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icobra2ford
12-29-2005, 11:59 AM
Does anybody know what year/model vehicles will fit to my 53 champ? I have heard that a Ford grenada/mercury monarch set-up will work,but I need to know what parts I need and what parts I dont. I am trying to stay away from the $500 front end disk kits offered by some ebay co. Also, what rear end set-up will work for this car? I have heard a Ford 8.8 will work,but ther again,I need more info..Thanks for the help!

Dan White
12-29-2005, 12:59 PM
To my knowledge there is no drop in disk brake setup that will fit a '51 - '66 Studebaker, with the exception of the '63-'66 Stude disk brake setup. A word of warning, DO NOT TAKE any short cuts with the brake system. There is a reason why the Turner and Steeltech (that is the one on ebay) setups cost what they do, they are guaranteed to fit and work safely. I have had a Steeltech system on my '64 R1 GT for several years and it has worked great, others have the Turner system and as far as I know it works equally well. Steeltech also offers a budget system that basically are the brakets I believe and you supply the rest, Dave will give you the list and you can go to your local auto supply store and get the rotors, calipers, etc. Steeltech also makes a rear disk brake kit for Stude (Dana) rears that work well also. I do not know if there is a drop in rear w/ disk brakes that will fit a Stude or not, since Studebakers tend to be a bit narrower than modern vehicles. Sorry for preaching but I put brakes as the #1 safety issue on any car. If you can't stop safely having all the other stuff will not do you a lick of good.

Dan White
64 R1 GT
64 R2 GT

Roscomacaw
12-29-2005, 01:41 PM
Dan's spot on here.;) The best you can do is to either get a late Stude disc brake setup (expensive!) or use one of the two kits done by the Stude-specific vendors.
A good way to save money is to buy their economy kits and shop for the calipers, hoses, rotors and whatnot by yourself. The kits TELL you what items are engineered into their system so it's not like you have to do guesswork there.
That's the way I went when putting disc brakes on my Transtar and it was a good deal cheaper than buying the whole kit!;)

Miscreant at large.

1957 Transtar 1/2ton
1960 Larkvertible V8
1958 Provincial wagon
1953 Commander coupe
1957 President 2-dr
1955 President State
1951 Champion Biz cpe
1963 Daytona project FS

Alan
12-29-2005, 04:27 PM
The front rotors from a 70-71 Dodge charger fit right on with only a change in inner bearing and oil seal. But you have to make your own brackets. If you are not confident in your fab skills then buy from Turner.

Alan
12-29-2005, 06:30 PM
Right after I posted this above I got a call from Superior Spindle Co. They said that my Willwood disc brake kit for early Ford 9" station wagon would be in Tues. and that it was $650 and I would have to put my John Hancock on a liability waver if I wanted to put them on myself.

Mike Van Veghten
12-29-2005, 06:57 PM
Yep...pretty much what everyone else has said.

I've had both Steel Tech's. and Turners. The rotors and calipers are the same in both kits, just the bracket and little stuff is a little different.
The Turner caliper bracket is much nicer looking than the Steel Tech's. bracket, they work pretty much the same though. I sold my Turner kit cause it weighs a ton.

I have the Steel Tech. on two Studes I have....that said I will be removing the kit on my 54 to make my own bracket to use the Wilwood 4 piston caliper on the front. I have Wilwood on the back and prefer the lighter matched caliper setup.

Either kit will work well for you.

Dan White
12-29-2005, 07:03 PM
I said before that there was not a drop on disk brake set up and that is basically true. However, Alan's post got me thinking that the '68 Ford LTD rotors will drop on the Stude spindles just fine, with no modifications. This was the basis of the early Steeltech (aka Dave Levesque) kit, along with Kelsey-Hayes (mid-70's Chrysler calipers) and the one on my GT ( I believe he uses a GM based setup now). However a couple of points, 1) you will need to make your own brackets, and as Alan says you need to know what you are doing. 2) The rotors are tough to find since they are a one year only part, NOS/after market new are virtually non-existant. Luckily I found a ''68 Fort LTD nut that had a stash of these rotors. So there are some partial solutions.

Dan White
64 R1 GT
64 R2 GT

icobra2ford
12-29-2005, 07:48 PM
Thanks guys,I will prob. go with the steelt.version. If anybody has a suggest. on what rearends will fit under my 53 please let me know. I would like to keep the standard 5 bolt pattern......

Alan
12-29-2005, 08:03 PM
57-59 Fords and T-birds will drop right in, all you have to do is pull the spring on the second side out a little, the Stude was about 1/2" narrower at the spring pads. The drive shaft even bolts right back in if you use the right yoke. There were 3 different length and u joint styles.

Dick Steinkamp
12-29-2005, 08:26 PM
quote:Originally posted by icobra2ford

Does anybody know what year/model vehicles will fit to my 53 champ? I have heard that a Ford grenada/mercury monarch set-up will work,but I need to know what parts I need and what parts I dont. I am trying to stay away from the $500 front end disk kits offered by some ebay co. Also, what rear end set-up will work for this car? I have heard a Ford 8.8 will work,but ther again,I need more info..Thanks for the help!


Ok, Jeff is going to accuse me of being a "pot stirrer" [8D], but here goes.

Disk brakes are better than drums. They stop better than drums when wet and they are better than drums when stopping repeatedly from speed. My two daily drivers have 4 wheel disks. I wouldn't have it any other way, but...

for most of us, our Studes aren't our daily drivers. We are not driving through hubcap deep water and we are not getting the drums glowing cherry red from a bunch of 80-0 stops. But that's not my point.

The '54 and up Studebaker V8 drum brakes are gosh durn good. All components were engineered to work together. My '54 Streetrod has the stock '54 brakes (all new parts). It stops straight and true (and always as short as I've needed :)).

I've always wondered if replacing the stock drums with front disks (maybe throw in a brand x rear end) would stop as good as the stock brakes. Is the master cylinder of choice matched to the bore and stroke of both the front calipers and rear cylinders (or calipers)? Are there correct residual check valves for whatever ends up on the front and rear? Is the proportioning valve right for the car's weight (if adjustable, is it set correctly)? Seems to me that there are enough variables when switching to disk brakes that it is entirely possible that the vehicle will not stop as good as the stock set up. Even if the disk conversion is set up AS GOOD AS the stock set up, and will slide the front and rear tires evenly, it then comes down to how good the driver is to brake as hard as possible without lock up.

I'm sure my two daily drivers will outstop my '54 (even the first stop), but I wonder if a '54 and up V8 Stude will stop as good as one with a disk brake conversion (assuming the brake components on both are in good condition)?

-Dick-

Roscomacaw
12-29-2005, 09:53 PM
I'm gonna agree with Dick here. The late Stude V8 drum brakes are VERY powerful. The Stude experts will proclaim they're at least as good as the Stude discs were - for the first few hard stops in succession. After that, and in water, the discs have an edge.
As Dick says tho - how often you gonna encounter repeated panic stops or water deep enough to flood the drums?[:0]
IF I lived in mountainous territory, you can damn sure bet I'd have discs up front.;)

Miscreant at large.

1957 Transtar 1/2ton
1960 Larkvertible V8
1958 Provincial wagon
1953 Commander coupe
1957 President 2-dr
1955 President State
1951 Champion Biz cpe
1963 Daytona project FS

DEEPNHOCK
12-29-2005, 10:23 PM
I wouldn't ever do that![:0]
Jeff[8D]




Pot stirrer!;)


[/quote]
Ok, Jeff is going to accuse me of being a "pot stirrer" [8D], but here goes.
<snip>
[/quote]

Dick Steinkamp
12-29-2005, 10:43 PM
quote:Originally posted by DEEPNHOCK

Pot stirrer!;)



Takes one to know one :D

-Dick-

Roscomacaw
12-29-2005, 10:54 PM
From one Jeff Rice: RE: Pot-stirring....
"I wouldn't ever do that!"

OK, so there's TWO Jeff Rices then.[}:)] The other one was here just awhile ago.;)

Miscreant at large.

1957 Transtar 1/2ton
1960 Larkvertible V8
1958 Provincial wagon
1953 Commander coupe
1957 President 2-dr
1955 President State
1951 Champion Biz cpe
1963 Daytona project FS

64Avanti
12-30-2005, 02:18 AM
Well when I was about 17 (in 1968) I decided that I needed to stop a 1960 Hawk from about 105 MPH and that was such a bad experience that I took the car home and pulled all of the brakes off. I had a front disk setup for a Studebaker and installed that. I then went to the local wrecking yard for Jags and purchased a set of rear Jag Dunlop calipers and the front disks from an XKE. I designed a set of brackets and removed the rear brake drum from the hub and had the rotor machined to fit the hub. I now had 4 wheel disk brakes and no more braking problems.

Now you wouldn't want to make too many stops from 100+ MPH but the brakes were much better than the drums. I do recall some road tests from the 50's stating that the Studebaker drum brakes were great, but from my experience I can only say the other cars of that era must have been realy bad.

David L

DEEPNHOCK
12-30-2005, 07:02 AM
It's true...
Life is unfair...
My wife says she swears I am bi-polar sometimes...
Then she add's "Since you're bi-polar, you should be able to do twice as much stuff around here"..
Jeff (and Jeff)[8D]



quote:Originally posted by Mr.Biggs
OK, so there's TWO Jeff Rices then.[}:)] The other one was here just awhile ago.;)

DEEPNHOCK
12-30-2005, 07:14 AM
I don't lnow if I'd condemn all Stude brakes because of a self induced scare 30+ years ago. Not slamming you, but think about what you just said. Studebaker brakes were...adequate (from a manufacturer's point of view) for their time.
What's changed? The entire industry changed, due to mandates from the fed's on stopping distances. This forced the industry to change. Hence the advent of disc brake technology. Then the gas shortage of the seventies brought another change...lighter vehicles. Smaller cars.
So that old drum brake Stude has a double curse on it... Everything (well, most everything) stops shorter, and with less fade. Then add a few million more cars on the roadways... This makes the game of go fast/stop fast more 'interesting' with a Stude. So I fully understand the need to upgrade to disk brakes. I am sure that an entire custom setup could be built from a miriad of parts. I would hope that people would support the good Studebaker vendors that have researched and developed these kits (and ask who has liability insurance on their brake kits people) for us Studebaker enthusiasts. We need this kind of vendor support to keep our projects running. Imagine doing your Studebaker without a single Stude vendor?
Not whining...Just observing...
Jeff[8D]



quote:Originally posted by 64Avanti

Well when I was about 17 (in 1968) I decided that I needed to stop a 1960 Hawk from about 105 MPH and that was such a bad experience that I took the car home and pulled all of the brakes off. I had a front disk setup for a Studebaker and installed that. I then went to the local wrecking yard for Jags and purchased a set of rear Jag Dunlop calipers and the front disks from an XKE. I designed a set of brackets and removed the rear brake drum from the hub and had the rotor machined to fit the hub. I now had 4 wheel disk brakes and no more braking problems.

Now you wouldn't want to make too many stops from 100+ MPH but the brakes were much better than the drums. I do recall some road tests from the 50's stating that the Studebaker drum brakes were great, but from my experience I can only say the other cars of that era must have been realy bad.

David L


DEEPNHOCK at Cox.net
'37 Coupe Express
'37 Coupe Express Trailer
'61 Hawk
http://community.webshots.com/photo/42559113/426827941Lsvfrz
http://community.webshots.com/user/deepnhock

Swifster
12-30-2005, 08:45 AM
I guess my question is for the other end of the car...why use the Ford rear when a Dana 44 isn't that hard to find? As for the rear disc issue, it greatly depends on the car. As most braking forces are primarily handled by the fronts, I question the need for rear discs. The rear drum set up will actually be lighter that the disc system and will be sufficent to safely stop the car even with repeated hard stops.

Having raced in SCCA events with my Suzuki Swift, I've used both rear disc and rear drum. With weight as a premium, and with no performance penalty, I run with rear drums and save the extra 15-20 lbs.

Now, having said that, there IS a certain bling factor in having rear discs. If the car will have wheels that are 'open' enough to show off the fancy hardware, that would probably offset the weight penalty.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Tom - Sterling Heights, MI

Ancient Chinese Proverb: "Injection is nice, but I'd rather be blown!"

1964 Studebaker Daytona - Laguna Blue, Original 4-Spd. Car, Power Steering, Disc Brakes, Bucket Seats, Tinted Glass, Climatizer Ventilation System, AM Radio (136,989 Miles)

Dan White
12-30-2005, 09:23 AM
Not even sure a Dana 44 is needed. The car is a 53 Champion, so the 27 rear should be plenty stout enough, w or w/o disk brakes. I agree I would stick with the drums in the rear, not worth the cost or time to install.

Dan White
64 R1 GT
64 R2 GT

N8N
12-30-2005, 09:30 AM
2 reasons to use the Ford rear - 1) people who drive in an "assertive" manner may be worried about tapered axles shearing, and also 2) the Ford rear offers the ability to change ratios quickly; you could have, say, a 4.11 gearset for trips to the strip and a 3.08 or something for road trips. You could even throw the 4.11s in the trunk if you were going to a strip a long distance away :)

That said, I haven't been motivated to switch yet, as the 44 is sufficient for the kind of driving I do.

I too like the stock drums and find them adequate. Part of the appeal to me is the lack of need for a power booster, providing the best possible pedal feel. However, were a Stude my daily driver I would still give serious thought to swapping to discs anyway. I am told that while the stock Stude discs require a power booster, that the Turner brakes don't necessarily need it, therefore I would probably go for the Turner kit for cost reasons (my car has manual drums currently) ease of installation and theoretically better pedal feel. I believe Turner also provides stainless braided hoses with his kit which should improve pedal feel even more.

nate

--
55 Commander Starlight
62 Daytona hardtop
http://home.comcast.net/~njnagel

N8N
12-30-2005, 09:32 AM
Just noticed that the original vehicle under discussion was a Champion; a quick and easy upgrade would be to bolt on 54-up V-8 brakes. Especially the later finned drums (used 56-up on the most powerful models.) Just grab everything from the backing plates out from a parts car (front AND rear) and they will bolt right on, you can even reuse your hoses.

nate

--
55 Commander Starlight
62 Daytona hardtop
http://home.comcast.net/~njnagel

tstclr
12-30-2005, 10:10 AM
My Dana 44 had no rear brakes attached when I bought it. As far as costs go, would I be better off to go rear disc using the Turner brackets, Cadillac calipers (with integral parking brakes) and Ford rotors rather than trying to find NOS backing plates, hardware, cylinders, shoes and drums?

Todd


63 Lark 2dr Sedan

N8N
12-30-2005, 10:34 AM
You might be able to find a set of used rears needing only wheel cylinders and maybe shoes if you post here and to the newsgroup asking for leftovers from someone doing a Turner conversion... however if you really want discs don't let me talk you out of it, they are cool.

nate

--
55 Commander Starlight
62 Daytona hardtop
http://home.comcast.net/~njnagel

Dick Steinkamp
12-30-2005, 12:27 PM
quote:Originally posted by DEEPNHOCK

What's changed? The entire industry changed, due to mandates from the fed's on stopping distances. This forced the industry to change. Hence the advent of disc brake technology.




Another thing that has changed is tires. IMHO, two cars of the same weight, both with braking systems that will slide all 4 tires evenly, the car with the fattest tires will brake shorter.

Rod and Custom Magazine does this Ego-Rama thing where they annually take 6-7 hot rods and put them through their paces over a several day "road test". The braking winner this year was the heaviest car...a '56 Olds (disk brakes). It stopped 60-0 in 133' (by comparison, the '47 Ford - full 4th generation Corvette suspension and brakes - stopped in 176'. The Olds wore 245/45ZR17's in front and 285/40 ZR17's in the rear. The Ford had 205/50ZR16's in front and 255/50ZR18's in back. I believe the tires were a big factor in the difference.

Unfortunately, the braking for most of our Studes is handicaped by the size of the tire we can get into the fender wells (without some major modifications).

Take two identical Larks (down to the tires) except one has 4 wheel disks and one has stock drums. Both braking systems are capable of sliding all 4 tires evenly. Same driver, same course. IMHO, both cars will stop in the same distance. Put fatter tires on one of the cars and that car (regardless if it's the disk brake car or the drum car) will stop shorter.

I know the SDC can't officially be involved in competition events, but it would be great if some of us could "unofficially" put together a Stop-a-Thon at Omaha (just as it would be pretty neat to rent the local drag strip for an evening)

-Dick-

Roscomacaw
12-30-2005, 03:20 PM
Good to see Dick, Jeff and even Nate standing up for the V8 drum setup. They're GOOD brakes if you're not planning to run a road course, flat out.
Even the later 6cyl brakes can be an upgrade over 53 and earlier brakes, V8 or 6. Thing is, there's too many V8 donor cars out there to resort to using late 6 brakes.
And I might add that WHILE there's still late V8 cars in wrecking yards to scavenge, it's worth one's time to buy them (assuming the yard doesn't try to rape your wallet)either for your own project or to make a buck on ebay![:0]
New wheel cylinders are cheap! Hoses ain't bad either. Drums can be had if needed or old ones may bear turning a time or two. With so many Studes being brought back to life, we need to conserve and recycle what we can that keeps them in the affordable range.:D

Miscreant at large.

1957 Transtar 1/2ton
1960 Larkvertible V8
1958 Provincial wagon
1953 Commander coupe
1957 President 2-dr
1955 President State
1951 Champion Biz cpe
1963 Daytona project FS

64Avanti
12-30-2005, 03:32 PM
Jeff,

When I decided that my 60 Hawk had inadequate brakes in 1968 there were many cars with disk brakes. Just because they may have been considered adequate in the late 50's and early 60's didn't make them adequate.

My car had a .060 over 289 with a R1/R2 cam and a 2bl converted to 4bl intake with AFB from a Buick. Suspension was same as a super Hawk including rear sway bar and traction bars with Koni shocks and radial ply tires. With a 3 speed overdrive transmission this car would run in 15's in the quarter. Point is the brakes were the worst part of the car and I didn't consider them adequate. I wasn't scared by stopping from 100+ MPH, it just wasn't what I considered good performance and I had experience with other cars with much better brakes including Studebakers with disc brakes.

David L

64Avanti
12-30-2005, 03:40 PM
I should have added ... If you like your drum brakes then keep them.

I have always looked at things from the standpoint of what can I do to make it better. After all I have been an engineer for over 30 years and that is what I get paid to do. Of course even before I had my degree I was looking at things that way.

Anyway those who are happy with their drum brakes it is ok to believe that. Those of us who want more from our cars have done something else.

David L

DEEPNHOCK
12-30-2005, 07:57 PM
The Ford 9" is tough, and easy to swap the 'nugget' to change gear ratio's. You can do it at the track. (Watch me at Omaha...Maybe)...
But the 9" Ford rear has seen it's day..price wise. It is now getting as expensive as C/K front fenders...
Jeff[8D]



quote:Originally posted by Swifster

I guess my question is for the other end of the car...why use the Ford rear when a Dana 44 isn't that hard to find? <snip>

DEEPNHOCK at Cox.net
'37 Coupe Express
'37 Coupe Express Trailer
'61 Hawk
http://community.webshots.com/photo/42559113/426827941Lsvfrz
http://community.webshots.com/user/deepnhock

DEEPNHOCK
12-30-2005, 08:04 PM
Makes sense..
My '61 Hawk has the stock. manual 11" finned brakes and (when it was on the road) it would stop just fine. Now, I will admit that my current ride, with the 4 wheel, hydroboost assisted, disk brakes will make that old Hawk look lame... That Hawk still stopped OK...
Jeff (But I can stop shorter now, just using one toe;)...) Rice[8D]



quote:Originally posted by 64Avanti

Jeff,
When I decided that my 60 Hawk had inadequate brakes in 1968 there were many cars with disk brakes. Just because they may have been considered adequate in the late 50's and early 60's didn't make them adequate.
My car had a .060 over 289 with a R1/R2 cam and a 2bl converted to 4bl intake with AFB from a Buick. Suspension was same as a super Hawk including rear sway bar and traction bars with Koni shocks and radial ply tires. With a 3 speed overdrive transmission this car would run in 15's in the quarter. Point is the brakes were the worst part of the car and I didn't consider them adequate. I wasn't scared by stopping from 100+ MPH, it just wasn't what I considered good performance and I had experience with other cars with much better brakes including Studebakers with disc brakes.
David L


DEEPNHOCK at Cox.net
'37 Coupe Express
'37 Coupe Express Trailer
'61 Hawk
http://community.webshots.com/photo/42559113/426827941Lsvfrz
http://community.webshots.com/user/deepnhock

bing kunzig
12-31-2005, 02:25 PM
I have two questions regarding this topic. 1. If you do this conversion do you need a power booster? ( I would think peddle effort would be decreased somewhat with the conversion alone). 2. Can you still get good finned drums? Mine don't have a lot of life left. HAPPY NEW YEAR!!

N8N
12-31-2005, 04:48 PM
I was told by Jim Turner that if you use the manual brake pedal and pushrod that the power booster is not required. Pedal effort should theoretically go *up* with discs as the factory drums are self energizing but apparently this is not significant.

I think Jim Turner was having new finned drums made but sold out and isn't making any more, so you're pretty much limited to looking for good used ones.

nate

--
55 Commander Starlight
62 Daytona hardtop
http://home.comcast.net/~njnagel

Laemmle
12-31-2005, 05:30 PM
Peter Crisitello has a '63 black Avanti.....he removed the entire Bendix/Dunlop setup, including master cylinder and power booster and installed V8 DRUM BRAKES and a drum brake master cylinder....he asserts that the car stops much better...and never has any problems. This with no power booster.

tstclr
12-31-2005, 06:37 PM
Here's another question: Is there another make of car or truck that came factory with a Dana 44? I thought I heard the Dodge Ramchargers had them. If this is the case, couldn't you swap a complete rear drum brake setup from one of these models? I'd assume if the Ramcharger had this rear end, the drum brakes would be bigger than the Studebaker. With discs up front and larger drums on the rear, I would think the stopping power would be excellent.

Todd


63 Lark 2dr Sedan

Dan White
12-31-2005, 07:55 PM
The Dana 44 has been used in numerous vehicles over time, and is still in use to my knowledge. Both front (4WD, my '79 Jeep J20 has a Dana 44 front axle) and rear configurations, even the Corvette has used the Dana 44. However the width is different for different applications, also the location of the spring perches. You need to keep in mind that the number designation is really for the center section/differential setup, not the entire axle assembly. Most of the center section Dana 44 parts are interchangeable (ring, pinon, lockup mechanism, etc.) The Studebaker width is fairly unique to it. There are a number of aftermarket companies that can modify any axle almost to fit any application but that is $$$$.

Dan White
64 R1 GT
64 R2 GT

N8N
12-31-2005, 08:10 PM
If you really want maximum bang for your buck, I'd concentrate on the front wheels first, as they do most of the work.

The Avantis used 11" drums in the rear; if you really wanted to get creative you might be able to modify some V-8 *front* backing plates to mount on the rear to use the larger drums with self-energizing shoes, but it seems hardly worth the effort when disc kits are available. Also I'd be worried that the rears would actually now be more effective than the fronts, necessitating the addition of a proportioning valve (I like to KISS)

I doubt that other vehicles using a Dana 44 used the same flange on the axle ends; I assume that is where you were headed with your question...

nate

--
55 Commander Starlight
62 Daytona hardtop
http://home.comcast.net/~njnagel

64Avanti
12-31-2005, 09:07 PM
I would not use self energizing brakes on the rear. Disk brakes have a linear nature while the self energizing brakes are non linear. If you push on the brake pedal with 50 lbs of force you get X force at the wheel if you double the brake pedal force you double the force at the wheel. If you have self energizing brakes and double the brake pedal force the force at the wheel will not be double it will be something higher like 3 times or 4 times the original force.

Many of the cars of the 60's with disk brakes used self energizing rears and just used a proportioning valve or sometimes a pressure limiting valve to compensate. This was not the best choice but it was less expensive than using different brakes on the rear compared to the drum only cars. The Studebakers tended to stop better than other 60's cars with disks because the brakes were fairly well proportioned. The Avanti could have used a little more force on the front but the Hawks were just about right.

Anyway you can use a proportioning valve but beware that you can't just throw any front brakes on with any rear brakes and expect them to work very well unless you are very lucky. Rear brakes that lock-up before the fronts can be very dangerous and result in the car going sideways or spinning under hard braking. If you live in an area where you can find some ice in a large clear area just apply the emergancy brake and see what happens.

David L

Alan
12-31-2005, 10:57 PM
The Dodge Ramchargers used a Dana 60 bigger than a Ford 9" and more weight.