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curt
08-28-2006, 10:14 PM
!963 block V8. Top dead center is the mark nearest the ING , as the pointer points to the mark. Which side of ING is the mark, I can not tell from reading the book. ING is one wide mark. I'm looking for two answers top dead center( can it be found using a timing light?) and where to set the timing. I think timing is within the two ING marks.

wagone
08-28-2006, 11:32 PM
Those standard V8 timing marks always did confuse me.......guess that's why I bought an Avanti---much easier to read; even I can understand it.

wagone

StudeRich
08-29-2006, 12:36 AM
Curt; the engine turns clockwise, that means the line to the right of the "TDC" mark is the "Timing Mark" which is 4 degrees "BEFORE TOP DEAD CENTER" and marked "IGN" which happens FIRST going clockwise (get it). Then comes the TDC mark. In other words just time it ON the line very close to the "I" and just forget it![^] Since they are a 1/4 inch apart, YES you should be able to see em both with the timing light. I just paint the line close to "IGN" with whiteout correction fluid and the tip of the pointer so I can see it better.[:0] Don't forget to disconnect the vacuum advance, tape the open hose and set idle at 625 or lower while timing. If this is a Standard 224,259,289 V-8.
Hope this helps, Rich.

StudeRich
Studebakers Northwest
Ferndale, WA

Dwain G.
08-29-2006, 12:42 AM
There are really three very narrow marks on those pulleys. In the normal direction of rotation, the first mark that would line up with the pointer would be 'IN-OP' (Intake Open). It is used for checking valve timing, and you'll probably never need it. The second mark, 'IGN', represents the specified ignition timing of 4. Depending on your fuel and other engine conditions you can probably advance some from this point, like putting the G or the N under the pointer. The last mark, 'UDC', is top dead center. Good 'ole Stude is still using an outdated term 'Upper Dead Center'.

http://home.comcast.net/~jdwain/9GQ2.jpg
Dwain G.

StudeRich
08-29-2006, 12:48 AM
I always heard it called: "ULTIMATE DEAD CENTER"



quote:Originally posted by Dwain G. Good 'ole Stude is still using an outdated term 'Upper Dead Center'

StudeRich
Studebakers Northwest
Ferndale, WA

studeclunker
08-29-2006, 01:07 AM
Really? I thought Ultimate Dead Centre was the shopping centre here in Lewiston.:D

Ok, I'll shut up.[:I]

Lotsa Larks!
K.I.S.S. Keep It Simple Studebaker!
Ron Smith

curt
08-29-2006, 08:07 AM
I will copy this for refrence, thanks a million . I have been asked to drive the homecoming Queen around the foot ball field, that's a first for me in a Studebaker. I have driven several from the wedding to the reception ( had a Kaiser at the time) in past years:D:)

53k
11-18-2006, 04:46 PM
quote:Originally posted by Dwain G.

There are really three very narrow marks on those pulleys. In the normal direction of rotation, the first mark that would line up with the pointer would be 'IN-OP' (Intake Open). It is used for checking valve timing, and you'll probably never need it. The second mark, 'IGN', represents the specified ignition timing of 4. Depending on your fuel and other engine conditions you can probably advance some from this point, like putting the G or the N under the pointer. The last mark, 'UDC', is top dead center. Good 'ole Stude is still using an outdated term 'Upper Dead Center'.
Dwain G.

I searched and found this older thread that kind of addressed my problem(s). I had completely written my post before and when I tried to post it, I wasn't logged in (GRRR!) so I lost it all and now have to re-write it.
Anyhow, earlier this year I let a friend rebuild the 259 in my '64 Daytona Wagonaire. It had 130,000 miles on it, but ran smoothly and didn't smoke. It did have low oil pressure. I envisioned honing the cylinders and using the .001 289 pistons and 289 crank. Later he told me he couldn't use the pistons and that it had been bored .101 (I think to be able to use some other brand pistons that were readily available to him). Anyhow, to make a long sad story a little shorter, I got the car back in running condition, but with a much smaller bank balance. I couldn't drive it because a power steering hose had broken. Yesterday I finally got the hoses installed (a story in itself). So, I decided to try it out this am. It had been idling kind of rough and when I tried to accelerate it was VERY sluggish and kind of bucked wth more gas. I turned around in about 100 yards and came back. I decided to try some simpler things first. I put a timing light on it and I couldn't see any of the marks on the balancer. When I went to loosen the distributor clamp I found it was already loose. With the vacuum port blocked on the carb I started turning the distributor. Apparently it was severely retarded. When I got to the IGN mark it smoothed up some, but it got smoother when I went on past IN-OP. I locked the distributor there and tried a test drive again. Better, but still a little sluggish. My questions: could increasing the displacement that much radically change the timing? It has the stock cam. Could the cam have been installed a tooth off to make it so far off the marks?
Another concern is when I tried to put it in gear I have to press the clutch hard against the floor and it still isn't completely releasing. When driving there is a grumbling sound from the clutch area and sitting idling in neutral it is pretty noisy. Is this just a free pedal issue or am I into a bigger problem (the clutch and throw-out bearing are new). I kind of hated to give up the old clutch because it was original and still worked great, but...
Thanks,

[img=right]http://www.frontiernet.net/~thejohnsons/64%20Daytona%20Convertible/Copy%20of%20DaytonaConvert7-20-06.JPG[/img=right]

Paul Johnson
'53 Commander Starliner (since 1966)
'64 Daytona Wagonaire (original owner)
'64 Daytona Convertible (2006)
Museum R-4 engine

Dick Steinkamp
11-18-2006, 06:20 PM
quote:Originally posted by 53k
My questions: could increasing the displacement that much radically change the timing?


Increasing the displacement that much (yikes!...a tenth of an inch), will increase the compression ratio quite a bit. If the brand x pistons he used were not dished, that's another huge increase in CR. I'm not sure what an increase in CR does to desired timing, but if the CR is WAY up there, it probably won't run too good on pump gas.



http://static.flickr.com/100/292046667_cc1661ba0e_m.jpg

Dick Steinkamp
11-18-2006, 09:00 PM
quote:Originally posted by hotwheels63r2

Another post I saw suggested boring between 93-125 thousandths gets you .4 points of compression.

A thick head gasket may help reduce your problem if not already in there.....

MIKE


You can calculate it here...

http://www.smokemup.com/auto_math/

http://static.flickr.com/100/292046667_cc1661ba0e_m.jpg

John Kirchhoff
11-18-2006, 09:03 PM
Don't worry 53K, I had to go past the timing mark to get my engine to run right also. Chalk it up to wear on the teeth of the distributor and camshaft. The more wear the more retarded the timing.

StudeRich
11-18-2006, 09:56 PM
OK guys & gals, I think Paul's post is something that needs to be read by everyone who even THINKS about having engine work done by someone other than themselfs or a qualified Studebaker mechanic.

This kind of thing is getting to be pretty common these days. I certainly hope and pray that Paul has not been ripped off like the other 2 cases I have personally seen where some engine guy (one of them was an actual "rebuilder") gets the bright idea that you can charge a Stude. owner 3 or $400.00 or more for a set of "Stude. Pistons" and then buy some cheap 4 or 6 cyl. ones like 2000 CC Ford 4 cyl. that happen to have to a simular deck height and pin location as in this case an R1 289, BUT have a totally WRONG wrist pin to match the special "locked in the rod" Stude. design, so then just take a bench grinder and modify the Pin to fit! Can you say: Insane! [xx(] They of course also were METRIC size and the block had to be bored to some oddball .043 over or something so no correct pistons could ever fit. We rebuilt one R1 289 in a nice rare original Super Lark Cruiser that had just that treatment, it just goes a few thousand miles before scoring the cylinder walls and ruining the block. This one being a rare numbers matching JT block, since it had only 2 bad holes we were able to sleeve them and bore it .060 over rather than scrap it.

Anyway the bottom line folks is not that I am looking for business at all. (we only have time & space to do 2 or 3 a year) I just want to say it is extreamly important people, that you do not let these "mechanics" touch your Studebaker. We have people like Jon & Mike Meyer, Bill Cathcart, Fairborn Studebaker, Ted Harbit, Dave Thibault to name only a few who know studes and will at least guide you if not do the work CORRECTLY![^] Please check out your machine shop and mechanic first before paying too much for a really bad job.
Rich.


quote:Originally posted by 53k
I envisioned honing the cylinders and using the .001 289 pistons and 289 crank. Later he told me he couldn't use the pistons and that it had been bored .101 (I think to be able to use some other brand pistons that were readily available to him).Paul Johnson

StudeRich
Studebakers Northwest
Ferndale, WA

StudeRich
11-18-2006, 10:40 PM
Paul, I think you might need to check the clutch adjustment rod for damaged, bent or wrong part, many cars require the longer Avanti rod 1560969 to get full release, or you could have extreame wear on the cross shaft or clevis (holes wallowed out) causing only partial release.


quote:[i]Originally posted by 53k: Another concern is when I tried to put it in gear I have to press the clutch hard against the floor and it still isn't completely releasing. When driving there is a grumbling sound from the clutch area and sitting idling in neutral it is pretty noisy. Is this just a free pedal issue or am I into a bigger problem (the clutch and throw-out bearing are new). I kind of hated to give up the old clutch because it was original and still worked great, but...
Thanks,Paul Johnson

StudeRich
Studebakers Northwest
Ferndale, WA

53k
11-19-2006, 09:56 AM
Thanks for all the good replies. I guess a little more explanation is in order.
I wouldn't turn over a Studebaker to someone who wasn't familiar with them. This man is a dedicated Studebaker driver and had rebuilt two Studebaker V-8s shortly before I took mine to him. I hadn't planned to, but he had asked me to let him do it. He is suffering from Parkinson's and wanted to keep his skills alive. Unfortunately, he got sicker and sicker and just couldn't do things that he had planned. He did have a man helping him to provide "muscle", but... Also, the machine shop changed ownership while my engine was there and he (I) got severely ripped off by the shop (supposely "lost" all the parts I had furnished so I had to re-buy most everything). To compound things he had some serious family and financial problems at the same time (at least I want to believe him when he told us). I basically decided to just write off the expense as a form of charity (even though I really couldn't afford it).
Regarding the timing- even with the timing set before the OP-IN mark I didn't get any pinging on acceleration. I'm going to check the compression to get a rough idea of where it is. I guess I'll keep moving up the timing until it pings a bit then I'll back it off a little. I doubt that there is wear on the distributor or cam. Anything showing wear was replaced and the distributor, a T-Bow MoPar unit, didn't have 100 miles on it.
The old clutch was never adjusted in 130,000 miles and worked perfectly. I guess I'll check the linkage and try to get some pedal free play.
Thanks again. It will take me a few days to get back to the car, but I'll report what I find.

[img=right]http://www.frontiernet.net/~thejohnsons/64%20Daytona%20Convertible/Copy%20of%20DaytonaConvert7-20-06.JPG[/img=right]

Paul Johnson
'53 Commander Starliner (since 1966)
'64 Daytona Wagonaire (original owner)
'64 Daytona Convertible (2006)
Museum R-4 engine

John Kirchhoff
11-19-2006, 11:04 AM
53K, a good way to set the ignition timing is to use a timing light to rough it in and then use a vacuum guage to fine tune. With the vacuun advance disconnected adjust the timing until you get the high reading which will probably be up around 18-20 inches. If it pings on the road you can then back if off a bit.

I agree with StudeRich when it comes to getting a mechanic. Compentancy is one thing but experience is something else and the latter is often the most important. I consider myself to be a competant mechanic (haven't had anything blow up in 35 years! Ha!) and I could tell you nearly everything you would want to know about an Oliver tractor plus a few unpublished "secrets". However, bring in a Russian made Belarus and while I'd know the basics, everything else would be a total mystery to me. Familiarity is everything and the smart mechanic continues to ask questions.

53k
11-19-2006, 12:00 PM
quote:Originally posted by John Kirchhoff

53K, a good way to set the ignition timing is to use a timing light to rough it in and then use a vacuum guage to fine tune. With the vacuun advance disconnected adjust the timing until you get the high reading which will probably be up around 18-20 inches. If it pings on the road you can then back if off a bit. ...

Good idea. I was going to put my vacuum gauge on it to see if there might be a valve setting problem, but I couldn't find it. I don't know whether it is buried someplace or whether it got borrowed. I'll probably have to go out and buy one to find it:).

[img=right]http://www.frontiernet.net/~thejohnsons/64%20Daytona%20Convertible/Copy%20of%20DaytonaConvert7-20-06.JPG[/img=right]

Paul Johnson
'53 Commander Starliner (since 1966)
'64 Daytona Wagonaire (original owner)
'64 Daytona Convertible (2006)
Museum R-4 engine

showbizkid
11-19-2006, 12:44 PM
Dumb question :D Where would you connect the vacuum gauge?


[img=left]http://members.cox.net/clarknovak/lark.gif[/img=left]

Clark in San Diego
'63 F2/Lark Standard
http://studeblogger.blogspot.com

N8N
11-19-2006, 01:06 PM
Usually to the power brake fitting on the #7 runner, but you could also use unported vacuum from the carb baseplate if you have it.

nate

--
55 Commander Starlight
http://home.comcast.net/~njnagel

Guido
11-19-2006, 03:14 PM
quote:Originally posted by John Kirchhoff I could tell you nearly everything you would want to know about an Oliver tractor plus a few unpublished "secrets".
John,

You don't have a spare OC-96 crawler hanging around, do you? :D

Gary

http://thumb14.webshots.net/t/53/453/1/21/36/2964121360097493054pVJTFL_th.jpghttp://thumb14.webshots.net/t/57/757/2/88/4/2023288040097493054SEKowB_th.jpghttp://thumb14.webshots.net/t/18/19/8/37/21/2050837210097493054IYBJJL_th.jpghttp://thumb14.webshots.net/t/59/559/1/43/57/2876143570097493054jKVhDw_th.jpghttp://thumb14.webshots.net/t/22/22/0/2/68/2589002680097493054ftBuBw_th.jpghttp://thumb14.webshots.net/t/28/28/8/30/30/2075830300097493054aSSlFv_th.jpghttp://thumb14.webshots.net/t/59/459/2/23/86/2067223860097493054YoeGMx_th.jpghttp://thumb14.webshots.net/t/28/28/5/18/33/2537518330097493054OgEKcN_th.jpg
Guido Salvage - "Where rust is beautiful"

Studebaker horse drawn buggy; 1946 M-16 fire truck; 1948 M-16 grain truck; 1949 2R16A grain truck; 1949 2R17A fire truck; 1950 2R5 pickup; 1952 2R17A grain truck; 1952 Packard 200 4 door; 1955 E-38 grain truck; 1957 3E-40 flatbed; 1961 6E-28 grain truck; 1962 7E-13D 4x4 rack truck; 1962 7E-7 Champ pickup; 1962 GT Hawk 4 speed; 1963 8E-28 flatbed; 1964 Avanti R2 4 speed; 1964 Cruiser and various other "treasures".

Hiding and preserving Studebakers in Richmond, Goochland & Louisa, Va.

John Kirchhoff
11-19-2006, 06:55 PM
No Gary I don't. I do have a friend that loves Olivers and I think he has (or did have) a Cleatrac or two. Seems to me he had one for parts. I'll holler at him and see if he still does.