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kamzack
08-28-2006, 01:46 AM
I've been installing a repro wire harness from Studes West in an M5.
I ran a hot wire from ignition (fused)to lower post on selinoid. OD works with an off/on switch. My question is I'd rather be able to flip switch on and when governor completes circut engage seliniod. The reverse lockout switch is damaged,as the owner could not get it to go into reverse and started yanking wires. I don't want to use an OD relay and kickdown switch. we want the freewheel in traffic and have control of when seliniod engages OD,but still want the governor to tell it when proper rpms are there. Common sense tells me that hot wire should go to governor,to lockout,then selinoid. There is 2 posts on selinoid and 2 on reverse lockout switch.I'll mention that it is a T96 as it has shift rods on the side.
The other concern is when the OD is engaged in third gear, it jumps out gear. When cable is pulled out, third gear works fine and in freewheel OD off, it works fine. Gonna locat a lockout switch tomorrow.
Would appreciate any comments, suggestions and help.
thanks in advance.
Kim

Roscomacaw
08-28-2006, 03:52 PM
Well, if I understand your intentions correctly, I can't understand why you don't want to go with the way the factory engineered the system?
That lockout switch MAY NOT be able to handle the load (current) you'll put on it by running the power to the solenoid thru it. It's only supposed to serve to break the circuit from the governor when reverse gear is selected (and THAT part of the system doesn't use much current - that's why there's a relay used to control the current to the solenoid). Fact is, they did away with that lockout switch after 1955. Someone must've realized is was highly unlikely you'd get going fast enough in reverse to provide a ground from the governor.[xx(] But you using the lockout for what it wasn't intende is asking for trouble in my opinion.

Miscreant at large.

1957 Transtar 1/2ton
1960 Larkvertible V8
1958 Provincial wagon
1953 Commander coupe
1957 President 2-dr
1955 President State
1951 Champion Biz cpe
1963 Daytona project FS

kamzack
08-29-2006, 12:17 AM
That was my question, what is the proper way to wire it without using the relay and kickdown? The reason for using a switch to turn on and engage OD is reduce the wear and tear on 50to 60 year old parts,in and out frequently, in addition to haveing to stick acelerator to the floor to get it out, the sudden surge could come at a bad time. I was asking if the way I stated was correct, I was guessing and hoping someone would help with the correct info. Also why it jumps out of third when OD is engaged.
I do appreciate the feed back.
Kim

DilloCrafter
08-29-2006, 01:21 AM
Hi Kim,

Don't take this wrong: I am guessing that no one wants to tell you the "proper way to wire" a system that you want to wire other than the proper way (i.e., the factory engineered way).

That said, I really think you'll be better off to begin by teaching yourself a thorough understanding of the overdrive system, and then determine for yourself the best way to do what you are after. This is better than taking the word of anyone here on the forum who may be no more of an engineer than you or I, and who doesn't want to be party to something that may turn out to be a bad idea.

Here is a link to my site's page that lets you download a searchable PDF of the Borg Warner Overdrive Service Manual and Operation Manual. I think the Service Manual is more thorough, but feel free to download and print both of them. They are indespensible in helping one to understand anything and everything about the overdrive system. This is a great starting point for your modification.
Borg Warner Overdrive Manuals (http://rocketdillo.com/studebaker/Misc/BorgWarnerOverdriveManuals.asp)

After reading all about it, you may even decide to get newer components and wire it up exactly as original. That's the conclusion I came to for my own truck, after inheriting a wiring job that included a toggle switch in place of the relay and kickdown switch. I decided that I needed a full understanding of the way the system was originally intended to operate, before I could trust a custom rig. And so, I have rewired it to original.

http://rocketdillo.com/studebaker/misc/images/Current_Avacar.gif[/img=left] - DilloCrafter

1955 1/2 Ton Pickup
[i]The Red-Headed Amazon
Deep in the heart of Texas

stuvw2mny
09-02-2006, 01:59 AM
If it jumps out of gear you are likely going to get the pleasure of repairing the internal parts of the overdrive or possibly the transmission. There are several reasons for this, almost all of which involve circulation of loose parts. My first suspicion would be the overdrive free-wheeling cam and roller assembly. Sorry.

I agree with the earlier comment about electrical jury-rigging. Trying to control the solenoid the way you are describing is almost looking for trouble. What year overdrive and solenoid are you dealing with? There are several different solenoids and their wiring is different. Electrical control of the overdrive is fairly simple; most people try to make it more complicated than it really is. The governor, for instance is used solely to provide a GROUND connection for the solenoid. At no or low speed it is open. When speed reaches approximately 30 mph it closes and provides the ground for the solenoid. At approximately 24 mph the governor switch opens and the overdrive disengages. Yes, you can wire the solenoid to start out in overdrive but that is really hard on the internal gears and bearings. If you want to manually control the electrical portion of the overdrive forget using the governor for speed (proper rpms). Use your head/ears/1 finger to control a switch.

stuvw2mny
09-02-2006, 02:12 AM
To clarify, the 30 mph figure refers to acceleration and the 24 mph figures refers to to deceleration of the vehicle. Take the advice given earlier. Until you really understand the electrical control system, restore it to original. It is a well-designed system! Don't try to switch the battery voltage side of the system! I had to say battery voltage as I don't know if you have 6 volt positive ground electrical system or a 12 volt negative ground system.

kamzack
09-02-2006, 05:10 PM
Hi Stuvv,

The trans is a pre 55 as it has the reverse lockout switch on the back. This isn't my first experience with an overdrive. about 20 yrs ago I had a 59 d4 2 dr wagon and others since then, The relay didn't work nor did the kickdown. I drug the wagon out of a pasture and managed to get the motor to run and drove it as a daily for a number of years, getting 25to29 miles per gal.. I took the wire from power source ran wire to a switch under the dash and back to the wire previously mentioned. The M truck I'm working on had the original cloth wrapped harness and most of it was not in good shape. It had been africanized on. The owner bought it at a kruse auction and when he could not get it to go into reverse , he got under it and started yanking wires before finding the OD in/out cable.
I did the same on my 49 Hudson as it didn't have a relay nor a kickdown,so I cut the power source and used a switch. I can't use it as pattern as it has 3 wires going to the selunoid. When I look at the wiring schematic in one of the shop manuels, obviously it includes the items that I want to eliminate. Once again, I'd like the OD to come in when I'm ready for it to. I completely understand the engineering behind it, I know a big name restoration shop that does thier OD's this way with false connections at the relay and KD. the reason is reduce wear and tear on 50 to 70 year old parts.
In one of my Hudson club mags, it was suggested to do this for the reasons I've outlined.
I have a shop manual that shows some of what I need,that being a loom of wires coming down to trans, one to bottom side of sel.,one to reverse lockout switch from sel.,one from switch to governor. I want to run a 10 or 12 gage fused wire to the trans. to operate components properly. I don't want to do a hit and miss job on it. I don't want to use a relay nor a kickdown. I'll eventually figure it out but I was counting on the kindness of fellow Studebaker folks as that's what I've always experienced since 1972, when I inherited a 63 Lark that's been in my family since new. I still have it,still love it. I've probably had over 30 bakers since then, but have always kept the 63 cause of it's heritage. So I'm not new to Studes,just need a little help figuring out what I want to do. I've never had a problem with an overdrive transmission with this method. Not trying to be nasty, but you can see what i've received in responses,and I don't want to be that way. The golden rule applies to all of us.
Thanks in advance,
Kim
hudsonbaker@myexcel.com

Roscomacaw
09-03-2006, 01:00 PM
Well, it's your car and certainly you can wire it any way you want. There's really a pertty small number of regulars here and of those, I'd bet there's not one that's ever taken the same, exact approach you want to. Take into account also that Studebaker ENGINEERED this system to their vehicles in JUST SUCH A WAY as to provide economy and the least wear or strain on the parts involved. I'd be interested in knowing how you see making it better. Maybe we all can learn something here.[:I]
My point is, you asked for advice and did, in fact, get some. So it wasn't what you had hoped for. Does that mean we have to change our ideas to make you feel welcome?
BTW, a '59 wouldn't have had an O/D relay. They went to a 3-wire solenoid in '58.:D
Also - if it jumps out of gear in 3rd O/D, there's internal issues in the tranny. This means taking it apart to find and fix them.;)

Miscreant at large.

1957 Transtar 1/2ton
1960 Larkvertible V8
1958 Provincial wagon
1953 Commander coupe
1957 President 2-dr
1955 President State
1951 Champion Biz cpe
1963 Daytona project FS

kamzack
09-05-2006, 10:21 AM
Hey Guys,

To All who have responded and read my questions and request for help. I do appreciate it very much. I do apologize and ask for forgiveness. I'm kinda under the gun to get this project finished and thought I could move along a little quicker by asking other experienced Stude people and you have helped me and I am greatful. I do get a little tunnel-visioned when it comes to doing things as I usually have a pre-concieved notion about how it should be or how it should look. When I'm not achieving that, my brain starts to short circut and I become more determined to make something work. So, I hope you understand and forgive me. Afterall, I do drive Studebakers and Hudsons as regular transportation. That in itself makes me a little(?) different than those that view cars and trucks as a necessary evil. Over the years I've had folks ask me;"why do you drive those old cars"? My response has always been"how much is your car payment, how much is your insurance, if yours breaks, can you fix it,bet you have to call the hook to come get it,huh?" My last new vehicle was an 84 Ford van,when I sold it after 240k mi. I started driving my 57 Broadmoor. When I sold it,after 17 yrs, of ownership, it had over 300k on it, I was never stranded. One of the questions I've loved answering when I'd be along ways from home,"did you drive that thing here?", No I pushed it and when I get tired of pushing I pull with a rope. I've always had a great time inter acting with people about the stuff I drive, I've made a lots of friends, made people laugh at my antics and because of driving my Studes and Hudsons, I've found a number of other cars. You know,they'll say, I know where one of them is laying and the hunt is on. Sometimes treasure, sometimes junk. Wherever I've lived I've been known as the guy that drives Studebakers. That's how I wound up doing this wire harness project.(He also added turn signals to the mix) Guy showed up at my door one day and said your the guy I'm looking for,someone in town told him about me, that and a half dozen Studes sittin round.
My hope is that I've smoothed feathers and all is well. After all I'm a 10yr.old kid trapped in a57 yr. old body,not ever wanting to grow up.
Kim

DilloCrafter
09-05-2006, 12:14 PM
Hi Kim,

I see that you understand that we are only trying to help, and also that each of us has only his own limited knowledge to work from. In light of this, I deleted my most recent post (which won't be missed since it added no Studebaker knowledge to this topic thread).

You have lots of experience with keeping Studebakers driving, much more than I do (it was enlightening to read some of the particulars you provided). I hope that we can call on you for assistance occasionally, and that you will also chime in when someone posts a question that you can help with. I suspect you know a lot of answers that I will eventually have questions for.

Paul


http://rocketdillo.com/studebaker/misc/images/Current_Avacar.gif[/img=left] - DilloCrafter

1955 1/2 Ton Pickup
[i]The Red-Headed Amazon
Deep in the heart of Texas

kamzack
09-06-2006, 10:05 AM
Hey D C and all concerned,
I hope you understand, I'm not a know it all,but I do really enjoy playing with Studes and Hudsons. Thanks for your positive comments and if I can help ,I'll respond. In 1960 My dad spotted a 57 President Broadmoor and a few days later I went with him to look closer and test drive the wagon. Once I heard those twin pipes, I was hooked. Watching my Dad trade cars was always a show, he'd make a sales guy swet bullits. Dad traded a 51 Hudson Super Six in on the wagon. Our family drove this wagon until 1966, When Dad spotted a 1964 Chrysler Newport wagon, I was there to watch the show. Also that year He bought my younger sister a 1964 Cruiser to drive to high school. Studes and Hudsons didn't have much value in those days. The Broadmoor was bought at a Stude dealership at the corner of Central and Cooper in Memphis,Tn,Jack Chamblin Motors.
My older brother and I had an early Am paper route near there. When we finshed one Sunday morning we went looking around. There were 4 New Avantis sittin together boxed in by other new Studes. They weren't locked so we sat in a couple. Nosing around I found the keys in the ashtray,had to fire it up . the next couple minutes was spent going back and forth in a new Avanti, the sound of those pipes really got me hooked. Nothing sounds as good as Stude V8 properly tuned at the end of duel exhausts, It's musical magic to a motorhead's ears. The 63 Lark that I have was purchased new at this dealership by my first wife's grandfather. I inherited it in 1972 it's sittin in my drive now and will pass it on to my oldest daughter when the Lord calls me home. Thanks for letting me share.
Kim

kamzack
09-06-2006, 10:22 AM
Hey again,

I left out some Stude stuff. In 1962, My older brother spotted and add in the paper for a 53 Stude. My Dad, brother, and I went to look. It was a 53 C bodied Bill Bourk car,Yellow with balck top and trim. It was 232,3speed/overdrive. He absolutely drove the wizz out of that poor car. He could catch first gear overdrive and never had an engine problem with it. He never had any problems with it period. When it was traded at the Chevy store for plain jane new 64 malibu, I begged my dad to let me go buy it. I was 15 at the time,in the 10th grade,"no car til your out of high school". For the next 2 weeks I'd ride my Cushman Eagle to the dealer and peer at it through the back lot fence,til the day it was no longer there. So, you see how I got my affliction.
Kim

Roscomacaw
09-06-2006, 04:18 PM
Sure Kim, I'm not REALLY upset. My point was that you'd asked for help, we gave what we had and you seemed irked by that. But - no big deal.[:I]
At 61, I've not had the life-long association with Studes that you have, but I fell for them in '73 and have been driving (and horading) them ever since.
I can relate to ALL the goofy comments from "regular folks" that you speak of. Many appreciate the sight of an old Stude in use and can't , for the life of them, understand WHY one would do such a silly thing![:o)] That's fine with me.
Fact is, I had a gal ask me the other day: "Why DO you drive that old truck all the time?"
Knowing she drives a fairly new Honda Civic, I replied: "How many folks honk at you and make complimetary comments and gestures when you're in your Honda?" She didn't say anything. She just kinda gave me a befuddled look and went back to her paperwork.[^]

I like to make this observation. Would you rather have a $10,000 dollar work of art on your wall or have a $10,000 dollar piece of art you can actively participate with? No piece of art I know of can make your hair stand up when you rev it up! I rest my case.;)

Miscreant at large.

1957 Transtar 1/2ton
1960 Larkvertible V8
1958 Provincial wagon
1953 Commander coupe
1957 President 2-dr
1955 President State
1951 Champion Biz cpe
1963 Daytona project FS

stuvw2mny
09-07-2006, 02:40 AM
Hello Kim,

I don't know where the ruffled feathers are. I am just trying to help. I am glad to hear exactly what year overdrive unit you are working on and that you have been around Studes for just a little while. Since it has been a few years since I worked on my 1956 overdrive and since I just finished rebuilding a 1959 overdrive (the one in the Hawk my Dad bought new for me in 1959) I don't exactly remember offhand all the exact wiring details of the early 3-terminal solenoid overdrive. I do know they changed several times and definitely in 1959. I was, for instance, surprised to discover The transmission case became smaller in 1959, and our nice set of new gaskets (for the 1956 T86/R10 trans/od unit) didn't fit the 1959 T86/R10 unit. The T96 unit is even smaller and weaker.

As I said earlier the solenoids changed around as the engineers found better ways to operate the solenoid - including eliminating the lockout switch. I have a 1951 PARTS & REEPAIR MANUAL WITH A COMPLET WIRING DIAGRAM FOR THE 3-TERMINAL SOLENOID AND LOCKOUT SWITCH OVERDRIVE UNIT. Send me an address or a fax number and I will be happy to send it to you.

You seem to keep insisting that you are running a POWER wire to the lockout switch or governor. That buffaloes me completely as they are both used IN SERIES to make or interrupt the GROUND to the relay, which then provides battery power to terminal 4 of the solenoid. That is why a MANUAL dashboard switch with one side connected to ground and the other side connected between the governor and lockout switch works to safely & completely control the solenoid engagement and disengagement. If someone has come up with some way to switch the positive side, fine. But I don't believe that method really works in the best manner. Maybe you are dealing with a 6 volt positive ground system whereas I am thinking of a 12 volt negative ground system. Which are you using??? We need to know!

Yes I ran my car in first overdrive, too, but I guarantee you that is hard on the bearings (especially in the countershaft of the transmission) and on the planetary gears of the overdrive. Based on prior experience and every one of the last 3 OD transmissions I have worked on the weak part of the Borg Warner overdrive is the planetary gears and the roller cage behind them. If you want to "save" the overdrive and transmission you will avoid unecessary loading of it, especially if it is the smaller T96 unit. SO, PLEASE SEND ME A FAX NUMBER OR AN ADDRESS SO I CAN SEND YOU A WIRING DIAGRAM. It is a true diagram, not a schematic, so it is very easy to follow.

stuvw2mny
09-07-2006, 03:35 AM
PS I went back and re-read your posting and dug out the wiring diagram I alluded to earlier. It appears you are trying to eliminate all the "extra" OD parts (relay, governor,kickdown switch) and control the solenoid directly with a power wire on the dash. Would you believe an electrical engineer that, yes,it can be done with the right solenoid. The early solenoid had a terminal (4?) for the pull-in coil and another terminal(6?) for the holding coil. Later solenoids, which you could substitute if you are using 12 volts, use only one terminal . I don't know their exact configuration but they likely have some internal switching arrangement to avoid continuous heavy current drain (and heat inside the solenoid). If you are going to do this I would definitely add a small indicator light hooked to the solenoid side of the switch. You will need a heavy duty switch, also, because of inductive current surge when the solenoid is turned on or off.

All in all, yes, the right solenoid can be controlled directly. Are you going to be the only operator, or will there be others who might be unfamiliar with the switch/overdrive operation? I really think direct control of the solenoid holds danger for possible increased severity of overdrive switching, increased mechanical loading of the transmission and overdrive, accelerated solenoid burnout, and operator error.

A slightly better solution sugggested is keep the relay, install a switch dashboard switch in place of the governor (you can leave the governor in place, just don't connect any wiring), and the mechanical lockout switch and kickdown switch become optional (nice to have but not necessary). Again a small indicator light to the solenoid /relay connection should be added so you know when the solenoid is activated.

The Studebaker or Hudson or Jeep or Kaiser or Rambler or possibly even Ford or Chevrolet relay does not have to be used if you can find an industrial relay with sufficient contact rating and correct coil voltage (6 or 12 volt)

Roscomacaw
09-07-2006, 01:24 PM
stuvw2mny says: "A slightly better solution sugggested is keep the relay, install a switch dashboard switch in place of the governor (you can leave the governor in place, just don't connect any wiring), and the mechanical lockout switch and kickdown switch become optional (nice to have but not necessary). Again a small indicator light to the solenoid /relay connection should be added so you know when the solenoid is activated."

If Kim wants more versatility, why not just run a wire from a toggle switch on the dash, to the governor wire (leaving it attched to the governor AND the reverse lockout switch. This way you can override the governor and bring in the OD sooner if you want. OR - if you wanted the O/D to not come UNTIL later, run the governor wire up TO a switch on the dash (so the circuit can be broken) THEN to an adjoining switch (so it could be engaged EARLIER if desired) and back down to the governor side of the lockout switch. NOW, you've got total mastery of earlier or later override AS WELL AS reverse lockout protection AND the kickdown function! (working this out in my head here. If anyone sees that this couldn't work, set me straight.)
I'd advise against doing any of this without a reverse lockout switch on the tranny tho - and those were dropped from Stude trannies after 1955. It only takes one distracted engagement of reverse with the O/D actuated to make an expensive mess out of your transmission.[xx(] I've personally seen this happen on another guy's Stude and it was very disheartening.[V] BTW, You might be able to somehow incorporate a BU lite switch to function as a Rev lockout switch WITH some fiNAGLEing ;) as in Nate Nagle.[:0][8D]


Miscreant at large.

1957 Transtar 1/2ton
1960 Larkvertible V8
1958 Provincial wagon
1953 Commander coupe
1957 President 2-dr
1955 President State
1951 Champion Biz cpe
1963 Daytona project FS

kamzack
09-09-2006, 05:14 PM
Hey Guys;

I was over working on this 46 "M" today trying to do 4 things.1. finish wiring turn signals 2. try to figure out why I'm getting feedback on rear lites 3. find out why coolant isn't cirulating through raditor. 4. try to figure a way to power the overdrive from a fused switch.
Let's take #4. See what you think of this; run power to top post of selinoid,run a wire from governor to reverse lockout switch,then from the other post on reverse lockout to bottom post on selinoid. (Have a fused switch power source run there now) Would that give me what I want?
#3 I figoured out that the block had an air pocket in it,disallowing coolant from cirulating.
#2. I decided to put a small lites on the brackets that hold the tail lights and forget trying to stop feedback. I tried grounding each tail light to the frame, no help.
#1 I can do after I get 2 lites attached at the rear for signals.
The owner wants to use the truck in his son's wedding on the 22 of this month,so I'll wire into harness after that as he and I don't really want extra lights permantly.
I really would like to find a correct overdrive trans for this truck, but I don't know that he'd go for it. Thanks you all for your help in advance.
Kim

Roscomacaw
09-09-2006, 06:46 PM
#4 - no, it won't give you what you want. In fact, you can't operate a 2-post solenoid without a relay. One post of that solenoid IS for power. Power that's usually controlled by a relay (think of a relay as a remote-controlled switch - in the case of the O/D system, the governor is the "remote control device")
That other terminal on the solenoid has nothing to do with providing a ground for the solenoid itself. The solenoid's winding grounds internally in the solenoid itself.
That other terminal PROVIDES a momentary ground to temporarily ground out the ignition when working in conjunction with a kickdown switch, so running the governor wire to it directly or thru the lockout switch is gonna do nothing as a ground for the solenoid OR as protection against inadvertently going into reverse with the O/D on. And as I think I said earlier, that can leave you with a four-letter sputtering nightmare.[V]

Miscreant at large.

1957 Transtar 1/2ton
1960 Larkvertible V8
1958 Provincial wagon
1953 Commander coupe
1957 President 2-dr
1955 President State
1951 Champion Biz cpe
1963 Daytona project FS