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1949commander
01-30-2006, 12:29 PM
I have a 49 Commander and was researching if I could put a 4.10 gear set in it. It has the 4.56 ratio that was standard with OD, since I drive this car alot I was considering switching to 4.10 ratio. I was checking the parts book and it appears that they used two different castings for the 41 axle and it seems tied to which ratio is used. Can someone tell me if I have to switch the whole axle out to go to 4.10 ratio?

Thanks
Brian:D

Restore it, don't replace it.Keep the Studebaker reproduction industry going

Dick Steinkamp
01-30-2006, 03:02 PM
quote:Originally posted by 1949commander

I have a 49 Commander and was researching if I could put a 4.10 gear set in it. It has the 4.56 ratio that was standard with OD, since I drive this car alot I was considering switching to 4.10 ratio. I was checking the parts book and it appears that they used two different castings for the 41 axle and it seems tied to which ratio is used. Can someone tell me if I have to switch the whole axle out to go to 4.10 ratio?

Thanks
Brian:D

Restore it, don't replace it.Keep the Studebaker reproduction industry going


Oldcals is the expert on Dana 41's. Hopefully he'll jump in here.

-Dick-

garyash
01-30-2006, 04:33 PM
Your timing is good. I just got my February Turning Wheels. See page 27. There is someone with a '49 2R5 truck who wants to swap out his 4.09 ring-and-pinion set and go back to a 4.82 ratio. It's the same Dana 41. I'll bet he'd do an even-up swap for your 4.56, though. His name is Jack Urishin, email address is in the magazine. You should note that Jack wants to swap because his Champ 6 doesn't have enough power to go uphill in 3rd overdrive with the 4.09 ratio. Your Commander has more torque, but Studebaker put the 4.56 in your car for a reason. In overdrive, it's like having a 3.19 final ratio, so your rpms can't be too bad at highway speed.

You need more than the ring and pinion to go back to 4.82, but you don't need to swap the entire axle housing. You do need the ring gear carrier or "case", as it is different for the 4.56 and 4.82 ratios.

Here's a summary on Dana 41 axle ratios:

Dana 41 axle ring and pinion interchange
Information from the ADP/Hollander Classic interchange manual (Classic II) for 1946-56
And Studebaker parts manuals.

Available ratios, stock:
4.82 (53:11), 4.55 (50:11), 4.09 (45:11)
Hollander ring and pinion item 323
Description: 5-5/8 bolt circle diameter, 3/8 diameter bolts

Used in: Studebaker cars 38-50 (except Champ)
Stude truck 41-48 M5, M15, M15A
Stude truck 2R5 49-51 to serial number 65214 on 4.82 and s/n 67101 on 4.09
Stude truck 2R6 50-53 with 4.09 ratio before s/n R6-1,430
Stude Commander 3-speed w/o O/D (4.09) ratio 42, 47-51
Axle shafts have 10 splines

Other ring and pinions that fit:
Hollander item 424A
3.73 (41:11)
3.91 (43:11)
4.09 (45:11) (overdrive cars)
4.27 (47:11) (overdrive cars)
3.92 (51:13)
Used on Frazer 47-51
Kaiser 47-51 (with oval cover)
Note: Kaiser-Frazer complete axle with 60 tread less hubs, drums, and pinion flange may fit Stude truck

Hollander item 430A
3.73 (41:11) [Note: this may be Ford number 8C4209, Vintage Auto PartsWX2466-67]
3.91 (43:11) [Ford part 8M-4209-A, Vintage Auto Parts WX 2460-1]
4.27 (47:11)
4.08 (53:13) [may be typo as 53:11 = 4.82]
Used on Ford 49-50 station wagon
Ford ton truck 48-early 50 (3.73 or 4.27)
Mercury 49-early 50 exc. station wagon and Mercomatic

NOTE: When changing from 4.82 ratio, the case (carrier for ring gear, Dana part # 15518, casting #13828) must also be changed unless the new ratio is 4.55 (or 5.38 from older Jeeps). The carrier for the 4.09 ratio is Studebaker p/n 523660, Dana part # 15998, casting #15999. Dana 15998 part will fit the 3.73-4.27 ratio gear, but Studebaker did not use ratios lower than 4.09 in the Dana 41 axle for either cars or trucks. Kaiser part number is 200388 for 15998 case. This info confirmed by Dana engineer 9/30/2004.


Gary Ash
Dartmouth, MA
'48 M5
'65 Wagonaire Commander
'63 Wagonaire Standard
www.studegarage.com

Oldcals
01-30-2006, 04:51 PM
Brian, I am rebuilding a M-5 and also decided that the 4.85, or whatever number that stump puller was, needed replacing. I found a NOS 4.11 ring and pinion in Colorado so I snapped that up and took it to the differential shop. The next day he called me back and told me that I would need a new carrier. Then I checked the parts book and found out that indeed I would. The pinion is a little bulkier on the lower numbered ratios and therefor the ring gear needs to be carried about 3/16" farther away from the pinion. I finally tracked down a Kaiser vendor that had the NOS carrier that I needed so I bought that from him. Problem is he also had a NOS 3.73 ring and pinion so that is what is now installed in my differential. I took the 4.09 ring gear and my stock carrier (M-5) to a machinist last week and am going down this afternoon to pick it up. I had him take 3/32" off of the carrier but he was unable to shave the ring gear due to its hardness. Next step is to either have the ring gear precision ground or possibly take the other 3/32 out of the bearing end of the carrier. I want to sell the ring and pinion but don't want anyone else to have to go thru the headaches I did finding a workable carrier. I didn't have to change axles in mine but again it is a M-5 and not a car.
The following is an email that I got from Gary Ash when he was helping me on my search for 41 info.

Fred:
After many frustrating attempts to call someone at Dana who knew anything about Model 41 axles and the case for the 4.09 ring gear, I sent off an email to Dana with a request to forward it to someone who could help.
Amazingly, it did get forwarded and here is the answer:

***********************************************************************
"I could find no Spicer interchanges for the Studebaker part numbers that you provided [523660 case and 195117 case]. There is no application information for any vehicles using the Model 41 axle. However, I did find an assembly drawing of a 41-2 axle with a bill-of-material number of 2081. No customer information appears on the drawing, so I don't know whose vehicle it was designed for. I will assume that it is typical for all Model 41 applications. This bill-of-material was available with 3.73, 4.09, 4.55 and 5.38 gear ratios. The 3.73 and 4.09 ratios used a differential case with a part number of 15998 which was made from casting number 15999. The 4.55 and
5.38 ratios used a differential case with a part number of 15518 which was made from a casting number 13828. Nothing that I was able to find indicated exactly where the ratio break was between the two cases.

The numerically high ratio case (4.55 and 5.38) part number 15518, had a dimension from the centerline of the cross shaft to the mounting flange for the ring gear of 1.0625". The numerically low ratio case (3.73 and 4.09)part number 15998, had a dimension from the centerline of the cross shaft to the mounting flange for the ring gear of 1.250". There is a difference of 0.1875" between the two. You asked if it is possible to machine the flange of the high ratio case to allow mounting of low ratio gears. The flange thickness is 13/32" (0.40625"). If you remove 0.1875" from it, you will have a flange thickness of 0.21875". I would not recommend doing this. You are
correct in your assumption that Dana doesn't have either of these cases anymore.

You also asked if there is a copy of the original parts list available. Since I was unable to identify the bill-of-material number that was used in your Studebaker, I used the only one that I could find. It is highly unlikely that we have a copy of the one that you seek."
***************************************************

So, it appears that, in principle, you could machine off exactly 3/16 from
the old case, though it is a risk that it would be too weak. But, now
knowing the dimension, maybe your shop guy could see a way to reinforce the
case with a backup plate, etc. My gut tells me to find another case like
yours and machine that one, rather than risk destroying your good one. One
bit of u

1949commander
01-30-2006, 06:14 PM
Thanks for the info everyone. I thought after checking the parts book that the carrier is different for the 4.10 ratio vs the 4.55. I guess I'll leave it be, it turns about 2650 at 70 mph which is not bad. I can see why Stude choose 4.55 since it eliminates about all shifting in town since I can turn a corner at 15mph without down shifitng into second. That 245 six is like a diesel truck engine with all that torque at 1200 rpms. I guess I'll never have to worry about mountain driving. If I ever find a good complete 4.10 maybe I'll try that.

Brian [8D]

Restore it, don't replace it.Keep the Studebaker reproduction industry going

Oldcals
01-30-2006, 06:21 PM
Brian, I think that Gary is saying the fellow in TW wants to trade out his 4.09 and go back to the higher numerical ratio. That means he will have to swap somebody his entire ring, pinion and carrier.
I'm putting the 245 in my M-5 also as I will be running a 3.76 rear end behind a T86 with overdrive. I'll need all the torque I can get and I think the 245 will do the job. FRed

Roscomacaw
01-31-2006, 01:29 PM
Say Fred,

I think you told me (last time I asked about it) that you'd started to rehab that 245 I gave you. IS it gonna be reborn eventually? Just curious.[:I] It'd be nice to know that the trip I made to save it from the scrap heap was worth the effort and gas.;)

Miscreant at large.

1957 Transtar 1/2ton
1960 Larkvertible V8
1958 Provincial wagon
1953 Commander coupe
1957 President 2-dr
1955 President State
1951 Champion Biz cpe
1963 Daytona project FS

Oldcals
01-31-2006, 08:25 PM
Bob, When I discovered that your 245 had a shattered piston and a deep groove in number 5 I bought another 245 from Jerry Kaiser. I was going to have your engine sleeved and slowly bring it back as a back-up engine. Then I picked up a M16 over near Sebastapol that turned out to have a 245 in it instead of the old 226. Now I am afraid your old engine is going to become a parts donor. I have already used the head as the M16 engine had about a 6 inch split that appeared to have been caused by freezing. (That's hard to believe considering where it came from). I'm going to continue disassembling the old 245 and put the parts in inventory (Dick's terminology). Nothing in the old engine that is remotely useable will be disposed of except to another Stude owner in need. Fred

Roscomacaw
01-31-2006, 11:59 PM
That's good news, Fred. Good words for anyone here. Don't toss it - save it, sell it or give it to someone who will.;)

Miscreant at large.

1957 Transtar 1/2ton
1960 Larkvertible V8
1958 Provincial wagon
1953 Commander coupe
1957 President 2-dr
1955 President State
1951 Champion Biz cpe
1963 Daytona project FS

Stude4x4
02-01-2006, 03:15 PM
I have a dana 41 with 5.38 gears in it. A fellow told me that it was full floating and when I looked at it I said BULL! Anyway if anyone is interested.....
Jake

-Home of John Studebaker-
http://community.webshots.com/user/Stude4x4

garyash
02-01-2006, 04:38 PM
The shop manual says the Dana 41 is a semi-floating axle. I'm not into the 4x4 stuff, but I think that means the axle shaft drives the wheel, supports the weight of the car/truck, and holds the wheel in place on the end of the axle shaft. The definition I found for "full floating axle" says that the axle shaft only drives the wheel, leaving the other two functions to be achieved by some other means. Yes?

I guess that makes the Dana 44 a semi-floating axle as well.

So what vehicle has a full floating axle?

Gary Ash
Dartmouth, MA
'48 M5
'65 Wagonaire Commander
'63 Wagonaire Standard
www.studegarage.com

Transtar60
02-01-2006, 07:19 PM
My 1964 Champ 3/4 ton with the Dana 60. Any Stude 1 ton or larger truck also . In the full floater, the axle has a flange or cap that has 6-8 bolts holding it to the hub, the axle can be removed and the hub, wheel, and bearings stay attached to the axle housing tube.
The GM 14 bolt 10.5 truck rear(3/4 and 1 tons) is a FF also.

Stude4x4
02-01-2006, 11:28 PM
Exactly. Almost all dana 44's are semi-floating. Except for a few that have been modified. Yes, it is possible to turn an axle into full floating. Almost all dana 60's are full floating as well. I have heard of a few that were semi-floating but haven't actually seen any.
Jake

-Home of John Studebaker-
http://community.webshots.com/user/Stude4x4

Roscomacaw
02-02-2006, 11:56 AM
So, you're saying that if I pull the "full-floating axle" from an R16 truck and toss it in the lake - it WON'T float???[?][:0][xx(]

I have to ask then, is it safe to assume that semi-floating axles aren't likely to be found on semis???[:o)]

Miscreant at large.

1957 Transtar 1/2ton
1960 Larkvertible V8
1958 Provincial wagon
1953 Commander coupe
1957 President 2-dr
1955 President State
1951 Champion Biz cpe
1963 Daytona project FS