PDA

View Full Version : small block chevies in a 50 champ



gotti210
12-06-2005, 10:29 PM
does any one out there have any pointers for installing a small block chevy in a 50 champ

and maybe you can answer a few questions

do you have to move or replace the stock steering box
if no will headers clear the stock box (what brand and where did you get them)

will a stock radiator with a large elect fan cool a small block chevy
if no what do you recommend

that covers the only two major questions i have

what about you guys have you run into any other probs with this conversion

Stude4x4
12-06-2005, 11:10 PM
You chose a topic that will open up a can of worms. The only problem I can think of with installing a chevy into your Stude is the Stude V8 will give you better results. Just my opinion and if you want to put the chevy in then its your choice.

-Home of John Studebaker-
http://community.webshots.com/user/Stude4x4

gotti210
12-06-2005, 11:16 PM
the only thing i see wrong with the stude v8 vs chevy is that
down here in tx

i only know where there i 1 stude v8 its in a 53 and the car has no hood and no intake and in the weather

so id bet my milk and cookies that it is way past salvageable


and ive got 4 complete chevy small blocks in my garage as we speak

whacker
12-07-2005, 12:03 AM
I have never done this swap, however I do know (and have seen) one done like that. The major problem was the clearance for the stock steering. This was a 50 starlight coupe, the front motor mounts were custom fabbed instead of the common Hurst front mount, so the engine sits up closer to the radiator. Yes, he used the stock radiator with an electric fan for cooling, and it fit OK. The problem is not in the front, but at the firewall. You may have to cut out the firewall to fit the engine in. The best fit I have seen in the shorter 50 doghouse is the 4.3L V6, but you may not have any of those laying around. Just as an aside, the Stude V8 doesn't fit in the 50 doghouse either, and is longer than the SBC V8, and also gives steering clearance problems. You do have the option in the 1950 doghouse of mounting the engine higher than you can in the 53/54 coupes, so exhaust is less of a problem, and you should have no clearance problems with the exhaust.

whacker
12-07-2005, 12:09 AM
On the 50, headers clearing the stock steering box is not the problem, the problem is clearance for the reach rod to the kingpin pivot. The reach rod will have to run right through the oil pan, or you will have to come up with an oil pan that clears the king pin bell crank lever. It can be done, it is not easy.

DEEPNHOCK
12-07-2005, 08:11 AM
Yes, it will fit in there with no major interference.
But....
You will need to build a new 4 core radiator....period.
You will need to fabricate new engine mounts.
You will need to make a new rear crossmember.
You will need to custom build a new exhaust system.
Yow will need to fabricate a new shift linkage.
You will need to fabricate a new throttle linkage.
You will need to fabricate a new trans shift kickdown linkage.
You will need to shorten and balance your driveshaft.
You will need to change the yoke on your driveshaft to the new trans.
You will need to update the wiring to 12 volts.
You will need to update the brakes.
You will need to put in new front springs (if going from a 6 to an 8)
You will need to save up money for the new rear end you will need in a few thousand miles.
You will need to save up for the flak jacket you'll need from the Stude engine in a Stude crowd.
Other than the normal pita swap stuff...it is a fairly normal swap.
Jeff[8D]





quote:Originally posted by gotti210

does any one out there have any pointers for installing a small block chevy in a 50 champ

and maybe you can answer a few questions

do you have to move or replace the stock steering box
if no will headers clear the stock box (what brand and where did you get them)

will a stock radiator with a large elect fan cool a small block chevy
if no what do you recommend

that covers the only two major questions i have

what about you guys have you run into any other probs with this conversion


DEEPNHOCK at Cox.net
'37 Coupe Express
'37 Coupe Express Trailer
'61 Hawk
http://community.webshots.com/photo/42559113/426827941Lsvfrz
http://community.webshots.com/user/deepnhock

Roscomacaw
12-07-2005, 09:41 AM
And what no one has offered here is that it's gona be just as tough to drop a Stude V8 in there too! That said, I would readily understand wanting to upgrade to SOMEthing more powerful.[:0][:p][}:)]:D
If this were a '51, I'd have different personal preferances for a transplant since '51 WAS the first year of a Stude V8 and consequently, one such engine would feel right at home there. [8D]

I've thought for a long time that for real tractability, a V6 would be a better choice for alternate power in these pre-51 Studes. You can get good service out of many V6s now and certainly hang all the amenities on them with ease. But beyond that, it looks to me (not like I've tried it, mind you) like it'd be much easier to shoehorn one into a 50 (or earlier) Stude.
Of course, other considerations will be brakes, rear axle, steering, etc., etc..

Some years ago (are y'all sittin' down for this???[}:)]) I had access to several Subaru flat 6 engines that were custom-prepared for racing. I can't remember now exactly but they had phenomenal
HP ratings![:0] And what appealed to me about it was that it would be something TRULY "custom" as opposed to the tired, old, JC Whitney-bedecked SBC.
Imagine that![:p] A "custom" that sported something other than a cookie-cutter approach to repowering!

Of course, I surrender all this silliness to gotti here - with his garage-ful of SBCs to deal with. And I submit that he yank the 6 and swing an SBC in there on a hoist and get an honest feel for what he's gonna be up against.
Like any project of this nature, it's all real easy save for the doin'. :D

Miscreant at large.

1957 Transtar 1/2ton
1960 Larkvertible V8
1958 Provincial wagon
1953 Commander coupe
1957 President 2-dr
1955 President State
1951 Champion Biz cpe
1963 Daytona project FS

Swifster
12-07-2005, 10:15 AM
quote:Originally posted by DEEPNHOCK

Yes, it will fit in there with no major interference.
But....
You will need to build a new 4 core radiator....period.
You will need to fabricate new engine mounts.
You will need to make a new rear crossmember.
You will need to custom build a new exhaust system.
Yow will need to fabricate a new shift linkage.
You will need to fabricate a new throttle linkage.
You will need to fabricate a new trans shift kickdown linkage.
You will need to shorten and balance your driveshaft.
You will need to change the yoke on your driveshaft to the new trans.
You will need to update the wiring to 12 volts.
You will need to update the brakes.
You will need to put in new front springs (if going from a 6 to an 8)
You will need to save up money for the new rear end you will need in a few thousand miles.
You will need to save up for the flak jacket you'll need from the Stude engine in a Stude crowd.
Other than the normal pita swap stuff...it is a fairly normal swap.
Jeff[8D]

Everything Jeff has listed would be true. With any project, planning is very important. You need to decide how far you want to go with this. Many frame and hot rod shops sell Mustang II kits that will work with the Stude frame, change the steering to rack & pinion and will upgrade your front brakes at the same time.

Personally, I'd also look at using the 4.3L V-6 or a 3.8L (with supercharger :) ). The V-6's are reliable, make good power and are rather compact. They will also use just about any GM transmission you'd want to use. The 4.3L has the advantage of using the same front accessory drives and brackets that are used on the SBC.

A 8.8" rear end from a Ranger or Mustang should fit reasonably well and they are strong enough for all but high horse applications. Many of the items listed by Jeff are available from various sources and can be engineered to fit.

As a final note, when you change one item on a car, it effects something else, and when you make THAT change, it will effect other things, and it goes on and on. The project pretty much takes on a life of it's own. This isn't said to scare you off your project, but more to give you a realistic idea of what you'll face.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Tom - Sterling Heights, MI

Ancient Chinese Proverb: "Injection is nice, but I'd rather be blown!"

1964 Studebaker Daytona - Laguna Blue, Original 4-Spd. Car, Power Steering, Disc Brakes, Bucket Seats, Tinted Glass, Climatizer Ventilation System, AM Radio (136,989 Miles)

Dan White
12-07-2005, 10:52 AM
Hey Mr. Biggs nothing wrong with a Subbie flat 6! I have an SVX and it runs great. Also, why not go for a WRX-STi motor while you are at it. Flat four turbo charged and intercooled. One of my friends just got one out of a slightly burned '05 WRX, 300hp out of 2.5 liters (152.5 ci)!

Dan White
64 R1 GT
64 R2 GT

gotti210
12-07-2005, 11:43 AM
well jeff some of the stuff on that list ive already nailed

i had a freebie set of weld draglites that were (2) 14x6s & (2) 15x8.5 with reverse backspacing

and you cant look a gift horse in the face
well the stock stude rearend was to wide for these rims alone without evan having any tires on them so i did my home work and installed a late model s-10 rearend which left me with 1/2" clearence with the tires i chose

a s-10 rear will hold th horsepower cause we put one in a t-bucket about 3 yrs ago that had a bbc in it and have had no problems


now on brakes (back to the freebie wheels) i needed something with 4 1/2" bolt circle so i upgraded to the 11" 53 stude brakes and have plans of doing another upgrade to disc somewhere down the line

exhaust not a problem im a authorized flowmaster dealer and have the best prices in the us

radiator has already been upgraded
i had a friend that had a custom radiator built for a blown & nitroed 426 hemi that he had plans of putting in a henry j but suddenly all the plans changed and i purchased that particulair radiator from him

also already did a twelve volt conversion on the existing stude 6 ( chrome one wire 100 amp gm alt )

and im a machinest by trade so the kustom fab of crossmember - throotle linkage - motor mounts and so on not a problem either

my biggest concern is clearence of that darn steering box
cause i really dont wanna have to move it or fab up another one nor do i really wanna change to a mustard front end cuase i already have alot of dough in this stude frontend ( new bushings shocks tyrod ends and 53 brakes from the spindle out)

one question tho whats a flak jacket ( something to protect me from all the flack ill get from stude peeps)

if so not a problem cause down here in sa tx there isnt very many stude peep that go to the kinda shows we go to (StreetRods NSRA GoodGuys and so on)

any other probs you guys out there may foresee with this particulair swap

tstclr
12-07-2005, 12:53 PM
MAYBE a Buick/Olds all aluminum 215 C.I V8 will fit. This engine was sold to Rover and was used up till a few years ago. Parts are plentiful, the engine is reliable and you can get some decent HP out of them. Not sure on the dimensions but they are smaller than a 350 Chevy and lighter than a lot of 4 cylinder engines! Many guys are putting them into MG's and Triumphs and they have small engine bays.. Gee, now that I think of it, mabye I should consider this as a replacement for the 6 in my Lark!
Check out www.aluminumv8.com
Todd


63 Lark 2dr Sedan

whacker
12-07-2005, 01:51 PM
gotti, I'm telling you you won't have any problem, or not much of a problem, with the steering box. The 1950 frame mounts the engine higher and farther forward than the later larks and hawks, The steering problem you are going to be facing is at the other end of the steering mechanism - the center pinion bell crank for the kingpin style steering. The reach rod and the center bell crank will interfer with the engine oil pan. There are a few solutions, one of which is to use the 1 1/2 inch shorter Avanti quick steering arm, another is to heat the stock arm and bend it down out of the way, another is to raise the engine, another is to get an oil pan that won't interfer. I'm not that familiar with SBC oil pans, but I've heard that there is an oil pan used in the mid 60's vans that has the sump farther back.

prager
12-07-2005, 02:49 PM
Gotti, this is YOUR car right?? Put any motor in you want!! I've got a Chevy v-8 in my 62 Lark.. Let the purists say what they want..I live in South Bend, you bet I could have found a ton of Stude v-8's..My car my choice..Chevy engine..Heres another one for the purists...My Great Grandfather, Grandfather, and yes Father all worked there...The only one still alive is my Father..he gives me a hand with the car now and then..and could not care less about the engine,the car itself is still a Studebaker...My god if one of the diehards had a heart transplant..you'd better throw him out of the club...he just wouldn't be himself anymore... (a reply to the flak comments..:D) Good luck..all in all the project sounds like you have enough free parts to make a good go of it!!

Mike Van Veghten
12-07-2005, 02:59 PM
Jeff...

Wouldn't a four "core" radiator be really, really thick?

We know you ment, a single core with four (copper) row's of tubes or two rows of tubes with an aluminum cored radiator.

Gotti210 -

Don't let'em scare ya. With a little time, some custom building abilities or good friend with same...it's not that big a deal. If that's what you want....do it. I've got three Studes, two are Stude powered, and one I'm proud to say is CHEVY powered.

DEEPNHOCK
12-07-2005, 07:01 PM
Sounds like you have a handle on the deal...
Have fun with it!
Jeff[8D]



quote:Originally posted by gotti210

well jeff some of the stuff on that list ive already nailed

i had a freebie set of weld draglites that were (2) 14x6s & (2) 15x8.5 with reverse backspacing

and you cant look a gift horse in the face
well the stock stude rearend was to wide for these rims alone without evan having any tires on them so i did my home work and installed a late model s-10 rearend which left me with 1/2" clearence with the tires i chose

a s-10 rear will hold th horsepower cause we put one in a t-bucket about 3 yrs ago that had a bbc in it and have had no problems


now on brakes (back to the freebie wheels) i needed something with 4 1/2" bolt circle so i upgraded to the 11" 53 stude brakes and have plans of doing another upgrade to disc somewhere down the line

exhaust not a problem im a authorized flowmaster dealer and have the best prices in the us

radiator has already been upgraded
i had a friend that had a custom radiator built for a blown & nitroed 426 hemi that he had plans of putting in a henry j but suddenly all the plans changed and i purchased that particulair radiator from him

also already did a twelve volt conversion on the existing stude 6 ( chrome one wire 100 amp gm alt )

and im a machinest by trade so the kustom fab of crossmember - throotle linkage - motor mounts and so on not a problem either

my biggest concern is clearence of that darn steering box
cause i really dont wanna have to move it or fab up another one nor do i really wanna change to a mustard front end cuase i already have alot of dough in this stude frontend ( new bushings shocks tyrod ends and 53 brakes from the spindle out)

one question tho whats a flak jacket ( something to protect me from all the flack ill get from stude peeps)

if so not a problem cause down here in sa tx there isnt very many stude peep that go to the kinda shows we go to (StreetRods NSRA GoodGuys and so on)

any other probs you guys out there may foresee with this particulair swap


DEEPNHOCK at Cox.net
'37 Coupe Express
'37 Coupe Express Trailer
'61 Hawk
http://community.webshots.com/photo/42559113/426827941Lsvfrz
http://community.webshots.com/user/deepnhock

DEEPNHOCK
12-07-2005, 07:16 PM
You said it better than I did...
I meant a four row re-core (vertical) using the old tanks..
Jeff[8D]




quote:Originally posted by Mike Van Veghten

Jeff...

Wouldn't a four "core" radiator be really, really thick?

We know you ment, a single core with four (copper) row's of tubes or two rows of tubes with an aluminum cored radiator.

Gotti210 -

Don't let'em scare ya. With a little time, some custom building abilities or good friend with same...it's not that big a deal. If that's what you want....do it. I've got three Studes, two are Stude powered, and one I'm proud to say is CHEVY powered.


DEEPNHOCK at Cox.net
'37 Coupe Express
'37 Coupe Express Trailer
'61 Hawk
http://community.webshots.com/photo/42559113/426827941Lsvfrz
http://community.webshots.com/user/deepnhock

Roscomacaw
12-07-2005, 07:21 PM
If you don't mind me askin' - WHY did you go with the 53 brakes?
It was '54 that saw the debut of the MUCH improved, self-energizing brakes on Studes. Like I said - just askin'.:)

Miscreant at large.

1957 Transtar 1/2ton
1960 Larkvertible V8
1958 Provincial wagon
1953 Commander coupe
1957 President 2-dr
1955 President State
1951 Champion Biz cpe
1963 Daytona project FS

gotti210
12-08-2005, 08:20 PM
well biggs i dont kno all this stude history stuff nor do i know the years all that well but they came off of a stude with the body style that stared in 53 and they are self energizing so i guess they are 54 or newer

my dad says it was a 57 but then again he doesnt kno the body styles of studes for beans so im thinking maybe 54 or newer based on the info you just gave me

DilloCrafter
12-08-2005, 08:34 PM
Careful, Biggsy - like we say around here, "Don't mess with Texas" [8D]

BTW - Thanks, Mr. Biggs, for all that info on the speedometer adapters in another post.

1955 1/2 Ton Pickup
http://rocketdillo.com/studebaker/misc/images/current_AvaCar.gif

Hawk5619
12-08-2005, 10:16 PM
I would keep the flathead 6. I like the way mine crusies around in great style. If I want to go fast with some power I crack out the 66 chevelle pro street car with the 406 small block.
That old studie front end was not made for SPEED!!

Rick
50 Champion
60 Lark
63 Hawk

oldvinyl
12-10-2005, 08:57 PM
Please keep it stock. Buy an old Chevy II and drop your chevy small block into that, Tom

N8N
12-10-2005, 09:26 PM
welll... actually... isn't the '50 champ front end pretty much the same one they used up until the end, but with steel inner bushings instead of rubber?

nate

--
55 Commander Starlight
62 Daytona hardtop
http://home.comcast.net/~njnagel

Alan
12-10-2005, 09:53 PM
N8; I think it is the sheet metal that makes a difference. Even though the a arms are the same the 50 wasn't built for a V8.

gecoe
12-10-2005, 11:11 PM
The 50 front end is a one of a kind. AFAIK nothing before or after is like it in that it makes use of an idler arm. I haven't personally tried but I'm told that you can't even put a six out of a 51 Champion in the 50 without changing to the 50 pan so the steering will clear.

Gerry

whacker
12-10-2005, 11:25 PM
The 1950 and the 1951 are both landmark Studes. Even though they look very much alike, you would be amazed to find how few parts interchange. The 1950 is the last year of the old style frame and suspension, and 1951 is the first year of the newer style, also the first year of the V8. If you look at the area right at the back of the front wheel wells, you can see the difference. The distance from the back of the front wheel well to the firewall end of the fender on the 50 is about 3 inches, the same place on the 51 is about 7 inches. These are referred to as the "short" and the "long" fenders. The 50 has the knuckle shock absorbers and the front leafs, the 51 has the hydraulic shocks and the front coil springs. The 1951 frame is the last, and most modern of the Studebaker frames, and continued with only minor variations right up to the end - and beyond into the Avanti and Avanti 2. This is why the installation of a V8 is difficult on the 50 and earlier frames, and also why is is so easy on the 51 and newer frames. The 1950 frame goes back to the prewar Skyway Champion.

Build a man a fire and you warm him for a night. Set a man on fire and you warm him for the rest of his life!

gotti210
12-11-2005, 02:19 AM
i beg the differ there whacker

my 50 was 100% stock when i aquired it and it has coil springs with shocks thru the center ( not leafs )

unless i understood your post wrong youve been misinformed or miseducated on when the coil frontend was introduced unless maybe your talkin about a 50 & 51 truck

weve been talkin about the cars
and on the cars 50 was the first year of production of coils in the passenger car studebakers

Roscomacaw
12-11-2005, 03:37 PM
He's right, Whacker. The leaf spring front lasted thru the '49 models. The 50 was a stand-alone year as far as the front suspension goes. I almost think of it as a transitional phase. It's A-arms, kingpins, etc, etc, were peculiar to 1950 alone. It's steering (the Champion's) is alot more "busy" than what was settled on for the 51 and later cars as well. The 50 Commander is quite different from the 50 Champion in it's steering arrangement and to a degree - different in it's suspension components over the Champion. While it's not the same, it's steering setup was closer to that that was intro'd in 51 and served thru 66.[:I] Unlike the 51s, the 50 Commander's front fenders are vastly different from those on the Champion. They only LOOK similar at a glance.[}:)]
You're right tho, about the Champion's front fenders being shorter than those of the 51s - aft of the wheel wells. Alot of fender seekers have been distraught after they scored a fender or two only to find it didn't fit their particular bulletnose Stude!:(
Nate, the 50 did have steel (greasable) bushings on the inner A-arm shafts, but they're different from what the 51-52 cars had. In looking at the parts books again, I see that the ONLY thing the 50's share with later cars is the upper, inner A-arm shaft itself! Everything else (including the bushings that ride on that shaft) is different.[:0]
As gecoe says, the 50 engine would fit later cars by swapping the oil pan around.[^]
1950 was an interesting and profitable year for Studebaker. I think that since they were gonna debut their shiny, new V8 for '51, they decided it was time to revise the whole front underpinnings to where the same basic parts could be shared under either the 6 or the V8. It makes sense from a bean counter's standpoint to have as much commonality of parts as is practical.
The 50 models make you assume that they hadn't thought of a V8 when the 50's front ends were engineered to get away from the old leaf spring front. Otherwise it would have been more practical to aim for that eventual, new powerplant as opposed to accomodating the two different 6s they had.;)

Miscreant at large.

1957 Transtar 1/2ton
1960 Larkvertible V8
1958 Provincial wagon
1953 Commander coupe
1957 President 2-dr
1955 President State
1951 Champion Biz cpe
1963 Daytona project FS