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Scott
01-13-2006, 11:36 AM
Has anyone ever contacted Andy Granatelli or anyone who worked with him to see if they have a list of the Avantis that they converted to the R3 setup? My father has an R3 that looks as good as a factory R3 in the way it was put together, but we know it isn't one that came from the factory that way (it also has a partial flow 1959 truck motor, which I'm pretty sure Granatelli would never have allowed, but that's another story).

We should try to find out this information before it's lost forever.

JDP
01-13-2006, 12:06 PM
All the Granatelli R3 Avanti's are well documented, not so with all the "B" block engines he sold over the counter. If you have a "real" R3, the engine alone is worth more then most Avanti's. I can help ID the engine for you. The R3's all had 4 valve cover breathers, and a extra pan breather. Many folks simply added the R3 pressure box to the stock R2, but there is a lot more to it then that.

Here's a clone R3 I built:



http://stude.com/R3engine.jpg

Studebaker On The Net http://stude.com
64 GT Hawk
64 R2 4 speed Challenger
63 R2 4 speed GT Hawk
53 Street rod

Swifster
01-13-2006, 01:05 PM
Has anyone made a definite parts list of what goes into an R-3? My parts book doesn't show any of this stuff. And what was different in the rest of the driveline?

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Tom - Sterling Heights, MI

Ancient Chinese Proverb: "Injection is nice, but I'd rather be blown!"

1964 Studebaker Daytona - Laguna Blue, Original 4-Spd. Car, Power Steering, Disc Brakes, Bucket Seats, Tinted Glass, Climatizer Ventilation System, AM Radio (136,989 Miles)

Scott
01-13-2006, 01:33 PM
Thanks JDP,

All I can tell you right now is that my dad's R3 is serial number R-1089. I don't have the engine serial number handy. It has a 4 speed transmission. He says he doesn't think the valve covers have breathers on both sides. We'll check sometime soon.

Mike
01-13-2006, 01:43 PM
There are two Studebaker Avanti parts books. One has a white cover and is dated July, '62. The other has a black cover and is dated Dec. '63. Only the later version has the R3 & R4 parts shown. It's very meticulous.
Both are listed on Ebay. Search "Avanti Parts".
Mike M.

Swifster
01-13-2006, 02:24 PM
Thanks Mike. I like the manuals on CD. I'll check with Classic to see which manual has been used.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Tom - Sterling Heights, MI

Ancient Chinese Proverb: "Injection is nice, but I'd rather be blown!"

1964 Studebaker Daytona - Laguna Blue, Original 4-Spd. Car, Power Steering, Disc Brakes, Bucket Seats, Tinted Glass, Climatizer Ventilation System, AM Radio (136,989 Miles)

Scott
01-13-2006, 02:59 PM
If these are well documented, then whose got the information? I've never seen any mention of a list of cars or engines that Granatellis worked on. How can I get this list?

studegary
01-13-2006, 03:10 PM
quote:Originally posted by Scott

Thanks JDP,

All I can tell you right now is that my dad's R3 is serial number R-1089. I don't have the engine serial number handy. It has a 4 speed transmission. He says he doesn't think the valve covers have breathers on both sides. We'll check sometime soon.


That Avanti (1089) is an early 1963 model. It was built in August 1962. That is way too early to have come with an R3 engine from any source.

JDP
01-13-2006, 04:08 PM
There were nine production R3's built starting at R5089 plus the Salt flats car which has surrvived and is being restored. The engine differances are many, the chassis is just a few susspension changes, a cold air intake and a unique tach.

Studebaker On The Net http://stude.com
64 GT Hawk
64 R2 4 speed Challenger
63 R2 4 speed GT Hawk
53 Street rod

Scott
01-13-2006, 04:48 PM
Maybe I've been misunderstood. I have been under the impression that besidesthe 9 factory R3 cars, Granatelli outfitted several others as R3s at his facility, which I think was in California. I'd like to know where the records are that show which cars were made into R3s as an aftermarket upgrade by his shop. I'm quite sure I've read that this happened, and those are the cars I'm curious about, not the factory R3s.

JDP, didn't you say the Granatelli R3s are well documented? I'm trying to find out about the real aftermarket Granatelli R3s, not the factory ones. Maybe you're calling the factory R3s Granatelli R3s.

Mike
01-13-2006, 05:14 PM
Andy Granatelli drove an Avanti with a special modified engine to a record 171.1 mph, before the official unveiling of the car, in April '62. I have a copy of a Stude press release about it, dated April 23, for release April 25. The car was unveiled April 26. The engine was planned to be made available in production Avanti's. In April of '62, it would have been a prototype R3, in a very early '63 body.
The Granatelli's put R3 engines in a couple of Larks, and more than just one Avanti. Another that comes to mind belonged to Vince. When the R3 blew, it was replaced with a less expensive, Cadillac engine.
I've seen a road test comparing "Andy's Avanti" to a standard version. I don't know what car that was.
Mike M.

Mike
01-13-2006, 05:51 PM
The road test comparing Andy Granatelli's Avanti to a stock one was in the August, '63 "Motor Trend". There's a copy on Ebay.
Mike M.

Alan
01-13-2006, 06:12 PM
Scott, Paxton Products AKA STP was at 929 Olympic Blvd. in Santa Monica. It was run by Joe Granatelli and he ran it with an iron fist. In the 3 years that I worked there I saw Andy 3 times. In and out good time Andy, there for the pictures and BS and off. Now I can only tell you about what I saw. The oil pans for the R3-4-5's came from Studebaker on pallets. We modified them there. You could buy across the counter R3 heads and manifold for $350 in 66. A lot of hard parts crossed the counter. But anything built and sold as a Studebaker R3 or R4 to be put in a car was done there and was documented. So yes you could buy pieces but if it wasn't built by Stude and modified by STP you can't call it from the factory.

Green53
01-13-2006, 06:16 PM
There is a list of the R3 engines but none that I know of that tells what cars they were installed. The over the counter engines were mostly dealer installed. There are quite a few R3 clones that are just R2's with a few R3 items. I see Vince quite often and he has some interesting stories to tell.
Denny L

DEEPNHOCK
01-13-2006, 08:32 PM
Well, If you were to ask Andy that question today, he would probably tell you that he created the Avanti, STP, Studebaker, the Supercharger (ALL of them, and not just Paxton), the moon and the stars;)
Jeff[8D]




quote:Originally posted by Scott

Has anyone ever contacted Andy Granatelli or anyone who worked with him to see if they have a list of the Avantis that they converted to the R3 setup? My father has an R3 that looks as good as a factory R3 in the way it was put together, but we know it isn't one that came from the factory that way (it also has a partial flow 1959 truck motor, which I'm pretty sure Granatelli would never have allowed, but that's another story).

We should try to find out this information before it's lost forever.

Scott
01-13-2006, 10:24 PM
Thanks, Alan. I'm sure you have a lot of knowledge that would make great reading in Turning Wheels. Well, did the Granatelli's never actually install the engines? Did they just build them and let others install them? I would think that Joe kept records of the engines they built. I wonder if they still exist.

I had thought about writing Andy Grantelli about this, but my gut feeling was that I either would not get a response, or I would be told that maybe someday a copy of the list of cars/engines done could be sent to me (and you know that probably means never).

Alan
01-13-2006, 11:00 PM
Scott, Joe G. ran the place but he had a close friend who wrote for Hot Rod mag. name of Bill Burke. Bill got 2 of the Avantis 1, was the Due Cento EX-2942 which he sold to Richard Bennett the 3 in 1969. The other EX-2143 was called the 229 car and later the Burke-Bros.-Leggit-Exostec (Terrible Turkey). Driven by his son Steve to a number of records a Bonniville. Burke sat around the back door and acted like a security guard keeping an eye out for people going in and out plus if you came to buy anything where you had to come to the back which was on an alley (the front was a 1 way street) he was the guy you would meet. He still lives in Alhambra and would be the person to talk to. I have talked to a number of people that have tried to get info from Paxton and they get nowhere.

JDP
01-13-2006, 11:01 PM
I suspect he may of possibly installed a few. The records of "B" engine production may never be knowm since near the end, he was making them out out of odds and ends left over and did not keep records..
The surviving engines are still turning up now and then and a easy to ID when found.

Studebaker On The Net http://stude.com
64 GT Hawk
64 R2 4 speed Challenger
63 R2 4 speed GT Hawk
53 Street rod

JDP
01-13-2006, 11:14 PM
Found this R3 info on the net:

" R3 Option: Special production order from Paxton (Granatelli brothers).
304.5 CID, 9.5-1 compression, Dual belt driven Paxton supercharger (8 in. crank pulley, 4 in. blower pulley), special cam, heads, pistons, tube connecting rods, cast exhaust headers, non-sealed AFB carb in a large cast pressure box. This car also had solid inner suspension ushings for tighter handling. Only 9 were sold as production orders, however there are cars in which these engines were installed afterwards by owners, etc. There was an interesting option offered with these, called a Carb-u-meter, which was installed in the dash console. This included a vacuum guage and 2 carburator adjustment screws to fine tune the engine while driving.

There were only 9 made, all 64's, the first was R5089. They seldom change hands, but we hear $30,000 to $50,000 figures mentioned. However, Paxton Products had several of these blueprinted, hand-assembled R3 engines left over when Studebaker ceased
production. They sold them retail for about $1660 for a couple of years.

There are probably 20 or so factory-built R3 engines running around in various Avanti, Hawk and Lark bodies. There are probably another 50 or so engines which have been built up to R3 specs and use the R3-style carb box.
Nine Production R3 built & delivered - serial number
r5089 turquoise 4 spd,
r5237 black 4 spd,
r5394 white4 spd
r5532 turq 4 spd
r5546 gold 4 spd
r5593 grey auto
r5625 black auto
r5642 white auto
r5643 white auto.

The last 2 cars were in fact the last Avantis built by Studebaker in Nov 1963. Joe Erdelac owned the last one and it is in a museum collection after he donated it

R5089 is in the basement of Joliet Studebaker where it's been sitting apart for over 20 years. The owner has acquired nearly another complete car in NOS parts to restore the R3, but has not done anything. He offered the car to me two years ago, than backed out when his son objected to the sale. (BTW, it was built with a 4:88 rear !) The following are the original locations of the r-3
Avantis:

( R5642 - Moline IL)
( R5089 - Downers Grove, IL)
( R5593 - Yuma,AZ.
( R5237 - Seattle, WA)
( R5394 - Kingston, PA)
( R5546 - Ft. Wayne,In.
( R5643 - Jackson, MI)
( R5625 - Toledo, OH )
( R5532 - Vauxhall, NJ )


Studebaker On The Net http://stude.com
64 GT Hawk
64 R2 4 speed Challenger
63 R2 4 speed GT Hawk
53 Street rod

Mike
01-14-2006, 05:09 AM
The 171 mph Avanti in the April, '62 press release would have originally been an engineering prototype with an "EX" serial #, since it was pre-production. If it was to be registered and driven on the street, it should have been "converted" to a production car; and assigned a production serial #. Stude did this with some of the engineering prototypes:
John posted a copy of the build sheet for EX-2947/R-5650 @ http://stude.com/sheet.jpg some time ago.
The build sheet, (from data base), for EX-2944/R-5651 is shown on page 12 of the Newman and Altman catalog that Sasco uses.
These two cars were originally assembled early in 1962; and assigned post production serial #'s, in 1964. One that was converted during production would probably have a serial # from the time the paper work was done. Maybe some of the prototypes the Granatelli's got were "converted".
Cars R-1014 & R-1025 are listed at http://patriot.net/~jonroq/avanti63.html . They are possible engineering prototypes, ex Granatelli, with R3 engines and production serial #'s.
A build sheet from the museum, preferably a copy of the original as opposed to one from the data base, should show the "EX" origin of a converted car. Cars, or at least the R2 truck that went to the Granatelli's, show a destination of "Paxton Products Division" on the build sheet, (also in the NA catalog).
There is a thread on alt.autos.studebaker , from Aug. 13,2005, about the Granatelli cars. In addition to the two that Alan mentions, there were Avanti's with #8 & #9 on the door.
Pictures from car mags at the time show #9 Avanti as well as a Lark convertible and hard top with R3 engines, that the Granatelli's were running for speed records in '63.
Mike M.

Scott
01-14-2006, 01:18 PM
Thanks JDP and Mike. It's practically a case for a private eye to find out where the motors went, then.

It could be that the engine in my fathers car was outfitted by someone other that the Granatellis, but with their hardware. What I can't inderstand is why someone would put a partial flow V8 from a truck in this car. I don't know if it has R3 heads, but I need to check the casting number on the ones in the car and see what they say.

Obviously, we don't know what kind of internal components are in the engine, either.

Does anyone know a really good person to send the AFB carburetor to for a rebuild?

Mike
01-14-2006, 02:01 PM
Some people insist the early block is better. The water jacket cores were supposed to be more consistently positioned; making the cylinder walls a more uniform thickness.
What serial # is on the block?
Mike M.

Alan
01-14-2006, 04:11 PM
Scott, the casting no. on R3 heads should be 1555479

Stude8
01-15-2006, 10:08 PM
I am surprised with all this talk about R3's no one has listed Ron Ellerbe who publishes The Jet Thrust News and keeps the R3-R4 roster??

My personal roster lists 119 R3 and R4 powered vehicles or engines known to exist at one time or another. This is a fast moving target to keep tract of, they sell, get lost or turn out to be duplicates of the same engine after ownership changes.

My interest is I was 3rd owner of Avanti R5089 in 1973. When I bought it the 2nd owner (Frank Copis) had pulled the R3 and installed a GM 454 V8 that was actually 460 CID from a C Gas dragster (A nutcake who spent a lot of money at a stock car builders shop) Eventually after we got it running the car could not be driven on the street for many reasons, overheating, steering faults because of engine size and simply too much torque because the GM idled at 1800 RPM!

I sold the GM engine and bought back the R3 (R3-SH320) from another party who had bought it from the hotrod shop, it had many problems from sitting in Chicago weather outside for 6 years and elected I to use the crank and pistons in another RS block and had it rebuilt by Mike Salay in South Bend (Factory Speed Shop..another story) and installed it in R5089 again. I never got to drive the car, I sold it to the late Marc Dahl, he sold it to Bob Kapteyn who owns it now (It has not been driveable since 1973!) . Bob has recently re-restored R3-SH320 and plans to put R5089 (The first factory R3 Avanti) back together someday.

Scott, if you would like a copy of my 2002 roster email me and I can send it in Excell format (.xls). I did look and your serial 1089 does not appear on it? Maybe you have located yet another unknown R3. Please find and list the engine serial number stamped on the top left front of the block. It should begin with R3S or B, if it begins with RS or JT it is not an R3 block.

Stude8

Scott
01-15-2006, 10:22 PM
Thanks, Stude8.

I'll e-mail later about the roster. I know the block in the car is a 1959 truck engine. I don't know if it has been altered inside. I don't remember the serial number on the block, but I know for sure it starts with the letter E. It is a partial oil flow engine block. I've taken a look at a picture my father sent to me and it appears the valve covers only have a single beather cap on each - but the covers are chrome.

Scott
01-16-2006, 10:00 AM
Actually, maybe I was wrong about the block number starting with E. It could've been the second number/letter. I did check it though, and it corresponded with the kind of number given to 1959 truck engines.