon
1953 Commander coupe
1957 President 2-dr
1955 President State
1951 Champion Biz cpe
1963 Daytona project FS

Chicken Hawk
05-29-2006, 09:02 PM
The easiest and cheapest thing to do would be to put the FOM in. Just be sure it is in good shape when you put it in.

I am running a GM 400 in my '51 drag car but would never change from the FOM to a GM 350 or 400 for a street car. The ONLY thing you gain is first gear start and you can put a first gear start valve body in if that's that important to you.

I would consider putting a 200 or 700 in for the low gear, overdrive and lockup converter though. You can use something like a 3.73 rear and have good take off power and yet cruise the highway with very reasonable rpm's. You will need an adapter kit which will run $300 to $400 plus the transmission, converter, shifter, drive shaft and rear mount modifications, etc.

Don't let anyone tell you the FOM is a weak transmission. They used this same basic type transmission in the '64 Ford 427 Thunderbolts before they had the C6. I ran the Powershift several years with no problem and when I put a GM 350 in, it was junk within three weeks. I think the 400 is probably stronger than the Powershift but I've torn three of those up but have more HP now than when I was running the Powershift.

Ted
******************************************************************

quote:Originally posted by studee64

FOM or HD-FOM...vs GM 400 or 700R...??

I need to switch from a standard transmission to an automatic in my '64 Daytona..(factory 225 hp 289)

I would appreciate some feed back on the pros and cons of the costs involved for each, performance expectations, and the benefits of keeping, or not keeping the car all Studebaker...

Thanks

Barry

ROADRACELARK
05-29-2006, 09:20 PM
Mr. Biggs is right on the money and you'll also need the correct GM starter for that set up, add that to the $$$$:(
In the conversion to the FOM from the stick,if my memory is not stopped up, you'll need to change out the LONG flywheel-to-crankshaft bolts for the correct short ones for the flex-plate. This entails removal of engine oil pan and rear main bearing cap. I think the long bolts will contact the torque convertor when it is installed[xx(]. By all means follow the instructions in the Shop Manual. OBTW, you'll need the FOM drive shaft for a 2dr and while you're at it, get the complete steering column, box and all. That's the easiest way.
Dan Miller

Roscomacaw
05-29-2006, 10:08 PM
Dan brings up good points. There IS the matter of the crankshaft bolts to contend with NOT TO MENTION.... that the FOM bellhousing will have to be "dialed in" to the V8 block you're using. Each bellhousing-to-engine mating was aligned seperately, so you can't just sling a auto bellhousing on there without dire consequences.[xx(]

Miscreant at large.

1957 Transtar 1/2ton
1960 Larkvertible V8
1958 Provincial wagon
1953 Commander coupe
1957 President 2-dr
1955 President State
1951 Champion Biz cpe
1963 Daytona project FS

studee64
05-29-2006, 10:10 PM
Thank you guys..

I get the message loud and clear..

I had a call tonite from a local chap who is in the middle of switching out his 63/64 Avanti power shift to a 700R and will "make me a deal I can't refuse"...

So looks like the car will remain pure Studebaker.!!.

Barry

casey
05-30-2006, 12:48 PM
I rebuilt the FOM that was in my '64 Challenger. Added 1st gear start valve body. Boy, do I like that 1st gear start! Boy, do I NOT like the mileage. Does anyone know if the 700R4 will increase mileage in town over the FOM? I know the mileage will be better on the highway. I'm considering the 700R4 for another project; the FOM will stay in the Challenger forever. (the wife calls it the 'Challenger disaster')

studee64
05-30-2006, 03:05 PM
Casey..

I have to ask...what is the axle ratio that is eating up all the gas ??

Tks

Barry

jtsovik
05-30-2006, 05:46 PM
Heeeeeeeeeeeeeelp...
By forum reply I have concluded I have a Borg-Warner Power-Shift in my 1967 Excalibur... (Because of the floor shifter and the pattern PRND21)
The housing is marked "Warner Gear Muncie AS2-10F".
Forum reply also tell me to use ATF type A, but my transmission shop says type F (they tell me it's because of either bronze/copper/asbestos parts in the trans)
Thankful for clarifications [^]

Roscomacaw
05-30-2006, 06:44 PM
Well, for one thing, Type A hasn't been available for YEARS! At least, not here in the USA.

Further, tell your transmission shop that there's LOTS of these transmissions running around here with either TypeF OR Dexron III in them and they perform just fine like this. ;)

Miscreant at large.

1957 Transtar 1/2ton
1960 Larkvertible V8
1958 Provincial wagon
1953 Commander coupe
1957 President 2-dr
1955 President State
1951 Champion Biz cpe
1963 Daytona project FS

jtsovik
05-31-2006, 11:19 AM
OK
Thank yoy. Then I'll go for Dexron III and hope the tranny enjoy manually gearshifts more than ever...:D

Jan Tore

casey
05-31-2006, 02:32 PM
Studee64: My rear end is TT 3.31. Carb is new Edlebrock 4bbl, 500 cfm. I went one step leaner on the metering rods than the way it was shipped. Engine is stock 289.

I believe my mileage is about 11 around town. I haven't actually been on the highway since I installed the Edlebrock.

Frank Starr
06-01-2006, 04:04 PM
And don't forget to install those flywheel bolts in the crankshaft BEFORE you install the rear main cap and pan!!!

Experience....

N8N
06-01-2006, 04:37 PM
If you're going to row it manually, you might want to consider using Type F as it will make it shift a little harder.

nate

--
55 Commander Starlight
62 Daytona hardtop
http://home.comcast.net/~njnagel

Anders
06-05-2006, 11:59 AM
OK - I know, it's a set of basic questions, but still, guys, please help:

a) Which transmission fluid would be the best for my Flight-O-Matic (1963 GT Hawk w/289)? I have seen a variety of suggestions...

b) If I want my local transmission shop to to a proper, "regular" overhaul of my transmission, would it be fair to say it's a "standard Borg-Warner", of the same kind they used in the early Mustangs?

c) How can I find out which rear axle I have in my car? I have (a copy of) the original production order - can I find it there? I doubt it ever has been changed or rebuilt.

Reason why I ask is that I live in Swden, and Studes were never that frequent (still, never rare either)... and today, there are not that many around...

Best regards,
Anders Annerfalk

Roscomacaw
06-05-2006, 12:27 PM
a: Dexron III or Type F - the theory being that Type F affords a bit crisper shifts. Honestly, I can't tell the difference.

b: Borg-Warner cast iron 3-speed - shares much with a Ford-o-matic of the same era.

c:Ideally, the ratio tag's still attached to one of the rear cover bolts on the axle assembly. You can turn the driveshaft and note how much you have to do so to effect one turn of the wheels OR you could pull the cover and look for the ratio stamped onto the outer edge of the ring gear hub.
If it's reflected on the PO, it'll state what the ratio is. For example: 3.31 or 3.54 or 3.73 or some such.;)

Miscreant at large.

1957 Transtar 1/2ton
1960 Larkvertible V8
1958 Provincial wagon
1953 Commander coupe
1957 President 2-dr
1955 President State
1951 Champion Biz cpe
1963 Daytona project FS

showbizkid
06-05-2006, 01:34 PM
quote:Originally posted by Mr.Biggs

the FOM bellhousing will have to be "dialed in" to the V8 block you're using.


I've seen that term "dialed in" a lot here as I've cruised around the forum. What exactly does it mean? Is this a process that must be done whenever the trans is dropped?



---------------------------
Clark in San Diego:

Proud new owner of a '63 Lark!

Anders
06-05-2006, 01:53 PM
Mr Biggs (and all other fellow SDC-members who share all your knowledge),

Many thanks for your good advice!
Just a few words about my Ermin White 1963 GT Hawk:
I bought my car last summer from Roger Penn in Fairfax, VA. It was on the E-bay, and apparently I gave the best bid. Even though I had seen pics of the car, it was a moment of truth when I picked up the car in Gothenburg harbor (Swedish West Coast). Well, to make it short, I was overwhelmed when I stepped in, started the engine (it started without any problem) and five minutes later drove it to my home town of Linkoping, some 180 miles away. Incidentally, this was the second time I had ever driven a Studebaker (first time was a two-mile ride in a car I was looking to by but never did). Having dreamed of once having a GT Hawk for the better part of the last 25 years, it was a memorable ride.

Anders
06-05-2006, 02:18 PM
[quote]Originally posted by Mr.Biggs

Anders, sounds like you got a great car! Quite a risk, I would think - when buying across the pond! Glad it worked out in your favor. Are you having problems with the transmission now?

Mr Biggs,
I wouldn't say that I have a problem - I think it works fine, but I can sometimes hear a loud "klonck"-sound when it goes in to "Drive" or "Reverse". This happens normally when the engine is hot and - I think - is idling a bit too high. However, to have a change of oil and filter, or as close as I come to a regular "maintenance", was more of a precaution.
But, maybe i should stick to the old wisdom of "If it's not broken, don't mend it"...
Thanks for your kind words!

Regards,
Anders

Roscomacaw
06-05-2006, 02:41 PM
Anders, sounds like you got a great car! Quite a risk, I would think - when buying across the pond! Glad it worked out in your favor. Are you having problems with the transmission now?

showbiz: "dialing in" refers to when you switch a bellhousing/engine block combo from what the respective pairing was when the car left the factory.
It's the bellhousing that gets "dialed in" (accurately aligned, if you will) with the engine block - not the transmission. And once a bellhousing is dialed in to a given block, it shouldn't have to be done again - so long as that particular engine and bellhousing are used together.

Miscreant at large.

1957 Transtar 1/2ton
1960 Larkvertible V8
1958 Provincial wagon
1953 Commander coupe
1957 President 2-dr
1955 President State
1951 Champion Biz cpe
1963 Daytona project FS

Roscomacaw
06-05-2006, 03:16 PM
Anders, maybe the engine IS idling a bit high. In either event, I'd have a close look at the driveshaft U-joints as well as the motor mounts. Those could cause a knock like you speak of, if they're worn.;)

Miscreant at large.

1957 Transtar 1/2ton
1960 Larkvertible V8
1958 Provincial wagon
1953 Commander coupe
1957 President 2-dr
1955 President State
1951 Champion Biz cpe
1963 Daytona project FS

ROADRACELARK
06-05-2006, 03:40 PM
Wouldn't hurt to check the tightness of those rear axle nuts.:) If memory serves me correctly, I think it's 175lbs/ft torque. If the cotter key hole dosen't line up, tighten the nut to the NEXT slot. Just more FFT,(food for thought). Hope this helps.:)
Dan