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hawkproject
02-22-2006, 02:19 PM
Help...I have a 62 Hawk with a 259. I would like to convert to a Chevy 350 has anyone else done this?

studegary
02-22-2006, 02:58 PM
quote:Originally posted by hawkproject

Help...I have a 62 Hawk with a 259. I would like to convert to a Chevy 350 has anyone else done this?


If you "...have a 62 Hawk with a 259," you either have a very rare export model or a car that has already had an engine change. As far as the 350 change in a '62-'64 Hawk, there have been a lot of them. They show up on eBay fairly frequently. I can't think of anyone on this forum that has a 1962-1964 Gran Turismo Hawk with a Chevrolet engine, but there are several that have earlier C/K bodied cars with a Chevrolet V8 that would be similar to what you are planning on doing. My first basic question is; Why do you want to make this conversion?

hawkproject
02-22-2006, 03:25 PM
Ok let me back up. I think I have a 259 engine and please excuse my ignorance as this is very new to me. This 62 Hawk was purchased from Canada and the lititure I've been able to obtain indicates that this is a 259. The head casting number is 1555294. That said, I was looking for an inexpensive way to replace the engine and transmission and gain horse power, as both are tired. Does replacing the engine devalue the car? I do have the ability to have both reworked.
Thank you

Dick Steinkamp
02-22-2006, 03:42 PM
quote:Originally posted by hawkproject

Help...I have a 62 Hawk with a 259. I would like to convert to a Chevy 350 has anyone else done this?


Go to the top of this page and click on "search". Type in "Chevy". You'll get a lot of info.

(Maybe we should have some sort of FAQ section for this kind of thing. Make it a little easier on the first time visitors)

-Dick-

Dan White
02-22-2006, 04:02 PM
Dick I think you have a good point. This question is starting to be a monthly and sometimes weekly item, especially for those new to Studebakers. We should also include the July 2003 TW writeup by Ted Harbit and Bob Palma defending the Stude V8. It seems like yanking the Stude engine is starting to become the thing to do!

Dan White
64 R1 GT
64 R2 GT

Roscomacaw
02-22-2006, 04:37 PM
[|)]

Miscreant at large.

1957 Transtar 1/2ton
1960 Larkvertible V8
1958 Provincial wagon
1953 Commander coupe
1957 President 2-dr
1955 President State
1951 Champion Biz cpe
1963 Daytona project FS

Dan White
02-22-2006, 05:22 PM
We could just add a Chevybaker forum and be done with it!

Dan White
64 R1 GT
64 R2 GT

prager
02-22-2006, 06:19 PM
Hello all! I kind of side with all parties involved...Sure it would be great to save all of the Stude engines that we can....But as time and budgets go, sometimes the Chevy swap is more of a sensible way to go....Again...Sometimes.. My Lark had the 170 6 cyl. Not my personal fav...I obtained a LT-1 Corvette motor for the car and went with it.. Living in South Bend you would think it to be a sin..but, try to find all of the parts here or anywhere else, and spend less than the usual Chevy swap. Hell, we all know after the plant closed here the motors were all Chevy's anyhow. I just spent the last month in the soon to be torn down portions of the finishing and final assm, and stamping plants. I had the o.k. from the main man at J&L, who is demoing for the city...Pretty neat.. Took lots of photos..I will never forget any of it...These were the buildings that my great grand father, grandfather, and dad..(foundry)were all working in...My Dad is the only one still around.He helps me now and again on my Lark and was revved up so to speak about dropping the Chevy in my Lark...
Sure, if I could have had a fresh rebuilt Stude for the same money and same H.P. that would have been great...But common guys we are not all made of money, and the Chevy S.B. is the most reasonable and most reliable V-8 we can get..I love my Stude and want another as soon as this one is done...P.S. South Bend closed in late Dec. '63...I was born June of 1972... I only wish I could have seen the plant (s) when they were still Stude owned...

studegary
02-22-2006, 06:52 PM
hawkproject - Tell us your engine serial number and we will tell you what your engine started out life as. The engine S/N is a STAMPED number on the top of the engine block at the left (right looking in engine compartment), front (area of water manifold and left head).

I was not trying to infer that changing the engine may not be the best way for you to go. I was just inquiring as to your reason(s). I have owned Studebakers with Studebaker V8s and with Chevrolet V8s (400 and 350).

midnight1957
02-22-2006, 07:41 PM
quote:Originally posted by hawkproject

Help...I have a 62 Hawk with a 259. I would like to convert to a Chevy 350 has anyone else done this?

midnight1957
02-22-2006, 07:43 PM
Hawk project, you have said a dirty word in here about installing a sbc in your hawk. You will catch hell about it and some of them won't even talk to you anymore............ask me how I know

Roscomacaw
02-22-2006, 08:06 PM
prager - all due respects - if you couldn't find "parts", it was because you didn't try. IF you thought they should all be available at Kragen, we could have advised you that it wouldn't be. BUT - to state that parts are "hard to find" for a Studebaker engine is misleading at best.

Midnight, you and bills 57 should get together. We've tried to answer questions here - SBC or not. I'd guess the majority of us DON'T have experience trading powerplants - not because we're ill-mannered, but because we choose to go the "hard way" and stick with the Stude engines. If I'd done an SBC or Hemi swap I'd be more than happy to share my experience. But to dis this whole forum because you didn't get the answers you sought is not fair or curteous.:D

Miscreant at large.

1957 Transtar 1/2ton
1960 Larkvertible V8
1958 Provincial wagon
1953 Commander coupe
1957 President 2-dr
1955 President State
1951 Champion Biz cpe
1963 Daytona project FS

whacker
02-22-2006, 08:13 PM
I do not recomend this engine swap, I like Studes. If you put a pencil to what you have planned, the Stude rebuild will be cheaper and result in a better car. If you really want to do this swap, however, the easy way is to get a 65-66 bellhousing and a Hurst "universal" small block front mount. This will allow you to mount the engine to the Borg-Warner transmission, and will not affect the transmission linkage or the drive shaft geometry. It will require a new throttle linkage (available from Jegs) and a new fuel line (fabricate).

Dick Steinkamp
02-22-2006, 08:23 PM
quote:Originally posted by midnight1957

Hawk project, you have said a dirty word in here about installing a sbc in your hawk. You will catch hell about it and some of them won't even talk to you anymore............ask me how I know


Some folks here only like "bone stock" Studebakers...only ones that are EXACTLY as they were the day they came off the assembly line. Some like the above but painted a different color than original. Some like the all of the above but with a few "safety" upgrades (seat belts, radial tires, maybe disk brakes, maybe a dual master cylinder). Some like all of the above but with a better sound system. Some like all of the above but maybe with a modern overdrive automatic transmission. Some like all of the above but with a different front and/or rear suspension. Some like all of the above but with more comfortable seats, maybe even power windows. Some like all of the above, but with a different engine than it came with stock (maybe replacing a Stude 6 with a Stude V8, maybe even replacing a Stude engine with a different make engine). Some like all of the above but with some major body modifications (chopped top, etc.). Some are more adamant about what they like than others, but guess what...The SDC and this Forum welcomes all of the above. You'll run into folks here that prefer Studes "done" the way they want...that's great. Everyone should have a favorite. You'll find folks here that appear to get a little hostile when someone suggests "doing" a car in a different manner than they would do it. That's probably OK too. Have a beer with one of them at the Omaha meet this year and they may turn in to one of your best Studebaker friends:)

-Dick-
327 powered '54 Starliner (among others)

Swifster
02-22-2006, 08:39 PM
As someone who is using a newer GM powerplant, not all swaps are created equal. If you have the original engine in this car, rebuild what you have. The plain truth is that with rare exceptions, an 'original' car will always be worth more than a modified one.

Now, if the value of the car, and the cost of converting it doesn't bother you, go for it. I'm using a Gen III V-8 which shares nothing with the typical SBC. I have to custom fit everything, even in a Lark bodied car. As the larger Hawks never had SBC installed like the '65-'66 Lark bodied cars did, I can't tell you what's involved.

My opinion is that if you go ahead with the swap, get a 700R4 trans for the extra gas mileage. You'll have to fabricate at least the trans mounts and the driveshaft, but I think you'll find that you'd have to do that anyway, even with a Turbo 350/400.

As mentioned, there is a very vocal majority here in regards to the Stude V-8, and I've pretty much decided my next project will be Stude powered. But most of the bark is worse than the bite ;). Those with knowledge will share, but few here will admit to making the swap [}:)].

For those who need more tolerence than there may seem to be here, also check out Club Hot Rod ( http://www.clubhotrod.com ). Engine swaps there are the norm and not the exception :D.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Tom - Lakeland, FL

1964 Studebaker Daytona

Michigan Speed - www.michiganspeed.com
Club Hot Rod - www.clubhotrod.com
LS1 Tech - www.ls1tech.com

prager
02-22-2006, 09:13 PM
Mr. Biggs... Is Kragen a supplier out in Cali?? they are not here... Yes I could have gone to SASCO..Etc...Did you miss my part of the budget? I talked with many folks here in S.B. who have good re bulidable engines, but for me the new Chevy was still cheaper..I am on a budget, And with that said my Lark is still a Studebaker. Sure the power plant is not, but does that make anything Stude built from 65-66 any different?[?].. As for the purists who won't speak to you over a Hawk engine swap, tell them to belly up...when they pay for the project, they can say what goes...

prager
02-22-2006, 09:16 PM
Also, was "hard to find " in my first post?

prager
02-22-2006, 09:23 PM
Mr. Biggs...I am surely not trying to start anything...I do respect you're opinions, and you have been more than helpful to me and many others..:) My first post was just a way of saying, do what you have to do. Someone else mentioned the purists, or whom ever won't speak to someone who puts a Chevy motor in a Stude...Like I said before..Belly up...If you can't respect anothers project for what it is, leave it alone..If the purists get a look at a mine and don't approve tough...It's my car, my money and my choice...I hope we can all understand that and again..I'm not trying to start trouble..just stating the way it should be..

midnight1957
02-22-2006, 10:26 PM
Mr. Biggs, sorry if you took it that I was being ill manered, rude or whatever, that was not my intentions, I am sure that you understand what I was saying in my post.

I have read and learned a lot from your post, I even like the way you flower up the words. I will continue to look for your post cause I can see that you are very knowledge about Studes and probably one day I will have a question about the Hawk body that you and others will help me out.

Don't take what I said personal, we all have a love for these cars or else we wouldn't own one. It is our purpose on here to help each other out.

sbca96
02-23-2006, 03:00 AM
You can get plenty of power from a Stude engine, and you dont need to
put a blower on it. A 259 is a high revver, so with a good breathing
carb and the right cam, some head work and bigger valves, you could
be embarrasing that sbc in no time. Swaps are NOT cheap to do, some
parts on the Studes are better swapped out, but the engines are very
well made, if you list of the stock internals of a Stude engine, it
starts to sound like a specially built sbc racing engine. Most sbc's
come with CAST cranks ... I find that kinda funny. Nah, my Avanti is
staying Studebaker powered, but GM shifted and Ford stopped.

Tom

1963 Studebaker Avanti (http://hometown.aol.com/sbca96/images/63avanti.jpg), 102,000, custom made brake brackets to mount 1998 Mustang GT 4 wheel disc brakes (soon to get 13" Cobra front brakes, 2003 Mustang Cobra 17" wheels, GM altenator, will be getting : 97 Camaro Z28 tan leather seats, 97 Camaro Z28 T-56 6-speed trans, Ported 'R3' style Avanti heads with stainless full flow valves, 'R3' 276 duration cam w/chrysler solid lifters, shortened push rods, aluminum cam gear, Edelbrock AFB Carb, GM HEI distributor, 8.8mm plug wires, waiting in the garage.

Dan White
02-23-2006, 09:00 AM
I do have a question for those that want to do the SBC thing. I keep hearing you want more HP, what do you plan to do with the car with more HP? Is this just an ego/testosterone thing or are you seriously looking to drag race your Stude with a SBC? I just don't get it. When my wife and I drove our '64 R1 (116,000 miles on the clock) from Woodland CA to Elkton MD we had no problem on the highways 70 to 80 most of the way, and did about 110 in one stretch across South Dakota, even with crap exhaust and a POS Holley carb that I tossed after the trip. If you want more performance you would be better served by dropping a Stude 4bbl manifold on the engine and swaping in a 5 spd manual or a modern OD automatic using one of the kits a couple of the Stude vendors sell. I can understand switching from a 6 to a V8 but the yank a good Stude V8 for more HP is flushing money down the toilet unless you are trying to prove something. It is your ride and your money but a fool and his money are soon parted as the say!

At least if you are going to do a swap try to be unique and dare to be different, Studebaker was a unique mark and it at least deserves more than a belly button power plant.

Dan White
64 R1 GT
64 R2 GT

Roscomacaw
02-23-2006, 11:07 AM
I wasn't trying to convey anger with my post - I just took in comments and interpreted them as inferring that the Studebaker stuff is hard to find. IE: prager's comment: "but, try to find all of the parts here or anywhere else". I apologize to prager for interpreting that as "parts being hard to find" if that wasn't the intent of his words. Parts for Studebaker engines aren't hard to find. Possibly more expensive than J.C.Whitney stuff for Heartbeat of America motors? Sure.
midnight, if someone's gone mute on you, it's probably (as I said) because they either don't know or they don't have a car like yours to refer to. (Hawk vs. Lark or whatever)I hope you stick around and keep us informed on what you do with your car. Surely, there'll be more folks wander into this forum with intentions of cross-dressing their Studee.[:I] Then YOU'LL be the tech-spert that can help them out;)and they'll be happy they came into the fold.

I don't respond to engine swap posts much because I don't have anything to tell from first-hand experience. It would be silly for me to start handing out advice on something I know nothing about. My wife likes to sew - me, I COULD sew a button on if I really wanted to. But she knows she won't have to worry about the maintenance of her car and I can just take her the needy shirt when I want a button put back on.:D

A Stude engine in a Stude car. Sounds like harmony to me. But then, some folks say "Rap Music" as if to insinuate it is something harmonius.[xx(] In a generous mood, I might say it's rhyme set to a drum beat.[:o)] Thank goodness there's other stations on the dial!:) Thank goodness we're all free to do what we want with our personal Studebaker(s);)

Miscreant at large.

1957 Transtar 1/2ton
1960 Larkvertible V8
1958 Provincial wagon
1953 Commander coupe
1957 President 2-dr
1955 President State
1951 Champion Biz cpe
1963 Daytona project FS

Swifster
02-23-2006, 11:19 AM
quote:Originally posted by Dan White

I do have a question for those that want to do the SBC thing. I keep hearing you want more HP, what do you plan to do with the car with more HP? Is this just an ego/testosterone thing or are you seriously looking to drag race your Stude with a SBC? I just don't get it.

Why do people modify '32 Fords or '49 Mercurys? Cars are an expression of the owner. In some cases you have a guy who's been around Chevys his whole life and it's what he knows. In some cases it is for a little weekend racing. In others, it's just a reflection of the owners personality.

In most cases, cars are money pits. Even restored cars, unless they are rare, will rarely bring the amount invested in them. It's the price we all pay in the old car hobby. If 'hawk' rebuilds the 259/289, will he get out of it the amount invested? Probably not. Not to say he'd get the money out of a SBC swap either, but the cost of Chebby parts is considerably less than Stude parts. Where he gets to make up a bit of the difference is when he sells the car. As mentioned an original will always be worth more than a modified car. It just doesn't mean that in either case he'd make money on the 'investment'.

As for my Daytona, I have a vision of what I want my car to be, and it's far from stock. But it's my vision. In the end, it will be more GM than Studebaker. But it'll look nice, drive nice, and when the opportunity comes to take it to the track, it'll perform well too.

I think in some cases those on here tend to over react to the SBC change. It puts a new comer on the board in a defensive position and can scare them away. The problem with that is that when the change is made, those Stude parts that would otherwise find a home in a Stude friendly home may end up in a scrap yard. I'd rather see the change made and the parts sent to those who can use them than to have the stuff scrapped.

By the way 'hawk', if you haven't been scared off the site yet, and you do the swap, I might be interested in the old engine depending on where you're located. Send me a message offline if you're interested.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Tom - Lakeland, FL

1964 Studebaker Daytona

Michigan Speed - www.michiganspeed.com
Club Hot Rod - www.clubhotrod.com
LS1 Tech - www.ls1tech.com

curt
02-23-2006, 01:21 PM
My opinion is the value goes down with an engine change from original. My 1955 V8 is a 289, changed but not to the unknowing eye. The 289 has very adequate power, I can fetch a ticket any place a Chevy powered Studie could. It's what you want and how the pocket book rules, I do not knw which way is cheaper I suspect the Chevy engine, iffin you are doing the labor. I jus see a lot of unforseen problems (popping up )doing the switch.

sbca96
02-24-2006, 03:12 AM
quote:Originally posted by Swifster
In some cases you have a guy who's been around Chevys his whole life and it's what he knows. In some cases it is for a little weekend racing. As for my Daytona, I have a vision of what I want my car to be, and it's far from stock. But it's my vision. In the end, it will be more GM than Studebaker. But it'll look nice, drive nice, and when the opportunity comes to take it to the track, it'll perform well too.

Funny ... I grew up with Studebakers, even dealt with a flat head six
in a '39 Studebaker. Built an R3 inspired 289, which would eat your
average SBC for lunch, damn that was a fun car. Put a 700R4 behind it
after the flight-o-matic wouldnt "fly" anymore. That was the single
most all around improvement I made on that car. The considerably
lower first gear 3.1 compared to 2.4 makes a huge difference. Though
it stayed Stude powered. When I met my wife, she had a Tuned Port
Injection powered 86 IROC. Because of the crappy German designed TPI
that car never ran right. Its a touchy system, and because of that,
I learned about Fuel Injection. Now I have a 93 Camaro Z28, 95 Impala
SS, and am doing an engine swap 94 Formula into a 78 Camaro. I have
not torn into a Studebaker engine in over 15 years now. I am quite
familar now with the LT1, and like the engine, the LS1 is nice, but it
is not proven in longevity. The LT1 is known to get into the 200k
club quite easy. Even with this knowledge .. I would NEVER put a GM
engine into a Studebaker. Why? Because, if you go to the track, and
you win, and then someone asks "what you got in that thing", you pop
the hood and its a LS1/LT1/SBC, they go "oh, figures". If you pop the
hood and its this dinosaur motor they have never seen before, its the
ultimate slap in the face. My built R3 with the TH700R4 was a great
combo, the 276 Cam, and the stainless full flow valves, it would bark
2nd gear with authority at average throttle. Ran smooth, no lope.

Personally I would get a 65 or 66 Daytona, and drop an LS1 or LT1 into
it. That would be OK, since its only "upgrading". I know of someone
who I helped find a 65 Daytona, thats what I suggested to him as well!

Tom

DEEPNHOCK
02-24-2006, 08:01 AM
You like to play with electricity, do you?[:0]
To answer your question without bias, or agenda (but it is an opinion)
A Studebaker engine is a good engine.
A Chevrolet small block engine is a good engine.
Parts to rebuild a Studebaker engine are easily available (sources are listed here and elsewhere).
Rebuilding the Studebaker engine would be easier than engineering a swap.
Swapping a Chevrolet small block engine and trans combo into a Studebaker is not particulary hard, but as with any swap you will need to fabricate the parts needed. No one (as far as I know) makes a swap kit for putting a Chevrolet engine into a Studebaker.
The value of the car will go down if you try to sell the car to a Studebaker buyer that wants a stock Studebaker.
The value of the cay may go up if you try to sell the car to someone who just plain likes your car.
Studebaker types will tend to beat you down on price.
(That's either a law, or genetic.. I am not sure of which;))
People who just like your car will just buy your car.
As with any thread of this type, be prepared to have a lot of smoke blow past your window.
But remember, Those guys are just blowing smoke.
You build your car your way.
Drive it. Love it. Show it off.
Enjoy the ride.
The blowers of smoke will soon find another target.
The friendships you make are what really matters.
Jeff[8D]




quote:Originally posted by hawkproject

Ok let me back up. I think I have a 259 engine and please excuse my ignorance as this is very new to me. This 62 Hawk was purchased from Canada and the lititure I've been able to obtain indicates that this is a 259. The head casting number is 1555294. That said, I was looking for an inexpensive way to replace the engine and transmission and gain horse power, as both are tired. Does replacing the engine devalue the car? I do have the ability to have both reworked.
Thank you