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JBOYLE
02-11-2006, 01:20 PM
I want to change the factory AC setup in my new 63 Avanti to R-134. The old system isn't working so I might as well make the swap during the maintenance/rebuild.

What do I have to change?
What doesn't need to be changed?
I want to keep the system looking as stock as possible, will the AC parts from the usual vendors work with R-134?

Thanks,
John

Laemmle
02-11-2006, 02:25 PM
John,
First what has to be changed? What problems are you experiencing?
Do not make the same mistake I made...converting to 134A. I have had nothing but problems...Freon leaking out...the molecture structure of R-12 and R-134 are quite different..134's molecules are smaller and tend to weep out of all manner of fittings. It has become such a pain in the m-ass that I am going to go back and fit a product called Freeze-12 which is a direct drop in replacement for R-12. A great benefit is that the material will not leak out as 134 does, it also cools like R-12, 134 is nowhere as efficiant and the cooling leaves lots to be desired. Had I known of the exsistance of the Freeze-12 product I would not have gone the 134 route.
FYI, I replaced the compressor and the dryer (desicant does not last forever).
Glad I do not have to worry about the cooling season, am bracing for the "arrival" of 12 inches of snow barreling up the east coast...glad the Stude is under cover.

Swifster
02-11-2006, 09:11 PM
R-134a works fine, but the one thing that will definitely need to be changed for effective cooling is the A/C condenser. You will need to change the fittings used to charge the system, as they are a different size than those used on R-12. Contact Vintage Air http://www.vintageair.com and let them know what you want to do and they will help you with parts selection.

As for leaking systems, this will have nothing to do with the freon used. Like any system in the car, go over the entire system. Old, dried out seals won't seal regardless of what freon is used.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Tom - Lakeland, FL

1964 Studebaker Daytona

JDP
02-11-2006, 09:59 PM
I just use Freeze 12, as cheap as 134A and drops in. Evan Pep Boys sells it now.

Studebaker On The Net http://stude.com
64 GT Hawk
64 R2 4 speed Challenger
63 R2 4 speed GT Hawk
63 Daytona Convert.
53 Street rod

JBOYLE
02-14-2006, 09:34 AM
quote:Originally posted by JDP

I just use Freeze 12, as cheap as 134A and drops in. Evan Pep Boys sells it now.



Hate to sound stupid...but what is Freeze 12?

JDP
02-14-2006, 10:25 AM
Magic R12 replacement:)
http://www.freeze12.com/

Studebaker On The Net http://stude.com
64 GT Hawk
64 R2 4 speed Challenger
63 R2 4 speed GT Hawk
63 Daytona Convert.
53 Street rod

60Lark
02-14-2006, 12:34 PM
Freeze-12 and Hot-Shot are two of the new environmentally safe [?] drop-in replacements for the now obsolete R-12 which according to EPA is a cancer causing carsinogyen [}:)]. Freeze-12 and Hot-Shot are among several others brands that are now being produced. They are true drop-in replacements, meaning that no other system modifications and/or oil conversions are required :). Not so with 134A, which according to the manufacturers should have the original compressor oil replaced with a synthetic Esther oil (which by the way has caused problems with older used compressors) [xx(] When charging a system with any of the new replacement refrigerants (including 134A) the system will normally only be recharged with 80% of the original R-12 capacity, [:0] this is because the new refrigerants are made up of a trinary blend of chemicals with different atmospheric boiling points and compose more volume than R-12. [8)] Also when charging a system with the new blended refrigerants they should go in as a liquid with the compressor not running, to ensure that the correct mixture is introduced into the system, if not the system will not operate efficiently. :( If the system has a leak, the system should only be topped of one time, if it leaks down again the system should be evacuated and then recharged with the complete charge (again as a liquid). The drier should be replaced anytime the system is opened to the atmosphere or when the refrigerant is being converted. ;)

Studebaker Fever
60 Lark
51 Champion
Phil

garyash
02-14-2006, 12:45 PM
How much magic can be involved? Freeze 12 is about 80% R134A (H2FC-CF3) and 20% R142b (CH3CClF2).
(see http://www.freeze12.com/pdf/6030.pdf

Refrigerants are classified by their chemical structure to get the names like R134A (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haloalkane). While the two components are a little different, the fact that Freeze 12 can be 80-90% R134A should make it pretty much like the basic R134A as far as leaks go and refrigeration performance.

I could be missing something, but it sounds like "marketing" to me.

Gary Ash
Dartmouth, MA
'48 M5
'65 Wagonaire Commander
'63 Wagonaire Standard
www.studegarage.com

Swifster
02-14-2006, 12:48 PM
The Freeze 12 pages says that the fittings need to be changed so the sytem would need to be opened too(?).

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Tom - Lakeland, FL

1964 Studebaker Daytona

JDP
02-14-2006, 01:49 PM
The magic is in how well it works. The blend allows the R12 style oil to work with the 80% R134A. I've been using it for 3 years and am on my second case. It seems to cool at least as well as the R12, but cost a lot less. You can buy a "kit" with the charging hose and fitting or buy them one by one. I order from the web site, but I've seen it at my local Pep Boys.

Studebaker On The Net http://stude.com
64 GT Hawk
64 R2 4 speed Challenger
63 R2 4 speed GT Hawk
63 Daytona Convert.
53 Street rod

60Lark
02-14-2006, 02:23 PM
There is very little difference, but as I mentioned earlier According to the manufacturer [?] 134A should only be used with Esther oil, supposedly 134A and fossel based oil are like oil and water. Freeze-12 and other drop-in replacements have the chemical make-up to allow them the ability to mix with fossil based oil (Again according to the manufactures). Most compressor manufacturers are pretty adamant about this when it comes to warranty situations. I have have been doing Refrigeration and Air Conditioning work for 37 years, and to be very honest most of this is a pile of c[#@)p, I believe very little of the speel that we have been fed by the EPA, the equipment manufactures, and the chemical companies that manufacture refrigerant, in my opinion it was a way to market a higher priced product and get the tree huggers off of their back, but they are sticking to the guidelines when warranties apply. I also know for a fact that 134A will work as a drop-in replacement without replaceing the oil. I have done so and know of others that have used 134A on older rigs that the owner could not afford the expense of converting according to the industry standards - they continued to operate for 2 and 3 years after replacing the R-12 with 134A, using the original compressor oil. I have a good friend that is a mechanic for Super Value Foods they have dozens of refrigerated reefers, they have converted all of their rigs to 134A, using the original oil, they have lost only one compressor due to mechanical failure in over ten years.

Studebaker Fever
60 Lark
51 Champion
Phil

MarkC
02-15-2006, 02:36 PM
I called two local automotive A/C shops today and both said they won't work on vehicles where Freeze 12 has been used as it "clogs the filters on their (vacuum) equipment". They also said they both have (and can continue to get) supplies of R12 and that the price of R134a has "tripled" in recent months, making the cost of a conversion more or less equal to simply repairing and recharging with R12. Take this with a grain of salt, considering the source. Your local inquiries may vary.

Actually, it's so damned cold here most of the year that thoughts of air conditioning just don't come up that often, especially in February. (It was 16F when I got to work this morning and the prediction is for 8F tomorrow.)

MarkC, 64 Y8
Working in Spokane, WA

Swifster
02-15-2006, 02:44 PM
For what it's worth, I haven't had any shops complain when I've allowed for $15.00 per lb of 134a. R-12 is usually twice this amount. I'd do some shopping first.

The other thing about the condensor, older R-12 cars used fewer tubes than cars that are equiped with R-134a. That is why the suggestion was made. As also mentioned, the dryer should be replaced when the system is opened for any reason.

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Tom - Lakeland, FL

1964 Studebaker Daytona

60Lark
02-15-2006, 06:43 PM
If anyone is quoting R-134A to be anywhere near the price of R-12 walk away. As Tom said, the cost for R-12 is usually double the cost of 134A, unless he happens to have a stock of R-12 that was purchased prior to the EPA mandate to discontinue manufacturing R-12 and equipment using R-12. Freeze-12 will in NO WAY clog filters in vacume/recovery equipment anymore than R-12 or 134A will, unless the system is extremely contaminated with moisture, acid, metal shavings, etc. which could be a result of improperly performed repairs done previously, by not flushing the system, not replacing the drier, or not properly evacuating the system prior to charging with refrigerant, or a recent compressor failure since the previous repair, creating metal shavings.

Studebaker Fever
60 Lark
51 Champion
Phil