PDA

View Full Version : Champ overdrive



LarryC
01-31-2006, 11:57 PM
I have a 215 V8 Buick and 50 Champ three speed overdrive in my car, it really makes a nice combination. However, I have eliminated the kick down switch and the O.D. relay, the car is now 12 volt. I am told the O.D. will still work with a switch and of course I have re-done the cable set up. I have tried various combinations and still can't get the tranny in O.D. Anyone had any experience? thanks in advance.

gordr
02-01-2006, 03:38 AM
A 215 Buick V8, Larry?

Now that's an INTERESTING choice of engine swap! Sure not your garden-variety 350 Chebby crate motor.

Are you running the Champion T96 tranny? I'd be a little concerned about its longevity if that is the case. As I mentioned in another thread, I put a T96 behind a 283 engine, and it blowed up real good[}:)]

I'm not sure exactly what you have there, electrically speaking. Do you still have the six-volt solenoid? I'm sure that it would "work" on 12 volts, but I believe there is a real risk of it burning out due to over-current.

Have you also bypassed the governor and the reverse lockout switch? The governor sends a ground signal to the relay via the reverse lockout switch (if present). That ground signal energizes the relay, and causes the solenoid to operate.

IMPORTANT: are you certain that the lockout handle is pushed all the IN, and that the lever on the tranny end of that cable is right back against its stop with the lockout handle pushed in? I once spent fruitless HOURS trying to troubleshoot an overdrive, and finally found that the lockout lever was a tad short of being on the stop. The system doesn't permit much wiggle room on THAT adjustment.

With that out of the way, if you energize the solenoid, it should drop into overdrive IF your foot is off the throttle. The mechanism cannot throw the shift (either way) if there is a torque load on the driveline. That is why the kickdown switch includes a pair of contacts to ground out the ignition...to provide a momentary slackoff of driveline torque. BTW, if you have a six-volt solenoid, it has two terminals. One feeds juice to the windings, and a "hot" wire tapped on it should make the solenoid click loudly. The other should be open-circuit with the solenoid un-energized, and goes to ground with the solenoid energized. Its role is to provide the path to ground for the ignition-kill function of the kickdown switch. It would be the former of these two that you want to connect to your manual OD switch.

If you were to get a 12 volt solenoid from a '58 or later Stude overdrive, that would bolt right in there in place of your current one, and they don't require a relay to work in the stock configuration, and would work with a manual switch OK, too. I'd recommend that you change to a 12 volt solenoid. A voltage-dropping resistor to the 6 volt solenoid may not be satisfactory, as the solenoid contains two windings; a high-current one to make it act fast, and a low-current one to hold it engaged. The high-current winding is switched out of the circuit by the solenoid plunger when the overdrive engages (this happens inside the solenoid). A dropping resistor sized correctly to give you an effective 6 volts on the low-current winding won't pass enough juice for the high-current winding to do it's thing. You'd get slow or no engagement. And a resistor sized correctly to provide 6 volts for the high-current winding won't provide sufficient voltage reduction for the low-current winding to ensure it won't burn out. Sounds like Catch-22, but it's just Ohm's Law at work[8D]

If you can post more details of how you have the OD presently wired, maybe a solution wil suggest itself.

BTW, what car is this setup in? FWIW, I have in my yard an old Datsun 510 sedan with a 215 Olds F85 engine stuffed in it. Belongs to a friend of mine. Its awaiting a 5 speed tranny transplant. Currently has a Saginaw 4 speed. Car went like Jack the Bear, but it ran out of revs too soon:(

Hope this helps; sorry it's so lengthy.

Gord Richmond, within Weasel range of the Alberta Badlands

Roscomacaw
02-01-2006, 06:29 AM
I might add that the switch you propose using provides a ground. It basically takes over the function of the O/D governor ( that's the round thingy at the very rear of the tranny). It only has one wire going to it. Were you aware of that?

Why was it you eliminated the kick-down Sw.?? Being A '50 system, that tranny ought to have another switch on it's left side - just aft of the O/D solenoid. This is the "reverse lockout switch". It was eliminated after the 1955 models when engineers finally figured out that going 32MPH in reverse was unlikely.[}:)]
I say all this because if that switch is still in the circuit and not working as it should, that would give you grief asw well.;)

Miscreant at large.

1957 Transtar 1/2ton
1960 Larkvertible V8
1958 Provincial wagon
1953 Commander coupe
1957 President 2-dr
1955 President State
1951 Champion Biz cpe
1963 Daytona project FS

LarryC
02-01-2006, 12:54 PM
Good information, I will replace the solenoid as suggested which should eliminate the need for the lock out. Right now the wire loop is as follows, hot(12v on a switch) to the solenoid, from solenoid to trans lock, from trans lock to governor. I haven't tested this yet as it is raining and I am off on a business trip today. As fas as I can see I am getting full in and out on the cable and lever. I have a floor shift in the car and put the cable right next to the lever on the floor. This whole mess is in a 50 Champ two door and so far the 215 runs like a top. With the eight inch Ford rear end it runs out of rpm's. Thanks for tips. Oh, no sbc for me, that is way to easy and anyone can do that!! My current project is a 22 overland touring ,in the weeds with a stove bolt.

Roscomacaw
02-01-2006, 01:53 PM
If I read correctly, your description of how it's currently wired, it hasn't got a chance of working. The wire off the governor goes to the Rev lockout switch and then up to the relay on the firewall. Above 32MPH, the governor grounds internally and thereby provides this ground to the relay. This actuates the relay and thereby arms the solenoid.
The only "ground wire" to the solenoid would be the one that temporarily shorts out the ingition coil during passing mode.

Do you HAVE an O/D relay on the firewall? Does your solenoid have two terminals on it or three? Do tell.

Miscreant at large.

1957 Transtar 1/2ton
1960 Larkvertible V8
1958 Provincial wagon
1953 Commander coupe
1957 President 2-dr
1955 President State
1951 Champion Biz cpe
1963 Daytona project FS

LarryC
02-01-2006, 04:55 PM
HMMM, I see (he said knowingly!!) Mr. Biggs, what you are saying makes sence. I do not have an OD relay and the solenoid has two terminals. Clearly I need the relay in the loop, any suggestions for a twelve volt relay? I do not have a kick down switch in the loop either, shouldn't the toggle do the job? In one of the prior posts Gordr mentioned the late model 12 volt solenoid so I will change that while I am in the business. Thanks

Roscomacaw
02-01-2006, 05:18 PM
No, the toggle switch won't do what the throttle switch's job is. The toggle switch (when done right) only allows you to leave the OD engaged ALL the time (which can be dangerous if you forget to turn it off and select reverse - read that, trashed O/D parts!) or to engage it at speeds other than what the factory governor dictates.

The throttle switch's function is to momentarily drop the tranny from O/D back to straight drive. This works like/as a passing gear. You mash the peddle to the floor and the O/D drops out. The switch momentarily shorts out the ignition so the solenoid can drop out and and thereby return the tranny to straight drive. As soon as this happens, the ignition shorting circuit is broken and the engine resumes pulling at full throttle - only thru straight drive now instead of overdrive. In essence - downshifting.
Once you've whizzed around the slowpoke that was in your way, you momentarily release your foot from the gas pedal and the system returns to overdrive.;)

Miscreant at large.

1957 Transtar 1/2ton
1960 Larkvertible V8
1958 Provincial wagon
1953 Commander coupe
1957 President 2-dr
1955 President State
1951 Champion Biz cpe
1963 Daytona project FS

DilloCrafter
02-01-2006, 06:26 PM
Larry,

When I bought my truck, the previous owner had bypassed the kickdown switch and put in a toggle switch on the dashboard to replace the relay. I decided to put it all back as original.

You would probably benefit greatly from this publication by Borg Warner, which thoroughly explains the OD operation (I have read it several times and still haven't fully absorbed it yet). Here's a link to that instruction manual, which someone has submitted to Doc Rusty's "The Old Car Manual Project" web site:
http://www.tocmp.com/manuals/trans/Borg-Warner%20Overdrive/index.htm

As an alternative, I've put those images into one giant PDF file (which makes it easy to print out, but takes a while to download):
http://rocketdillo.com/studebaker/misc/BorgWarnerOverdriveInstructionManual.asp

- DilloCrafter

LarryC
02-01-2006, 07:31 PM
Dillo, thanks for the Borg Warner info. I think I have enough data to figure out my plan of attack. I don't have any of the six volt "under the hood" OD parts, i.e. the kick down switch and the relay. Tranny has two connector solenoid, governor and reverse lock out. The biggest hurdle I see is the kick down switch since the throttle linkage, firewall etc is all different. Got a hunch I may do a four speed !! Any way this forum is a great way to get info from the "pros" thanks a lot.

Roscomacaw
02-01-2006, 10:46 PM
Remembering that someone in the past had pioneered O/D relay rehab, I E-mailed the fella as his web presence no longer offered the detailed instructions as to how he'd addressed his own O/D relay dillema.

He ever so kindly put that recount back up on his website for me. He warned me that it might not stay up for long as his space is limited. So if you're interested (or think you might be sometime), copy off Dave's O/D remake ideas. It ain't rocket science but it's always easier to just follow a path that someone else's already established![:p]

<http://www.geocities.com/dcat917/OdRelay/Default.htm>

Miscreant at large.

1957 Transtar 1/2ton
1960 Larkvertible V8
1958 Provincial wagon
1953 Commander coupe
1957 President 2-dr
1955 President State
1951 Champion Biz cpe
1963 Daytona project FS

Roscomacaw
02-02-2006, 11:47 AM
BTW, The above mentioned fella is one, David Carter, of California. Once you look at the relay redo, click on the link at the very bottom of this page and look at David's gorgeous '51 Business Coupe.
I had the EXTREME pleasure of seeing this car in person awhile back. David left NOTHING to chance when rehabbing this beautiful ride.[8D]

OOPS! I just tried that above link and it's gone again. Darn! Well, it's easy enough to do the mod. If anyone wants, I'd do a similar relay mod and document the process so you could see how it's done.

Miscreant at large.

1957 Transtar 1/2ton
1960 Larkvertible V8
1958 Provincial wagon
1953 Commander coupe
1957 President 2-dr
1955 President State
1951 Champion Biz cpe
1963 Daytona project FS

DilloCrafter
02-02-2006, 01:05 PM
Biggsy said, " Remembering that someone in the past had pioneered O/D relay rehab, I E-mailed the fella as his web presence no longer offered the detailed instructions as to how he'd addressed his own O/D relay dillema."

Well, luckily for us, Chuck Collins has placed that how-to article by David Carter in among the "Help" pages of his StudebakerParts.com website. Here's the link: https://www.studebakerparts.com/studebakerparts/parts/html/pages/relay.html

1955 1/2 Ton Pickup
http://rocketdillo.com/studebaker/misc/images/current_AvaCar.gif

Roscomacaw
02-02-2006, 02:36 PM
Well, there ya go then! Matter of fact, I was just looking in my garage for something and stumbled onto 3 O/D relays I've stashed some time in the past[:0]

Miscreant at large.

1957 Transtar 1/2ton
1960 Larkvertible V8
1958 Provincial wagon
1953 Commander coupe
1957 President 2-dr
1955 President State
1951 Champion Biz cpe
1963 Daytona project FS

LarryC
02-07-2006, 01:41 PM
I downloaded the information, I can do that! Mr. Biggs I will drop you a pm to find out about purchasing one of the relays from you. Again, this is a great forum.