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n/a
02-09-2006, 04:16 PM
I think this stinks. This is a forum to talk about aspects of our Studebaker hobby and believe me, most of us guys LIKE to see a poor forelorn studebaker that needs rescuing for sale!

Many people do not have axcess to the turning wheels free ads, and many of us are not allowed the several month lead time to place an ad in TW if the cars have to be moved now.

Kent Fedor
SDC member, Reed City, Michigan

garyash
02-09-2006, 04:55 PM
The Internet age does bring an increased interest in "instant gratification" and creates a new need. As Kent mentions, the lead time for putting ads in print is very long. In principle, though, anyone here ought to be getting Turning Wheels. Everyone reading/posting is a dues-paying SDC member, right?

Every organization has policies. I guess we see what official policy is on the forum with respect to "for sale" ads. SDC set up the forum, they get to make the rules. There are several other choices:
1. The alt.autos.studebaker newsgroup. If you haven't got a news reader program on your PC, search on Google "Groups" for alt.autos.studebaker. You can read without any other action, but need to sign up to post. It's free, though. Post all the ads you want.
2. Keith Johnson's Swap Page on his site.
http://www.studebakerswap.com/studebaker.shtml
Both "for sale" and "wanted" ads here. Free. No sign-up, either.
3. Ebay. If you put something up for sale there, the audience is certainly bigger. It may take a litle skill or practice to write a good ad and you need to pay Ebay something. It certainly is a true market and you may find a buyer willing to pay a very high price. It works, it's fast.

But, I think we need to be able to "think out loud" on the forum. We should be able to say things like, "I want to buy a 1967 Studebaker Ultramax but I need to get rid of the '55 Stude sedan 4-door sedan sitting in my driveway. If only someone would give it a good home..." After all, this is the place for people to talk about Studebakers they have, cars and trucks they want, and old iron they are thinking about shooting in the head. I think we should have some very interesting discussions about this issue.

Gary Ash
Dartmouth, MA
'48 M5
'65 Wagonaire Commander
'63 Wagonaire Standard
www.studegarage.com

Dan White
02-09-2006, 07:24 PM
I agree. I have some items I was about ready to post that I would like to take to York for the meet there. The TW is too slow to get an ad to move stuff. The other issue is that not everyone is a member of the SDC that comes to this forum. Some folks have been told about it and show up here for various reasons. I see some posts of people that would like to sell a car or truck that belonged to there uncle or grandfather or whomever and have no real desire to be in the club, they just want to find a home for the vehicle. I am not crazy about this "new" rule. I think it is a real mistake.

Dan White
64 R1 GT
64 R2 GT

Roscomacaw
02-09-2006, 07:46 PM
I can see restricting venodrs from laying out their wares here, but the individual with a car or one or two parts that are in his way - what's the harm?

And I have to side with Dan here that we DO have folks who have no desire to own the Stude that Gramps left them and yet care enough to find a good home since Gramps would want that.

I hear and understand the rule OK. I just think we're due the rationale behind it. I'm willing to read it objectively and decide if it has merit or we need to work to change it. :)

Miscreant at large.

1957 Transtar 1/2ton
1960 Larkvertible V8
1958 Provincial wagon
1953 Commander coupe
1957 President 2-dr
1955 President State
1951 Champion Biz cpe
1963 Daytona project FS

rockne10
02-09-2006, 07:48 PM
No, Gary. Not everyone reading and posting is a member of SDC.

I can say that ads I have sent to Turning Wheels via their email address usually appear in as little as three weeks. The advantage of emailing an ad is it can be copied and pasted rather than retyped for publication. And, as has been stated, those ads are available to all non-members via this website, which is entirely paid for by the paid members of SDC, many of whom don't even have access to a computer.

Policy is not stating we can't discuss ads or direct people to reliable sources. It basically says DON'T POST YOUR AD ON THE FORUM!

2R5
02-09-2006, 07:57 PM
Gary , my wife says I "need" to get rid of all 3 of my Studebakers :( Of coarse she always says I never listen to her ;)

52hawk
02-09-2006, 08:23 PM
2R5 ,you're not saying your cars are for sale are you????

Studieous Maximus

2R5
02-09-2006, 08:26 PM
Well lets say , I'm not giving you my wifes number thats for sure ;)

garyash
02-09-2006, 08:33 PM
Well, Brad, I did suspect that not everyone reading and posting here is a paid-up member. My philosophy is that after one reads for a while and finds that there is value in the content, that one OUGHT to be interested in joining up and paying dues. I am constantly amazed by "ding-a-lings" searching for a simple part who won't pony up $27.50 to get a membership and receive Turning Wheels with all of the information and vendor ads. I'm sure any Studebaker owner can save $27.50 a year by looking at the ads, even if they never join a chapter or come to a meet. I understand that some people do not want to be to close to a club. But, my dues and yours do pay for this forum. Maybe that gives all of us some "right" to express an opinion - and a vote - about what can fly on the forum, as opposed to bureaucratic decision making. So, everyone VOTE!

I agree that sending in ads by email has the added advantage of accuracy. I'm sure that computers have improved the quality and cut the lead times of Turning Wheels and every other magazine. About 65% of my chapter (Ocean Bay, Mass. and RI) has an email address. The other 1/3 are not into computers and may never be. Too bad for them, because they could share this forum and manyy other aspects of Studebaker life on line. I do wonder about some of the chapter members who have email addresses but claim to only read their email once a month of so. My stepmother got into computers in her 70s and kept at it for 20 years. We can all learn, so we should help other club members who could be on line.

And, yes, my wife also has some opinions about what lives on the driveway and in the Studegarage. She thinks a GT Hawk would be the correct next acquisition as HER car.

Gary Ash
Dartmouth, MA
'48 M5
'65 Wagonaire Commander
'63 Wagonaire Standard
www.studegarage.com

tstclr
02-09-2006, 08:59 PM
The one disadvantage I see about ads in TW is so far my issue arrives here in Canada 2-3 weeks later than you folks in the U.S. On the web it is an even playing field.
Todd
P.S What about a members only classifieds forum?


63 Lark 2dr Sedan

n/a
02-09-2006, 09:52 PM
Like some of you guys have expanded on, this forum gives people who have an "inherited" stude or trying to save one from the crusher the chance to offer it to a SDC'er to often save it from the crusher or uncertian fate.

Most of these individuals don't even know SDC exists till they see this site and moreover it isn't practical for them to become a member just so they can place a free ad that takes at least a month to appear in TW.

Honestly whoever came up with this "rule" is a type of individual who loves making rules just for the sake of making them and has no concept of reality or what the forum users want. They are trying to make a polite "politically correct" message board of no damn substance.
Kent Fedor
SDC Member, Reed City, Michigan

Swifster
02-09-2006, 10:06 PM
quote:Originally posted by garyash

My philosophy is that after one reads for a while and finds that there is value in the content, that one OUGHT to be interested in joining up and paying dues. I am constantly amazed by "ding-a-lings" searching for a simple part who won't pony up $27.50 to get a membership and receive Turning Wheels with all of the information and vendor ads. I'm sure any Studebaker owner can save $27.50 a year by looking at the ads, even if they never join a chapter or come to a meet.

All I'll say is that the real "ding-a-lings" searching for a simple part can find those vendors without TW by doing a simple internet search. I joined the club to access knowledge. The parts are not that hard to find. Those 'non-club' people that access this site will not pay $27.50 to sell their car. They do come here and give club members the first shot at the car before it goes to Ebay, Auto Trader, or worse, the junk yard.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Tom - Lakeland, FL

Ancient Chinese Proverb: "Injection is nice, but I'd rather be blown!"

1964 Studebaker Daytona - Laguna Blue, Original 4-Spd. Car, Power Steering, Disc Brakes, Bucket Seats, Tinted Glass, Climatizer Ventilation System, AM Radio (136,989 Miles)

sumf
02-10-2006, 01:19 AM
Non-members who start using this site are probably interested in Studebakers and, unless they are real dummys, will soon become SDC members to take advantage of all SDC offers.
A larger club will be able to offer more - economy of scale.

sumf



quote:Originally posted by Swifster


quote:Originally posted by garyash

My philosophy is that after one reads for a while and finds that there is value in the content, that one OUGHT to be interested in joining up and paying dues. I am constantly amazed by "ding-a-lings" searching for a simple part who won't pony up $27.50 to get a membership and receive Turning Wheels with all of the information and vendor ads. I'm sure any Studebaker owner can save $27.50 a year by looking at the ads, even if they never join a chapter or come to a meet.

All I'll say is that the real "ding-a-lings" searching for a simple part can find those vendors without TW by doing a simple internet search. I joined the club to access knowledge. The parts are not that hard to find. Those 'non-club' people that access this site will not pay $27.50 to sell their car. They do come here and give club members the first shot at the car before it goes to Ebay, Auto Trader, or worse, the junk yard.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Tom - Lakeland, FL

Ancient Chinese Proverb: "Injection is nice, but I'd rather be blown!"

1964 Studebaker Daytona - Laguna Blue, Original 4-Spd. Car, Power Steering, Disc Brakes, Bucket Seats, Tinted Glass, Climatizer Ventilation System, AM Radio (136,989 Miles)

Transtar56
02-10-2006, 01:34 AM
Just to stir the pot a little,what do you think of this wagon (and no,I don't own it)
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1957-Studebaker-Wagon-VG-cond-Ratrod-Hotrod-Restore_W0QQitemZ4612127919QQcategoryZ6466

65cruiser
02-10-2006, 07:02 AM
I sent an email to the webmaster, here's part of his reply:

Mark, the real issue at stake here for many is what will happen with Turning Wheels advertising revenue that (along with dues) funds the magazine and website if vendors and members can advertise cars, parts and services for free on the club's own website? Many fear that will decline and make the magazine of less value to the members. To many in the SDC that's akin to cutting off one's nose to spite one's face. Plus, there is concern that the Internet ads give an unfair "advantage" to those without Internet access.
I'm not saying I am in agreement with those concerns but they do raise valid questions. How do we protect the value and legacy of Turning Wheels in the face of the growing trend for "instantaneous marketing" via the Internet? How can make online classifieds and the magazine work in harmony? Those are the issues that need to be thought through, expressed to and debated with your elected SDC representatives that set club policy....and frankly, I see
little good that can come from members arguing about it amongst themselves in public as if they were a lynch mob looking for a rope and someone to hang.

To me, you CANNOT "protect the value and legacy of Turning Wheels in the face of...instantaneous marketing". The internet is here to stay, and whether or not forum members can post for sale items here doesn't really mean much. I think most anyone that posts here on a regular basis is smart enough to know the other places for sale items get posted without having to rely on Turning Wheels. So, that's not going to change. What needs to change is Turning Wheels needs a forum where SDC MEMBERS can post for sale or wanted. If they want to publish those in the magazine, so be it. But you cannot stop progress.

________________________
Mark Anderson
1965 Cruiser
http://home.alltel.net/anderm

http://home.alltel.net/anderm/images/Logo1.jpg

Chris Pile
02-10-2006, 08:40 AM
Would an alternative be for the webmaster be allowed to create a "Studes and Parts For Sale" forum?
Or perhaps now is the time for someone to create "www.studesandpartsforsale.com" ?

larkvi
02-10-2006, 09:21 AM
quote:Originally posted by 65cruiser

I sent an email to the webmaster, here's part of his reply:

Mark, the real issue at stake here for many is what will happen with Turning Wheels advertising revenue that (along with dues) funds the magazine and website if vendors and members can advertise cars, parts and services for free on the club's own website? Many fear that will decline and make the magazine of less value to the members. To many in the SDC that's akin to cutting off one's nose to spite one's face. Plus, there is concern that the Internet ads give an unfair "advantage" to those without Internet access.
I'm not saying I am in agreement with those concerns but they do raise valid questions. How do we protect the value and legacy of Turning Wheels in the face of the growing trend for "instantaneous marketing" via the Internet? How can make online classifieds and the magazine work in harmony? Those are the issues that need to be thought through, expressed to and debated with your elected SDC representatives that set club policy....and frankly, I see
little good that can come from members arguing about it amongst themselves in public as if they were a lynch mob looking for a rope and someone to hang.

To me, you CANNOT "protect the value and legacy of Turning Wheels in the face of...instantaneous marketing". The internet is here to stay, and whether or not forum members can post for sale items here doesn't really mean much. I think most anyone that posts here on a regular basis is smart enough to know the other places for sale items get posted without having to rely on Turning Wheels. So, that's not going to change. What needs to change is Turning Wheels needs a forum where SDC MEMBERS can post for sale or wanted. If they want to publish those in the magazine, so be it. But you cannot stop progress.

________________________
Mark Anderson
1965 Cruiser
http://home.alltel.net/anderm

http://home.alltel.net/anderm/images/Logo1.jpg


Agreed. I suspect freebie ads will soon be a thing of the past, which will generate more revenue for TW. As for elected officials, I don't recall ever having been able to vote for anyone on the national level beyond Zone.

JDP
02-10-2006, 10:22 AM
I agree the horse is already out of the barn on internet marketing. The net effects everything, just look at the impact on flea markets, and brick and mortar stores. % years ago, I could pay my York expenses by picking up bargains at York, then selling to non members on ebay. Now almost every vendor save the "loot" parts for ebay.
The club is just to slow to adjust. I've been trying for years to get them to market SDC memberships on ebay with a fixed price auction. I offered to help at no chatge, but I am Satan to some board members and now am just pushing for "Anyone" to do it and do it right. When I sell a Studebaker, I get perhaps 5000 lookers, no reason a SDC club listing could not snag a few members a week with their ad.

Studebaker On The Net http://stude.com
64 GT Hawk
64 R2 4 speed Challenger
63 R2 4 speed GT Hawk
63 Daytona Convert.
53 Street rod

Scott
02-10-2006, 10:57 AM
What about Studebaker freebies? How does the policy cover that?

r1lark
02-10-2006, 11:26 AM
Originally posted by 65cruiser

I sent an email to the webmaster, here's part of his reply:

Plus, there is concern that the Internet ads give an unfair "advantage" to those without Internet access.

So what?? Getting Turning Wheels via First Class Mail is an advantage too, but I don't see the SDC Board stopping that! Let's face it, if you want to play, you have to pay. If you want first shot at the TW ads, get TW delivered via First Class Mail. If you want a shot at Internet ads, get off your money and get a computer......or go to your library and use the computer there.

Exactly how many [u]are really</u> complaining about this? And do they really buy parts, or just talk about it?

Let's stop catering to the few loud mouth whiners, and making rules that punish the majority because of a few.

I will shut up now.........I feel better now&lt;G&gt;!

Paul

Visit The Studebaker Skytop Registry website at: http://hometown.aol.com/r1skytop/myhomepage/index.html

Studedude
02-10-2006, 01:14 PM
quote:Those are the issues that need to be thought through, expressed to and debated with your elected SDC representatives that set club policyI think some us have been talking to our SDC representatives.

quote:....and frankly, I see
little good that can come from members arguing about it amongst themselves in public as if they were a lynch mob looking for a rope and someone to hang.[/i]
Other than one or two comments that bordered on name calling, which I do not approve of, this discussion appears to me to be far from an "argument" of lynch mob mentality. A nerve has obvously been struck, and we are discussing our feelings about it, and what options may be available to us. I have seen a couple of folks stand up in favor of the policy, and I respect them for that. They didn't present their case in an "argumentative" manner, and I did not see anybody demean them for expressing their view.

I guess, since I accept my share of responsibility for keeping this discussion alive, I must say that I do not want to see anybody "hung," and certainly not the web master. I DO, however, think we are within our right (responsibility) as SDC members to discuss and ask questions about things that affect us as SDC members. I also believe, (and based on the response of many of my peers, it appears that I am not mistaken,) that this is as good a place as any to do so.

Challange the policy if you don't agree with it, defend it if you agree with it, stay out of it if you want, but don't attack the individual, or sink to the level of resorting to name-calling. We are all members of this organization, and therefore want the best for it. We will, from time to time disagree on what that may be. Sometimes, following debate and discussion, we might have to agree to disagree, and move on.

Dave's Place
Studebaker Emporium
www.davesplaceinc.com

studegary
02-10-2006, 02:22 PM
quote:Originally posted by larkvi
As for elected officials, I don't recall ever having been able to vote for anyone on the national level beyond Zone.


Every two years you get to vote for a Director. The ten Directors run the corporation, elect the Officers, make appointments, hire paid staff, etc.

Swifster
02-10-2006, 03:33 PM
The board of directors is obviously short sited. I wish they would realize is 2006 and not 1966. The forum and the website are just a small dot in regards to what it could really be. If the board is worried about TW ad revenue, they should also market ad space on this forum to the vendors, who by the way, allow purchases on the internet.

As a magazine, I like TW, but if the club is primarily a subscription and nothing more, it's not worth the $27.50. Clubs are people, cars and resources. And it appears the club is a subscription service and club store selling what other clubs give with the cost of the membership. I guess if I continue to pay the membership long enough to vote for someone in my area, I'll have to check to see how old they are and if they own a computer and have internet access.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Tom - Lakeland, FL

Ancient Chinese Proverb: "Injection is nice, but I'd rather be blown!"

1964 Studebaker Daytona - Laguna Blue, Original 4-Spd. Car, Power Steering, Disc Brakes, Bucket Seats, Tinted Glass, Climatizer Ventilation System, AM Radio (136,989 Miles)

studegary
02-10-2006, 04:14 PM
[quote]Originally posted by Swifster
I guess if I continue to pay the membership long enough to vote for someone in my area, I'll have to check to see how old they are and if they own a computer and have internet access.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Tom - Lakeland, FL

quote]

Tom - When I was last on the SDC Board, about nine months ago, ALL SDC Directors were online. Much SDC Board discussion and business is handled online. I received as many as 30 SDC/Studebaker e-mails a day. If you look in the back of Turning Wheels, you will see the e-mail addresses of the current SDC Board members.

Elections in SDC are being currently held. Refer to pages 20-21 of the February Turning Wheels. If your legal residence is now Florida, there is a three way race for Director in your Zone. Their ages vary, but all three use e-mail. I think that it is admirable that three people have stepped up to run for this volunteer position in your Zone. I have one that I would prefer to see elected, but I won't let that choice be known here.

Swifster
02-10-2006, 04:22 PM
Gary, I won't see a February TW until March (after it goes to Detroit via 4th class). Is this something that's in January's edition (that I brought with me)? I have no problem asking each a good question or two to determine my vote.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Tom - Lakeland, FL

Ancient Chinese Proverb: "Injection is nice, but I'd rather be blown!"

1964 Studebaker Daytona - Laguna Blue, Original 4-Spd. Car, Power Steering, Disc Brakes, Bucket Seats, Tinted Glass, Climatizer Ventilation System, AM Radio (136,989 Miles)

60Lark
02-10-2006, 08:23 PM
TW also has the Stude-Freebees category in the classifieds. Is the SDC board going to be short sited enough to forbid the members of this forum from offering items for free or trade, because it give those of us using the forum an "unfair advatage" over those that are not in the 21st century [?] Just curious.

Studebaker Fever
60 Lark
51 Champion
Phil

studegary
02-11-2006, 12:55 PM
quote:Originally posted by Swifster

Gary, I won't see a February TW until March (after it goes to Detroit via 4th class). Is this something that's in January's edition (that I brought with me)? I have no problem asking each a good question or two to determine my vote.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Tom - Lakeland, FL




Tom - The ballots are also on page 56 of the January 2006 issue of Turning Wheels. The deadline for MAIL RECEIPT of ballots is April 1.

Swifster
02-11-2006, 07:54 PM
Well, that was easy. I completed the ballot and sent it out. Heck, I didn't even have to do any research...:D.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Tom - Lakeland, FL

1964 Studebaker Daytona

Laemmle
02-11-2006, 09:24 PM
Your "elected" board is much the same as your "elected" "officials" down on the beltway..a politician is a politician...the only difference is that our "elected officials" in DC do a heck of a job feeding from the public trough! And that trough has nothing to do with an Avanti!

Dick Steinkamp
02-12-2006, 09:46 AM
quote:Originally posted by Laemmle

Your "elected" board is much the same as your "elected" "officials" down on the beltway..a politician is a politician...the only difference is that our "elected officials" in DC do a heck of a job feeding from the public trough! And that trough has nothing to do with an Avanti!


Laemie, I think you're a little off base here. The SDC is a car club...not the federal government. It's here so that you and I can enjoy a hobby. The "Officials" are hardly Washington politicians. They give up a lot of their time so that we can have a little fun with Studebakers. Do you know any board members? Are you speaking from experience?

-Dick-

Laemmle
02-12-2006, 12:25 PM
Dick,
I have lived long enough to realize that when individuals assume positions of power, or hold dominion or sway over others often common sense takes a back seat. My post was written tongue in cheek, don't you think I know the difference between the cretins that govern in DC to our SDC board? When I read pronouncement(s) about posting for sale items within the context of this forum, and those statements run counter to plain common sense then my thoughts run to the idiocy of statements that eminate from the "beltway".
This is a forum concerning automobiles, specifically Studebaker automobiles, and as such I can see no reason (board statements notwithstanding) why these specific automobiles and or their associated parts can not be listed here.

Dick Steinkamp
02-12-2006, 06:55 PM
quote:Originally posted by Laemmle

Dick,

This is a forum concerning automobiles, specifically Studebaker automobiles, and as such I can see no reason (board statements notwithstanding) why these specific automobiles and or their associated parts can not be listed here.



We're in agreement there, buddy :)

-Dick-

Studedude
02-12-2006, 08:32 PM
quote:Laemie, I think you're a little off base here. The SDC is a car club...not the federal government. It's here so that you and I can enjoy a hobby. The "Officials" are hardly Washington politicians. They give up a lot of their time so that we can have a little fun with Studebakers. Do you know any board members? Are you speaking from experience? I agree, Dick. The Webmaster should be applauded for his efforts, as should each and every board member. We are talking largely about volunteers here, for the most part. Volunteers could always choose to do something else with their time, but generally spend that time doing something they really care about. I don't know if Bob is compensated for his efforts or not, and it doesn't matter to me if he is or isn’t. It has to be difficult, at best, to deal with a situation as spread-out as the SDC board, both geographically and time-wise, as formal board meetings go.

I plead guilty to having my fair share to do with this discussion, and I offer no apologies along that line. I’m sure some folks wish it to go away, but as I have stated before, I think it deserves some visitation, right here and right now.

It has been indicated that this is a board directive, yet a board member has told me that it was not. I don’t question the veracity of folks with either understanding. While by-laws and other mandates are spelled out, and quite clear, other day-to-day “policies” have to be determined day-to-day, and memory about how some of them came into being can become clouded.

It has to be like shooting at a moving target. Things happen, things change, and somebody has to make an effort to ensure that things are on track, according to their best understanding.

I do have the pleasure of knowing some board members, both past and present… and I don’t think any of them are, “politicians,” or, “politician like.” Having been in many supervisory roles in my life, I am very familiar with the attitude of those being supervised towards their supervisors, as well as those being managed by managers, and directed by directors. I have good reason to know that those in positions of responsibility are interested in being responsible, and do the best they can to be so.

Our directors, as I understand it, do not formally meet “face-to-face” but once a year. Therefore, obviously, (relatively) minor “policies” such as the one currently being discussed must be addressed as needed, as issues arise. In the mean time, Bob must determine, to the best of his ability, what a group of individuals that he answers to want, or intend. He may be dead-on, and he may not, he may agree, and he may not, but he does the best he can do. Likewise, board members are now and then caught off guard by issues that they did not have reason to know existed.

I have to admit, as an SDC member, I don’t much like being, “directed.” Although I understand the concept, I think the membership should determine what direction the club should go, and the directors should direct it that way. Not liking to be directed, I perhaps took this recent issue too seriously. I felt as though I was (we were) told to, “Sit down, and shut up,” and as is apparent, I don’t take such direction well, at all. That may not have been the intent, but that is how it struck me.

If I feel bad, it is because some really good folks that are doing a really good job have been placed into the position of facing criticism they do not deserve. Let’s give them some space, time, and room to get back to us with an answer. In the mean time, let’s give them something to work with… our opinions about the “issue.” But, let’s do that without demeaning anybody, as a person. If we want something changed, let's present our desires for change, without "slamming" somebody else.

My take is, I don’t see posting a link to a web site as being Spam, or adve

Dick Steinkamp
02-12-2006, 09:02 PM
quote:Originally posted by Studedude

What % impact do you think linking a post to a car (or part(s) for sale on the SDC forum might actually have in relation to Turning Wheels’ classified ad revenue?

This time, I'll start:

0%



I think you're wrong, Dave. I believe that a strong SDC forum that includes the ability to share parts and cars will be a big factor in the membership growth of the SDC. Once "hooked" here by the amount of Studebakers and parts that are available, information to get and keep that Studebaker running, and bonifide experts in every aspect of the car and the hobby, Forum newbies will quickly become SDC newbies (then experts in their own right). A growing SDC will result in more vendors, more cars and parts changing hands, and a GROWTH of advertising revenue for TW. IMHO the impact isn't zero or negetive...it's positive.

-Dick-

Studedude
02-12-2006, 09:24 PM
quote:IMHO the impact isn't zero or negetive...it's positive. Ouch! Help me re-write the poll question, Dick!

Dave's Place
Studebaker Emporium
www.davesplaceinc.com

Studedude
02-12-2006, 09:53 PM
quote:Originally posted by Studedude


quote:IMHO the impact isn't zero or negetive...it's positive. Ouch! Help me re-write the poll question, Dick!
Never mind, think I've got it.

How much impact do you think such activity actually has on Turning Wheels advertising revenue?

-20%?
-10%?
-1%?
+-0%?
+1%?
+10%?
+20%?

Boy, this is a hard crowd to play to! (My answer stays the same.) :D


Dave's Place
Studebaker Emporium
www.davesplaceinc.com

Dick Steinkamp
02-12-2006, 10:05 PM
quote:Originally posted by Studedude



Boy, this is a hard crowd to play to! (


Hey, if we were an easy crowd, we'd all be driving Toyotas :D

+10%

-Dick-

Studedude
02-12-2006, 10:11 PM
quote:Hey, if we were an easy crowd, we'd all be driving Toyotas :D
See what I mean? [8D]

Dave's Place
Studebaker Emporium
www.davesplaceinc.com

65cruiser
02-13-2006, 06:40 AM
First, let me say that I think Bob does a fine job moderating this forum. Bob and I have bantered several emails back and forth over this "policy" and I finally decided just to let it lie--it was going nowhere. But the more I think about this and read Bob's responses to my questions--it makes no sense. Bob said:

There's nothing in there (the policy) that prevents you from posting a link to a particular car for sale that you don't own...like an ebay car you've run across and you want opinions on. THE POLICY ONLY ASKS THAT YOU NOT USE THE FORUM AS A MEANS TO SELL YOUR OWN STUFF. Buy a doggone TW ad for that.

Okay then, so what's to stop someone from emailing me and saying "here's a car I've got for sale", then I put the link up here?[}:)]

Nothing I'd say.

________________________
Mark Anderson
1965 Cruiser
http://home.alltel.net/anderm

http://home.alltel.net/anderm/images/Logo1.jpg

52hawk
02-13-2006, 08:22 AM
+ 10% Just think how many times a newbie comes on this forum,and is quickly led to the 'join SDC page' or how often a newbie is told TW alone is worth the $27.50 annual. Or "see vendors ads in Turning wheels" aye, and a big 10% !!!!

Studieous Maximus

n/a
02-13-2006, 10:32 AM
I can see limiting professional spammers or full time venders, but I honestly don't see that there was a problem for them to implement a ban on all posts.

From what I've seen and from talking to Ann Unger awhile back, Most of the single stude for sale and wanted ads in TW are "freebies". She did comment saying that the flocks and parts ads are mostly paid ads, but I don't see many of those ads here. My opinion is that placing a TW ad draws a different crowd then the internet gurus. I can sell most any stude part I have easier and quicker by posting on the NG or unoficial page then placing an ad in TW.

Given my reasons above I'd say posting for sale stuff here maybe cuts TW advertising by 1 or 2 %. Its not like if a person selling a stude only has here or TW to place an ad.

Kent Fedor
SDC Member, Reed City, Michigan

Skip Lackie
02-13-2006, 10:46 AM
Two sorta separate points:
First, as a resident of DC, I probably have a lower opinion of politicians than any of you do. Members of Congress occupy positions that provide great prestige, enormous ego gratification, and an incredible array of perks and other benefits[:p] without requiring them to "work" more than about 100 days a year. I got elected to the SDC board about a year ago, and so far, I have yet to uncover any benefits.[xx(]

Second, the debate about advertising on the SDC Website is not really about the income that the ads provide to TW. The real issue is that the board doesn't want to do anything that will reduce the timeliness, usefulness, or quality of the material in TW. A very significant percentage of our membership does not regularly peruse the SDC forum; in fact, for many members, TW is their ONLY contact with SDC. This may be partly a generational issue, but it can also be the result of their job or family situation or personal preferences. We all make choices every day about how to spend our free time -- some would rather not (or cannot) spend it in front of a computer. To the extent that the issue is age-based, it will change, so any decision the board makes must recognize that the policy may have to be revised in the future. But we all pay the same dues, and the rights and interests of those who do not choose to express their views on the Forum are just as important as those (presumably more active) members who do.

No one knows the degree to which the Web (including eBay) has affected the number of ads in TW, but we probably all agree on which way the curve is trending. Certainly it is affecting the attendance at the large, multi-make old-car flea markets like the ones at Carlisle, Pa. That said, it is also likely that many of the Studebaker vehicles and parts being offered for sale on the Web probably would not have been listed in TW anyway. And (as JDP has pointed out) sales to non-SDC members tend to increase membership, as most new owners find TW to be worth the $27.50 a year, even if they don't participate in SDC events any other way.

Bob Shaw was doing nothing more than enforcing an existing rule and cannot be faulted for doing so. In fact, I think his approach was both intelligent and carefully crafted. I must admit that I was unaware of the rule, and other board members may be in the same predicament. But I also think that it probably made sense when it was written -- it's just that it may be time to revise it.

I am only one member of the board, but I wouldn't want to prohibit the usual give-and-take about parts and vehicles for sale that are one of the staples of the Forum, and I don't think Bob was trying to do that, either. I also have no personal heartburn with references and links to vehicles that are being offered for sale elsewhere on the Web -- no matter who posts them. But crafting language that would permit those kinds of postings while still preventing the Forum from becoming a kind of a no-cost eBay for Stude nuts (and thereby eroding the content of TW) will be difficult. Much will be left to the judgment of the moderator (which proably won't make his job any easier!:().

The board will shortly be voting on a new policy WRT advertising in this Forum. I encourage all members to make their views on this matter known to your board member, and the President and VP as well, if you're so inclined. Reading the postings here has been both enlightening and useful for me and presumably for other board members as well. But nothing beats direct input. And if you are dissatisfied with your board member's response, then either vote someone else into office or (better yet) run for the board yourself.

Skip Lackie
Board member, Atlantic Zone

54 3R6 pickup
59 4E40 flatbed
64 Daytona hardtop
74 Avanti II
plus coupla parts vehicles

Swifster
02-13-2006, 11:30 AM
Skip, this just goes to what I've said for the past few months. This site needs to be updated to take advantage of other revenues to offset what is a dying medium. The TW magazine is nice, but there is nothing in it that I can not find on the internet as far as resources, and just about every vendor that uses TW has a website.

I paid my membership dues for the people and club atmospher. If this club is more about TW than anything else, I can save $27.50 a year. 'For Sale' ads that have been listed here will not find there way into TW, but into other websites that don't prohibit or charge for there inclusion. And references to cars listed on Ebay would never have been in TW either. Attempts to limit any of the 'ads' limits what any member will see or be exposed to, not increase it.

In the past, I've posted links to other sites as examples of forums that thrive and make money from the sale of advertising of different vendors. I've had one webmaster offer assistance if the club made a change (he noticed all the traffic coming from this site). The same could be done here. Would this hurt the advertising revenue in TW? Only from the perspective that it would force TW to give members free ads all the time instead of once a year. I doubt that most vendors would pull advertising out of the magazine because of the fact many members are not computer literate and still do their business the old fashion way. And revenue (and memberships) could be increased by charging for internet forum advertising and making reference materials only available to paid members.

Again, this isn't 1966, it's 2006. Technology can't be stopped or ignored. I think the board needs to embrace what this forum could really be and dive in with both feet. Newer members are younger and are having the cars passed down to them. And they use the internet.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Tom - Lakeland, FL

1964 Studebaker Daytona

Scott
02-13-2006, 11:53 AM
It's interesting that when I took the same general attitude to the website at the museum (i.e this is the 21st century and they should be utilizing the web to its fullest), I was blasted big time by Swifster.

JBOYLE
02-13-2006, 12:32 PM
quote:Originally posted by Skip Lackie


I am only one member of the board, but I wouldn't want to prohibit the usual give-and-take about parts and vehicles for sale that are one of the staples of the Forum, and I don't think Bob was trying to do that, either. I also have no personal heartburn with references and links to vehicles that are being offered for sale elsewhere on the Web -- no matter who posts them. But crafting language that would permit those kinds of postings while still preventing the Forum from becoming a kind of a no-cost eBay for Stude nuts (and thereby eroding the content of TW) will be difficult. Much will be left to the judgment of the moderator (which proably won't make his job any easier!:().

Skip Lackie
Board member, Atlantic Zone


I posted the item about the 55 President for sale at a high-end classic car dealer that few SDC members would normally look at. I wasn't trying to sell the car but I thought SDC members might be interested in seeing it. Who knows, it may have been a former SDC car that someone remembers...and it's fun to see what prices cars are being offered for outside the normal club venues.

Also, I'd really hate to see the "Save this Stude..." posts go away. If someone knows about a car under dire threat this is a good place to let folks know about it in a timely manner. If all the unrestored cars go to the crusher this club, as we know it, is doomed. After all, Studes aren't like Mustangs or 57 Chevys where you can build one with a catalog and a VISA card.

Sure, let's keep out the obvious commercials but let's keep an active dialog going even if some posts look like ads.

Swifster
02-13-2006, 01:15 PM
quote:Originally posted by Scott

It's interesting that when I took the same general attitude to the website at the museum (i.e this is the 21st century and they should be utilizing the web to its fullest), I was blasted big time by Swifster.


Scott, what I suggested with the museum was that a little patience was in order. The work to get the museum items moved and the doors opened would take presidence over updating the website, not that updating the website didn't need to be done. I would still stand by that. And obviously since then, the museum did update their website. Now if the SDC would just do the same.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Tom - Lakeland, FL

1964 Studebaker Daytona

larkvi
02-13-2006, 02:57 PM
quote:Originally posted by studegary


quote:Originally posted by larkvi
As for elected officials, I don't recall ever having been able to vote for anyone on the national level beyond Zone.


Every two years you get to vote for a Director. The ten Directors run the corporation, elect the Officers, make appointments, hire paid staff, etc.


Directors are at the Zone level. IMO we should be able to directly elect the Officers. But that's just me; I'm probably drifting OT.

Scott
02-13-2006, 04:15 PM
Well, patience did pay off Tom, and the new website at the museum is vastly better than the old one. I knew they could do it. I'm not always impatient, but for some reason that whole thing really bugged me. I was so excited about the new museum, I got disgusted after being let down so many times when I went to the site to see new and up-to-date pictures of the building progress. That wasn't done too well.

Actually, I've been pretty happy with the design and function of this site, but considering the topic of keeping up to date and also the issue of ads, I would agree that it's time to take a new look at the SDC site and see where it can be improved.

In regards, to ads on the site, I don't think it's a bad idea if it can be successfully managed. One thing I like about the printed ads in Turning Wheels is that it's a bit easier to look at old ads for information and amusement than it would be if they were online, since when old ads are deleted online, that's pretty much the end of their existence. The other thing I like about the printed ads is that some (maybe most?) of them are not posted anywhere online and so there might be a good deal there waiting to be found that might be overlooked by others. Who knows?

CKOT
02-13-2006, 04:30 PM
I belong to a motocycle club with a similiar forum site. They have specified a specific section for classifieds only. Take a peek if anyone is interested. Seems like a nice compromise to keep "for sale" items out of general discussion or technical areas, but still accessible to those interested looking into them. As a note, it has not become an advertising medium, just another resource for those enthusiasts interested in these bikes (Honda Valkyrie)
http://www.valkyrie-owners.com/forums/index.php

studegary
02-13-2006, 04:48 PM
quote:Originally posted by larkvi


quote:Originally posted by studegary


quote:Originally posted by larkvi
As for elected officials, I don't recall ever having been able to vote for anyone on the national level beyond Zone.


Every two years you get to vote for a Director. The ten Directors run the corporation, elect the Officers, make appointments, hire paid staff, etc.


Directors are at the Zone level. IMO we should be able to directly elect the Officers. But that's just me; I'm probably drifting OT.



I do not agree with your statement that "Directors are at the Zone level." Directors represent the SDC members of a Zone (like a Senator represents a geographic area and is elected by the voters of that area), but the Directors are responsible for running the international corporation. They are corporate directors, like for any other corporation. In any corporation that I hold stock in, the stockholders elect the directors and the directors select the Officers that run the corporation's day to day business. By New York State (where SDC is incorporated) not for profit corporate law, the directors are responsible for the corporation. SDC is run in conformance with corporate law and is similar to a republic or the US electoral college where people don't elect their president directly. SDC does not have much latitude in the way that it operates, in this respect, due to the restraints of corporate law. Within the past couple of years, the correct operation of SDC, Inc. was investigated by lawyers, both within SDC and outside paid consultants. Some changes were implemented that brought SDC,Inc. into full compliance.

curt
02-13-2006, 07:04 PM
We can always go to http://www.classicar.com They have a studebaker location for chat. I find the no add policy difficult to understand. I bet is new members will come from the internet generation and not the grey headed generation I'm in.

stude53
02-13-2006, 07:32 PM
Let's get back on topic.

No appreciable detraction from Turning Wheels. Perhaps it even encourages Forum readers to also inspect what is available in Turning Wheels classifieds, either online or in print.

My opinion is that the references and pictures I have seen on this web forum on Studebakers or parts that are for sale elsewhere just increases my interest in Studes in general. It makes me hungry for more, and I frequently go back and reread articles and look at ads in Turning Wheels on model years and types that catch my attention.

My personal Stude is a modified 1953 Starliner model. Through the forums influence, I have now got a desire to own and restore a Studebaker wagon. And probably will, when I find one I can afford. So the more sources I can find for cars and parts, the better.

I will forward a copy of this to my SDC reps, along with an admonition to "expand, don't restrict" sources that influence more people to be Stude lovers.

Regards,
Bob (stude53)

JDP
02-13-2006, 07:39 PM
Slow down a bit, the policy is under reveiw, no need to discuss going anywhere. :) Evan if private ad's were banned, I'd still hang out here and look for my parts and cars elsewhere. Besides, it's only a matter of time until change will come as the Net grows.

Studebaker On The Net http://stude.com
64 GT Hawk
64 R2 4 speed Challenger
63 R2 4 speed GT Hawk
63 Daytona Convert.
53 Street rod

Commander51
02-14-2006, 06:03 AM
If JDP is correct and the subject is 'in play', I'd like to put in 2 cents' worth and suggest that we split out the forums into more than two headings. I often enjoy reading topics that have no immediate interest for me, but if there were more headings I could get the more relevant stuff in the limited time I have...:)

51 Commander State Sedan

Kittanning, PA

Kdancy
02-14-2006, 06:16 AM
When this site first started, I asked about having a Classified add forum and received the same response about how it would affect TW. I just don't buy it. Personally I would rather see all the adds in a classified section, that way everything is organized and with a quick look you can see what is on the market. I like the reguler forums for just what they are, stude discussion and tech issues. This helps prevent any one vendor from just using the regular Stude forum for his or her personal selling shop. We need vendors to keep this expensive "hobby" alive (see Purple Hawk), just open up a Classified adds forum for all of them to have the option to participate in. Figure out a way to identify a "vendor" from just some one having a spare car or parts that want to sell them. There is a place for this, we just need to step into the 21st century.

53commander HDTP
53 Champion HDTP
61 Cursed Purple Hawk
64 Champ long bed V8
64 GT

CKOT
02-14-2006, 12:26 PM
hence my suggesstion to look at the link I mentioned earlier in this string. Other clubs seem to manage with a seperate section, for all the right reasons...eficiency, move to the electronic age, etc. I believe their guidelines are that it is not for vendors, but rather for what everyone here is asking for, a place to put an item or two from private parties, etc.