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rwirtzfeld1
04-23-2006, 05:04 PM
I have a 1963 Studebaker 170 OHV engine. I rebuilt it totally, including a .060 over bore, all new valves and seats, fixed head cracks....etc....

Anyway, I still don't have the power I desire. I have tuned my carb. to near perfect by using a oxygen sensor. I have installed pertronix ignition. I have a new distributor with timing set correctly and vacuum advance working(although I can't tell any power difference with vacuum advance hooked up or detached.) Valves adjusted properly.

With that being said where is my next biggest gain? I read an article about cutting the exhaust header into two halfs and building dual exhausts. I'm not sure in the real world how much power this would produce, however the stock heat riser setup does look restrictive. I would like to know someone who has done this mod. to see if it actually made a noticable horsepower increase?

The only other area I see for improvement may be a different carb.. Does anyone have a non-Studebaker original equipment carb. that performs better than stockers? I have used both a Carter AS and a RBS with the AS being better, but maybe there's still something better?

Thanks,

Randy

Dick Steinkamp
04-23-2006, 09:40 PM
quote:Originally posted by rwirtzfeld1

I have a 1963 Studebaker 170 OHV engine. I rebuilt it totally, including a .060 over bore, all new valves and seats, fixed head cracks....etc....

Anyway, I still don't have the power I desire. I have tuned my carb. to near perfect by using a oxygen sensor. I have installed pertronix ignition. I have a new distributor with timing set correctly and vacuum advance working(although I can't tell any power difference with vacuum advance hooked up or detached.) Valves adjusted properly.

With that being said where is my next biggest gain? I read an article about cutting the exhaust header into two halfs and building dual exhausts. I'm not sure in the real world how much power this would produce, however the stock heat riser setup does look restrictive. I would like to know someone who has done this mod. to see if it actually made a noticable horsepower increase?

The only other area I see for improvement may be a different carb.. Does anyone have a non-Studebaker original equipment carb. that performs better than stockers? I have used both a Carter AS and a RBS with the AS being better, but maybe there's still something better?

Thanks,

Randy




Randy,
You may never get the power out of that OHV 6 that you "want". They really wern't known for their quarter mile times :).

I'm wondering if the aftermarket exhaust and intake systems for a Champion 6 will work on an OHV 6. Anybody know if the port spacing and bolt holes are the same?

One other thought is compression ratio. Increasing this by shaving the head might give the biggest improvement. I don't know, however, when you will get in to interference problems by so doing.



http://thenobot.org/images/s2d/s2d_01.jpg

Roscomacaw
04-23-2006, 11:27 PM
"Anybody know if the port spacing and bolt holes are the same?"

Not even CLOSE!:(


Miscreant at large.

1957 Transtar 1/2ton
1960 Larkvertible V8
1958 Provincial wagon
1953 Commander coupe
1957 President 2-dr
1955 President State
1951 Champion Biz cpe
1963 Daytona project FS

DilloCrafter
04-24-2006, 01:35 AM
Well, you could go back in time just a few years to when the first Larks used the flathead Champion six. Get one of those (someone will probably give you one) and have Bill Cathcart in Connecticutt hop it up for you (or GPO Automotive in Cheyenne, WY who is in the process of doing mine). I have not seen the dyno results yet, but I'm told it was 195 hp while still using a single carburetor. Add another 10-15 hp with the Offy dual intake and Cathcart's hand modified exhaust headers, and you'll be a throwback.

Here's the Cathcart site. The Champion engine looks good in red with black and chrome:
www.cathcartsstudebaker.com


http://rocketdillo.com/studebaker/misc/images/Current_Avacar.gif[/img=left] - DilloCrafter


1955 1/2 Ton Pickup
[i]The Red-Headed Amazon

r1lark
04-24-2006, 12:34 PM
quote:Originally posted by rwirtzfeld1

I have a 1963 Studebaker 170 OHV engine. I rebuilt it totally, including a .060 over bore, all new valves and seats, fixed head cracks....etc....

Anyway, I still don't have the power I desire. I have tuned my carb. to near perfect by using a oxygen sensor. I have installed pertronix ignition. I have a new distributor with timing set correctly and vacuum advance working(although I can't tell any power difference with vacuum advance hooked up or detached.) Valves adjusted properly.
Thanks,
Randy


Randy,

How many miles do you have on the rebuild? The reason I asked, when I put pistons/rings (0.020" over) in my '64 Commander 4-door with OHV engine, it took some miles before it really broke in and freed up.

Did you adjust the valves hot? Hot adjustment has always gotten me an improvement in idling and power over the cold method. And, it is easy on an OHV six and not messy if you cut a spare valve cover up like the shop manual shows.

What body style is this in? (The sliding roof wagons and convertibles are heavier, so that will impact the performance.)

Also, what transmission/rear axle ratio do you have? My '64 has a 3spd/OD with a 4.27:1 ratio rear axle. I chose this r/a ratio to get a good balance of around town and highway performance, and I have been very happy with it. (I started with a 3.73:1 ratio, which might be ok now that the engine is broken in good. Might be fun to do a quick swap to see what that r/a ratio does to the highway performance.....<G>.)

As far as upgrades, I know that a few folks have tried using a small 2-bbl carb (usually the Holley/Weber) with good results. Email me at: r1lark@aol.com (letter 'r', numeral 'one') and I will send you the various links I have on this conversion; I am at work now and they are on my home 'puter. I am going to do this conversion, but won't get to it anytime soon. I hate those RBS carbs; even the NOS one I put on the car was only so-so.

Hope this helps some.......

Paul

Visit The Studebaker Skytop Registry website at: http://hometown.aol.com/r1skytop/myhomepage/index.html

Frank Starr
04-24-2006, 08:13 PM
Have you had the distributor advance curve checked out on a proper distributor machine? Typically, the springs relax over time, so the advance curve isn't really present. When you set timing at idle under these conditions, it's really meaningless, because the distributor isn't going to advance as RPM's go up. Also, if it's a Prestodark unit, check for wear on the advance weight pivot points.

The vacuum advance is there to retard the distributor during part throttle operation, so's to improve gas milage. Nothing to do with power.

Frank Starr
Seattle

rwirtzfeld1
04-24-2006, 08:47 PM
Thanks for all the replies, I will digest the information.

To answer a few of the questions:

I did adjust the valves hot, however I didn't see the tip on the valve cover suggestion, that's a good one. However, I will admit I'm probably not the best at this process, but I think there close. I tryed a few different methods of setting the valves still haven't found one I adore.

I do have just 2 thousand miles on the rebuild, so I like the suggestion that I may still get some ring break-in. My compression is 125 on all cylinders now, which could improve to 140 hopefully, which would help. However, it uses no oil and doesn't smoke.

The distrubutor is new so I think the condition of the springs, weights, ...etc. would be good. I have not hooked it to a "machine", but I have left my timing light on it with the engine running and rev'ed to 4 thousand; mechanical advance changes the correct number of degrees(approx., I have a limited scale on the crank pulley.)Vacuum advance looks to also work. Think I'm good there.


So I'm going to assume that's all somewhat correct, and maybe I'm just not satisfied with the engine at its best. I did mill the head slightly when I rebuilt the engine but it was only to establish head gasket surface, so it was very moderate.

So in regards to performance mods, I think I will try the two barrel carb from stovebolt. Which one could someone recommend, looks like they have two on there website? I like the electric choke option model.Do these two carbs. flow the same and the only difference is the choke? I would call and ask but I'm working long days now, and when I get off work their are closed.

The second mod I'm interested in, is seperating the intake/exhaust manifold and getting rid of the heat riser. Then using the remaining exhaust header to build a dual exhaust. Has anyone done this with a OHV 170, I know its done with the flatheads, but I was hoping someone did it on a OHV and could give me a real-world feel for how much it would help?

Thanks,

Randy

Dick Steinkamp
04-24-2006, 09:33 PM
quote:Originally posted by Frank Starr

The vacuum advance is there to retard the distributor during part throttle operation, so's to improve gas milage. Nothing to do with power.



The vacuum advance retards?

http://www.stevesnovasite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=11689





http://thenobot.org/images/s2d/s2d_01.jpg

cosmo
04-24-2006, 09:39 PM
well i can tell you from first hand experience, that about all the power your gonna get from the ohv.
I have a 63 lark, same sive engine as your. I put a progressive 2 bbl webber, opened the exhaust to 2" from the manifold, straight pipe all the way to the glass pack, pertronixs ignition, 120 amp alt, 5 speed froma chevy s 10.

All that and I probably have 15 maybe 20 horse power net gain. There are no headers for the ohv only custom made and expensive.
Dont get me wrong I've had alot of fun tuning, rebuilding and modifing. But I'm done. Got a 289 sbf, c-4 tranny that I'm putting into it this summer.

I've got some pics of the carb set up and other pics. If your interested let me know.

55sedan
04-25-2006, 09:55 AM
Hey Dillo, do you have a list of what they have done so far to your engine? I will be pulling the 185 out of my Champion this summer and had been looking into Cathcarts info? Just curious how they were able to get the extra 100 hp without yet adding the dual carbs and headers. Thanks.

tstclr
04-25-2006, 10:21 AM
Has anyone hooked a Paxton to one of these engines?
Todd


63 Lark 2dr Sedan

DilloCrafter
04-25-2006, 02:04 PM
55sedan said:

quote:Hey Dillo, do you have a list of what they have done so far to your engine? I will be pulling the 185 out of my Champion this summer and had been looking into Cathcarts info? Just curious how they were able to get the extra 100 hp without yet adding the dual carbs and headers.

Apparently Bill Cathcart doesn't dyno his engines, and he only claims to get up to 145 hp or so. But David Beedle at GPO Automotive Machine Shop did dyno my 185 cu.in. at 195 hp. I'm sure he will gladly tell you what he does to these engines. It includes an Offenhauser cam upgrade, porting and polishing, larger intake valves, and I don't know what all else. Give him a call, he's friendly: (307)638-0920

http://rocketdillo.com/studebaker/misc/images/Current_Avacar.gif[/img=left] - DilloCrafter


1955 1/2 Ton Pickup
[i]The Red-Headed Amazon

Tom B
04-27-2006, 07:59 PM
I have a Holly Webber 5200 from Stovebold on my '60 Lark VI (170 CI flathead). I installed it in hopes of improving mileage, not power. My mileage went from 18.5 with the original rebuilt carb to 24 with the HW. I have noticed a slight drop in power, but I assume that larger jets in both primary and secondary would help with the power. I, too, have The Pertronix ignition. The above mileage was with a standard 3 spd transmission. Since then I have put in an overdrive transmission. Don't know mileage yet.

If you have the option, go for the electric choke, the coolant choke is a bear to plumb neatly.

Tom Bredehoft
'53 Commander Coupe
'60 Lark VI
'05 Legacy Ltd Wagon
All Indiana built cars

whacker
04-27-2006, 09:51 PM
If you really want power, why don't you try something along these lines?

http://www.salt2salt.com/TurboStude/TurboStude.html

Ron Dame
05-18-2006, 05:25 PM
The OHV 6 isn't ever going to do too much for you. Mine just popped the head gasket, and honestly, it wasn't much slower running on 4 cylinders! It's been a bit low on compreession as well ( under 100 psi)but again, it made little difference, than when it was not as worn. It's just under powered.

I have been threatening to finally build my 185 OHV 6, and this may finally convince me to start. Basicaly, it is a flat head 185 crank AND pistons in the OHV block. It's been done before, with decent results, but honestly, a good used 259 or 289 would give you better results for less money. I have the parts, and like odd stuff, so I'm doing it. I also had Ted Harbit grind a cam for a bit more mid range power, as this thing with teh big old 185 crank will never wind up well.

You might see if Ted will gind you a different cam and gain a few horse power.


quote:Originally posted by rwirtzfeld1

I have a 1963 Studebaker 170 OHV engine. I rebuilt it totally, including a .060 over bore, all new valves and seats, fixed head cracks....etc....

Anyway, I still don't have the power I desire. I have tuned my carb. to near perfect by using a oxygen sensor. I have installed pertronix ignition. I have a new distributor with timing set correctly and vacuum advance working(although I can't tell any power difference with vacuum advance hooked up or detached.) Valves adjusted properly.

With that being said where is my next biggest gain? I read an article about cutting the exhaust header into two halfs and building dual exhausts. I'm not sure in the real world how much power this would produce, however the stock heat riser setup does look restrictive. I would like to know someone who has done this mod. to see if it actually made a noticable horsepower increase?

The only other area I see for improvement may be a different carb.. Does anyone have a non-Studebaker original equipment carb. that performs better than stockers? I have used both a Carter AS and a RBS with the AS being better, but maybe there's still something better?

Thanks,

Randy




Ron Dame
'63 Champ

mbstude
05-18-2006, 08:17 PM
Howdy Ron! Haven't heard from you in a while. I've gotten an old dump truck since the last time I talked to you.
Here's some pics: http://www.georgiastudebaker.com/truck.htm

Matthew Burnette, the 16 year old Stude nut.
South Georgia Chapter
63 Daytona HT (project)
51 Stude dump truck (yes, I won the raffle)
52 Commander Starliner (basket case)

MANY more Studes in the family and a few parts cars
http://community.webshots.com/user/mbstude101
And here: http://community.webshots.com/user/mbstudepagetwo
And here too: http://photos.yahoo.com/ph//my_photos

Ron Dame
05-18-2006, 10:05 PM
Hey Matthew!

Yeah, I'm still around, just been lurking. Trying tocome back to life.

I read about the truck! Congrats! Does the dump bed work? do you have a tarp for it? Do you need a test run and see how much I can carry? Wanna come up here and help me haul a bunch of moldy crap out of the basement to the dump? (oops, I may have said too much!)

cya

Ron

[quote]Originally posted by mbstude

Howdy Ron! Haven't heard from you in a while. I've gotten an old dump truck since the last time I talked to you.
Here's some pics: http://www.georgiastudebaker.com/truck.htm

Matthew Burnette, the 16 year old Stude nut.


Ron Dame
'63 Champ

mbstude
05-20-2006, 10:38 AM
Yes, the bed works. We've had 2 tons of wet sand on it, and the load wasn't noticed a bit. The hydraulic cylinder strained slightly when we dumped it, but it did fine. We've also hauled big crates of stone on it and dumped them out. (:D) Here's the pics of that:
http://community.webshots.com/album/549413792lAQHCQ
If I drove it up to your place, I'd be wore out by the time I got there. Big old Stude trucks don't have the smoothest ride. Stephen Cade wants me to drive it down to his place in Florida and move about 10 square yards of dirt. [:0] Sheesh...

Matthew Burnette, the 16 year old Stude nut.
South Georgia Chapter
63 Daytona HT (project)
51 Stude dump truck (yes, I won the raffle)
52 Commander Starliner (basket case)

MANY more Studes in the family and a few parts cars
http://community.webshots.com/user/mbstude101
And here: http://community.webshots.com/user/mbstudepagetwo
And here too: http://photos.yahoo.com/ph//my_photos

Ron Dame
05-20-2006, 05:21 PM
But you are young and strong, I am old and weak ;-p
I also have a wet basement of crap I need to get rid of! I'll feed ya! (and yes I remember how you young whipper-snappers can eat..NO BEER! 'cept for me)




quote:Originally posted by mbstude

Yes, the bed works. We've had 2 tons of wet sand on it, and the load wasn't noticed a bit. The hydraulic cylinder strained slightly when we dumped it, but it did fine. We've also hauled big crates of stone on it and dumped them out. (:D) Here's the pics of that:
http://community.webshots.com/album/549413792lAQHCQ
If I drove it up to your place, I'd be wore out by the time I got there. Big old Stude trucks don't have the smoothest ride. Stephen Cade wants me to drive it down to his place in Florida and move about 10 square yards of dirt. [:0] Sheesh...

Matthew Burnette, the 16 year old Stude nut.
South Georgia Chapter
63 Daytona HT (project)
51 Stude dump truck (yes, I won the raffle)
52 Commander Starliner (basket case)

MANY more Studes in the family and a few parts cars
http://community.webshots.com/user/mbstude101
And here: http://community.webshots.com/user/mbstudepagetwo
And here too: http://photos.yahoo.com/ph//my_photos


Ron Dame
'63 Champ

mbstude
05-20-2006, 08:16 PM
I'd say let's go for it if you still had Buttercup, I'd like to take her for a spin... Man, she's a perdy thang.[:p]

Matthew Burnette, the 16 year old Stude nut.
South Georgia Chapter
63 Daytona HT (project)
51 Stude dump truck (yes, I won the raffle)
52 Commander Starliner (basket case)

MANY more Studes in the family and a few parts cars
http://community.webshots.com/user/mbstude101
And here: http://community.webshots.com/user/mbstudepagetwo
And here too: http://photos.yahoo.com/ph//my_photos

buddymander
05-25-2006, 04:12 AM
My first car was a 60 Lark with a 61 170 and I really liked that motor after I put a two barrel on it I got from my buddy who took it off his 55 ford 272. Doesn't 125#'s of compression sound sorta weak for an OHV? You sure that cam is timed right? Maybe retime it using a compression tester.

rwirtzfeld1
05-29-2006, 12:02 AM
I'm not sure what you mean by re-time it with a compression tester, that's a new one on me. I assume I have the timing set installed correctly, it seems to dial in well with a timing light. I would think if the timing gears where installed incorrectly(a tooth off) I would have much more severe problems than I currently have, but if you could explain more in detail of your suggestion, I would be interested. The compression of 125 is a little low, but those numbers were taken after the rebuild, I have a few miles on it now, I may run another compression check.

As an update, I bought one of the progressive Weber carbs. from Stovebolt, and wow what a difference! That's one slick little two barrel. Nice people to deal with two. I have a slight "buck" when at highway speeds and I mash the throttle, but a little jetting will probably knock that out. (Its currently in stock form). Seeing the difference in power from trying both an RBS and AS carb., I'm amazed how much better this carb. is. Sure has got me to thinking though, were the limitations exist with carbs., as far as, how much carb. you can put a stock 170 OHV (except for being bored .060), and still see improvement.

My next project is to jet the carb. to max. efficiency using an oxygen sensor that's in place from my prior carb. adventures.

Then its on to splitting the intake/exhaust manifold and eliminating the heat riser valve and running dual exhaust.

thanks for the replies

r1lark
05-29-2006, 08:58 AM
quote:Originally posted by rwirtzfeld1

My next project is to jet the carb. to max. efficiency using an oxygen sensor that's in place from my prior carb. adventures.

Randy,

Exactly which carb did you get? I notice that Stovebolt seems to have several different Webers.

Let us know what jetting you finally end up with. I want to do the same carb swap on my '64 Commander.

Paul

Visit The Studebaker Skytop Registry website at: http://hometown.aol.com/r1skytop/myhomepage/index.html

unclemiltie
05-29-2006, 02:00 PM
I have a split manifold for an OHV. I never installed it. I do not have a car with an OHV right now but got it for a future project. I was curious. I can send a picture if you want

Milt

Milt Yoder
SDC Newsletter Judge

rwirtzfeld1
05-29-2006, 09:14 PM
I got the Holley Weber Carb. from Stovebolt, I decided on a new versus the rebuilt, he sells both. I also got the full electric choke, I don't care for the plumbing of the coolant actuated choke. When I get to the final jetting, I will post the jet sizes.

In regards to the split manifold, send me a picture if you don't mind, my email is rwirtzfeld@rushmore.com