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View Full Version : wanted 1st gear start VALVE BODY for 3-bander



jgw2
10-25-2005, 11:30 AM
I want to purchase a 1st-gear start VALVE BODY for a DG-200 to interchange with my 2nd-gear start valve body.

I understand that the '55 V8 Studebaker ALL had the 1-gear start valve body; also, I understand that all the 6-cyl 3-banders' from 1950-1955 ALL had the 1st-gear start valve body.

Surely someone has an extra one to sell to me. Just remove the pan from your spare tranny and there are 7 bolts that hold it in place, right on the bottom of the tranny.

Please e-mail me with details; THANKS.

John Williams
jgw2@bellsouth.net

Roscomacaw
10-25-2005, 04:26 PM
John,

Information I have -in print- indicates that only the '54-55-56 Champion and '55 V8 cars that had a 259cu.in. engine transmissions that were set up for 1st gear start. '54 and earlier V8 trannies weren't. '53 & earlier Champion trannies weren't 1st gear start either. I've got a Factory Studebaker Automatic transmission manual that clearly defines these facts.

To further confuse you - the parts books show that the same valve body (#529909) was used from 1950 (the intro year for this tranny) thru the earliest cars of 1955 (BOTH 6s and V8s!) The exception to that is the '50 Champion but even the "debut" factory Transmission manual shows that Champion and Commander both started in 2nd gear. Anyway, if the 54 Champion (that we KNOW started in 1st gear) and all the trannies prior, used the same valve body - I doubt you popping in a valve body from a later car is gonna give the desired results.
It would appear, from the evidence I've looked up, that to have 1st gear start, you need a complete DG-250M which was the only V8, 1st gear start tranny they ever used.
;)

Miscreant at large.

1957 Transtar 1/2ton
1960 Larkvertible V8
1958 Provincial wagon
1953 Commander coupe
1957 President 2-dr
1955 President State
1951 Champion Biz cpe
1963 Daytona project FS

studegary
10-25-2005, 11:40 PM
I believe that Bob/MrBiggs is correct again. If it was as simple as a valve body change, we wouldn't have switched transmissions to a DG250 in order to get first gear start in '53s. You may be confused by what you can do with the later style transmissions.

oldvinyl
10-26-2005, 12:25 AM
Mr. Biggs,and fellas , Do you have any trans serial model numbers? I have an early borg off a 259 Canadian engine It looks newly rebuilt. I hope that it has first gear start. My trans is the Short fixed yoke version., could be from a 51-52-53 ??? The car it came out of was a 53. B&M used to make stall converters for the Borg warner, atleast back in 1977. Any Info will be greatly appreciated. Tom

Roscomacaw
10-26-2005, 12:25 PM
If it's truly from a '50 thru '55 Stude, it'll have an ID plate on the left side. If the paint's not gone from that plate, it'll say DG-200 or DG250 on it (assuming it was a V8 version of this Detroit Gear tranny). One sure way to identify a DG from an FOM is that the DG has servo housings on the sides of the main case. The later Flight-o-Matic does not.
The later "Borg-Warner" you speak of, I suspect is what Studebaker called a Flight-o-Matic. It too has a painted metal tag that in many instances has lost it's paint over the years. If that's the case, the only numbers left on it are the stamped serial numbers which give NO clue as to what variant it is. If there's even a slight trace of the COLOR of paint the tag was done in (Blue, white, copper, etc..) that can tell what variant it was, ie: V8, 6cyl, HD, etc.. (Still talking FOM here - not DG)

I just had two FOM high stall TCs done for me at a cost of $160 each. These were created by a rebuilder from standard issue torque convertors. I don't know that such was ever offered for a DG tranny (with the lock-up TC)
The short tail shaft is not that good of a determing factor as the '56 & 57 FOMs had the short, fixed yoke tailshaft like the earlier DGs did.;)

Miscreant at large.

1957 Transtar 1/2ton
1960 Larkvertible V8
1958 Provincial wagon
1953 Commander coupe
1957 President 2-dr
1955 President State
1951 Champion Biz cpe
1963 Daytona project FS

oldvinyl
10-29-2005, 11:19 AM
Thanks Mr.Biggs, Ill get It looked at. I do have some of the newer FOMs aswell. $160. for converters is a song. I have never had any FOMs apart, looking at some schematics, It would appear that Its not the average back yard attempt. they all look well built. I wish a reverse shift valve body was avalable . Thanks again Tom.

oldvinyl
10-31-2005, 10:55 PM
Hi, My buddy Don, on the west coast of vancouver Island dug out my trans for Model and serial #s Its a DG-250M serial# SP 41271. Dont know anything about it. Tom

Roscomacaw
11-01-2005, 01:41 PM
That's a '55 only, 1st gear start tranny for use behind a V8! [:p]

Miscreant at large.

1957 Transtar 1/2ton
1960 Larkvertible V8
1958 Provincial wagon
1953 Commander coupe
1957 President 2-dr
1955 President State
1951 Champion Biz cpe
1963 Daytona project FS

oldvinyl
11-03-2005, 09:41 PM
Thanks, This Is great To know, Its Better than what I had planned. Tom.

jgw2
11-04-2005, 09:33 AM
I did some research from two sources, ATR in Anaconda, MT, plus Four C's in CA. The valve bodies do interchange and that is all that is necessary to convert a 2nd-gear start to a 1st-gear start. My "hard" parts had damage due to too low fluid pressures, so I purchased a DG-250 that is guaranteed to have excellent "hard" parts. I'll have my original DG-200 refitted with the excellent, undamaged "hard" parts, rebuild the torque converter at DACCO, new seals, new bands, new bushings, cleaned and repainted red as original. The critical part at the end of the rebuild to to do the "road" testing, so I typed up this series of tests that I will demand my rebuilder to perform so I KNOW that my tranny won't be damaged due to inadequate pressures. If I have enough room below here they are:
---------------------------------------------------------------------
PRESSURE TESTS & results requested:

- - - - - - - - DESIGN PRESSURES - - - - - - - - - RECORDED PRESSURES

FRONT PUMP

gauge, P or N, 1800 rpms, min. 80 PSI - - - - -_______________

FORWARD BAND SERVO

gauge, tach, brake, D, 1000 rpms, min. 70 PSI - -_______________

LOW BAND SERVO

gauge, tach, brake, L, 1000 rpms, min. 70 PSI - _______________

REVERSE BAND SERVO

R, gauge, brake, start, 1000 rpms, min. 180 PSI - _______________

MULTIPLE DISC CLUTCH

gauge, tach, wheels ^, D, 15 mph, min. 70 psi - -_______________

TORQUE CONVERTER

a. tach, N, 1000 rpms, min. 25-35 PSI - - - - - _______________

b. wheels ^, D, 1500 rpms, min. 25-35 PSI - - - _______________


DIRECT DRIVE CLUTCH

a. tach, wheels ^, idle, D, 0 PSI - - - - - - -_______________

b. , ^ , 1500 rpms, D, 70 PSI - -_______________

c. decelerating @ 10-12 mph, 0 PSI - - - - - - - -_______________

REAR PUMP

a. gauge, idle, brake, 0 PSI - - - - - - - - - - -_______________

b. wheels ^, D, 20 mph, min. 70 PSI - - - - - - _______________

Roscomacaw
11-04-2005, 02:56 PM
Research. - Well, I hope you're right. I hafta confess that I find it mystifying as to why there's the same exact valve body used in both second gear and first gear start trannies thru early 55(according to the parts books) if that's all it takes to convert one to the other. In mid-55, the 150 & 200 versions got an "M" suffix added and the 250 only ever came as an M series (and I don't have a clue as to what the M designates)
Be sure to let us know how it works out. Interchangability always affords more latitude. IF you've got any hope of effecting first gear start it's because you got a valve body from a DG-250M. If you'd gotten a pre-54 6 cylinder valve body (as was included in what you initially asked for) I seriously doubt you'd have achieved 1st gear start. And as I said, the '54 Champions DID have 1st gear start using the same valve body that had been used (in 2nd gear start trannies) since 1951.[:I]

Miscreant at large.

1957 Transtar 1/2ton
1960 Larkvertible V8
1958 Provincial wagon
1953 Commander coupe
1957 President 2-dr
1955 President State
1951 Champion Biz cpe
1963 Daytona project FS

jgw2
11-05-2005, 03:48 PM
Bob and everyone,

I spoke with Julian and he said there is definitely only "A/ONE" difference between the DG-200 1st-gear start and a 2nd-gear start (VALVE BODY)! The book must be wrong if it quotes the same valve body # for '51-53 6 cyl Stude (2nd gear start) vs. '54 Stude 6 cyl (1st gear start). The valve bodies definitely are physically different and each has it's uniquely-different gasket (e.g., both, 2 different valve body gaskets are supplied in the reseal kits). FURTHERMORE, the only internal difference between the DG-200 vs. the DG-250 is that the 250's sprag is slightly larger in diameter (~ 1/8"); however, he further stated that if one want's to make the 200 or the 250 take more torque, simply replace the DG sprag and 2 thrust washers (? think he said) with a 700 sprag -> this I shall investigate when my parts tranny arrives, and if the transmission shop agrees to do it I'll have them do it just to be on the safe side. I'll keep you posted, as I intend to carefully examine both valve bodies immediately upon the rear down of the 2nd tranny.

N8N
11-06-2005, 08:16 AM
just curious, if you are getting a 250M with 1st gear start why not just have that rebuilt and put the 200 on the shelf? I thought the 250M supposedly was able to handle more torque (and therefore theoretically would last longer in normal operation)

nate

--
55 Commander Starlight
62 Daytona hardtop
http://home.comcast.net/~njnagel

jgw2
11-21-2005, 03:31 PM
I mailed a check for a "DG-250M" and even wrote that on the check; thought I was getting one, but what was actually shipped was a DG-200 (mint condition, and supposedly from a Stude 6 cyl 1st gear start). So rather than wait to have it returned and get the DG 250M I decided to just rebuild the original tranny with parts from the donor tranny. When I initially had the tranny resealed, during restoration, apparently a spacer ring was left out or lost, plus one thrust washer was reversed thus causing brass bushing damage and hard parts damage. The original torque converter is being rebuilt by DACCO, in Tn, and he's putting the widest band in it that it will handle. The current tranny builder said the valve bodies looked the same (apparently he did not check the valve body numbers), but when I went there this am it was already built so I didn't get the donor valve body number; on my first fluid dump in 2-3 weeks I'll pull the donor valve body off and post BOTH valve body numbers herein, especially if it starts off in 1st gear. This is interesting, plus aggravating!! I pray it's a FIRST GEAR START (every night), especially after all of this trouble and expense.

Please pray for me. hehe
John

Roscomacaw
11-21-2005, 03:44 PM
That's interesting - seeing as how the 200 wasn't EVER fitted to a 6. Unless, of course, the parts books lie.
The only chance that MIGHT be true is if you got one that had been intended to fit behind a JAGUAR or Rolls 6.[:0]

It's funny this thread just gained new life. Funny because I queried a DG expert this morning as to what made a first gear start unit. He assured me that there was a different valve body and that the only way you can tell it's different is by the casting# on it. Otherwise they look the same. But more importantly, it requires a different extension housing and the different regulator that that housing accomodates. Also, a different Low-Intermediate Servo assembly has to be utilized as well. That's 3 things to achieve 1st gear start.

BTW, this expert said flatly that Dexron III (shile it will work in the DGs) can bring on their demise over time. Type F will do fine. Also C3 & C4 tractor fluids are good. He said a good measure would be to add 6oz of Lucas addative for auto trannies.:D

Miscreant at large.

1957 Transtar 1/2ton
1960 Larkvertible V8
1958 Provincial wagon
1953 Commander coupe
1957 President 2-dr
1955 President State
1951 Champion Biz cpe
1963 Daytona project FS

jgw2
11-21-2005, 06:05 PM
I just spoke with the donor tranny/parts man, and he says if I use the donor-200 valve body the tranny will probably shutter and slip in low, although it will take off in low and fail;

furthermore, he said I need to send him 1) donor valve body, 2) donor servo and piston assembly and donor tail shaft assembly. He will exchange them with parts from a Jaguar (DG-250, I think, although he referred to it as a DG-300) and,
then, I will have a first gear start with enhanced reliability.

However, for my application (over 200 hp) it won't last unless I drive conservatively.

Since this is basically a show car, plus I may trailer it to AZ for an auction in January, I opt to do as advised by Julian. Will update later on.:(

jgw2
11-21-2005, 06:12 PM
quote:Originally posted by jgw2

I just spoke with the donor tranny/parts man, and he says if I use the donor-200 valve body the tranny will probably shutter and slip in low, although it will take off in low and fail;

furthermore, he said I need to send him 1) donor valve body, 2) donor servo and piston assembly and donor tail shaft assembly or housing extension. He will exchange donor parts with parts from a Jaguar (DG-250, I think, although he referred to it as a "300') and,
then, I will have a first gear start with enhanced reliability.

However, for my application (over 200 hp) it won't last unless I drive conservatively.

Since this is basically a show car, plus I may trailer it to AZ for an auction in January, I opt to do as advised. Will update later on.:(

Roscomacaw
11-21-2005, 10:42 PM
I only learned today that there was a DG300 made. It, I was told, was used in some trucks too. And some of those trucks used a slightly larger lock-up clutch inside the torque convertor.[:p]

Miscreant at large.

1957 Transtar 1/2ton
1960 Larkvertible V8
1958 Provincial wagon
1953 Commander coupe
1957 President 2-dr
1955 President State
1951 Champion Biz cpe
1963 Daytona project FS

jgw2
11-22-2005, 12:24 PM
I find it amusing that you find TODAY, 11/21, of a DG-300; not saying you didn't. I have been unable to find any parts available for a DG-300. Currently I have two e-mails in; one to a gentleman that restores old Jags (30 yrs experience) and he should know, plus one that restores old tranny's. In fact one offered to sell me a DG-250 (not a DG-300) that originally was in a Jag. I paid for a DG-250 first gear start, but rec'd a DG-200 supposedly a first gear start. Further updates to follow.

John

jgw2
11-22-2005, 12:32 PM
quote:Originally posted by jgw2

I find it amusing that you find TODAY, 11/21, of a DG-300; not saying you didn't. I have been unable to find any parts available for a DG-300. Currently I have two e-mails in; one to a gentleman that restores old Jags (30 yrs experience) and he should know, plus one that restores old tranny's. In fact one offered to sell me a DG-250 (not a DG-300) that originally was in a Jag. I paid for a DG-250-M first gear start, but rec'd a DG-200 supposedly a first gear start. Further updates to follow.

John

jgw2
11-22-2005, 02:01 PM
NOTICE: the DG-250-M parts (supposedly) are on the way (valve body, servo and the housing extension w/governor). Terminologies may not be exactly correct.

Someone told me that the servo's ID are the same size (200 v. 250) & this is highly unlikely, in my mind, especially since I'm told the 250 was designed to handle the Stude V8 torque v. Stude 6-cyl.

We may wind up in court before this is over to find out the real truth.

I have the money to pursue that route if necessary, but hope it's not.

jgw2
11-22-2005, 02:55 PM
I've searched the internet on several occassions for the phantom "DG-300" and NOTHING.

On vintagejaguar.com they offer B/W rebuilt tranny's (DG-250, model 8, model 12, model 65, and model 66) NO DG-300

On vintagejaguar.com it lists ELEVEN Jaguar models with the DG-250 : NONE with a DG-300!

Anyone know how to determine the intermediate servo (L side) piston size (dia) or part number for the DG 200? _____

Anyone know how to determine the intermediate servo (L side) piston size (dia) or part number for the DG 250 _____

and/or DG-250-M or _____

Dg-250-N??? _____

THANKS

John

Roscomacaw
11-22-2005, 04:41 PM
I'm not much of one to do tedious searches. Look into DIVCO trucks for mention of a DG-300.:D

Miscreant at large.

1957 Transtar 1/2ton
1960 Larkvertible V8
1958 Provincial wagon
1953 Commander coupe
1957 President 2-dr
1955 President State
1951 Champion Biz cpe
1963 Daytona project FS

jgw2
11-23-2005, 08:09 PM
This is a quote from a man that restores Jag's:

"DG-300s were not used on Jaguars. Some Studebakers had them. Jaguars onlyused the DG-250 in two different configurations: with a first-speed startand a second-speed start. (Second-speed start was discontinued about 1958 or 59.)"

jgw2
11-26-2005, 02:05 PM
I need immediate help from owner's of 55 Studebaker V8 w/automatic (3-band, Borg Warner DG-250-M) trannies.

1. On the driver's side just rearward of the bellhousing there is an assy called ~ LOW/REV INTERMEDIATE SERVO ASSY and it has a part number that is vertically-oriented reading it UP, and should read something like "25- _ _ _", I believe. Please post what yours is.

{e.g., for a DG-200, it reads on mine, "20-517"}

2. Also, on the rear of the tranny there is a TAILSHAFT assy w/gov, and the part number reads horizontally.

On a DG-200, e.g., it reads "20-705"

Please post what yours is and verify that yours has a "25- _ _ _", or whatever yours reads.

THANKS-a-million

John

jgw2
11-26-2005, 02:07 PM
I need immediate help from owner's of 55 Studebaker V8 w/automatic (3-band, Borg Warner DG-250-M) trannies.

1. On the driver's side just rearward of the bellhousing there is an assy called ~ LOW/REV INTERMEDIATE SERVO ASSY and it has a part number that is vertically-oriented reading it UP, and should read something like "25- _ _ _", I believe. Please post what yours is.

{e.g., for a DG-200, it reads on mine, "20-517"}

2. Also, on the rear of the tranny there is a TAILSHAFT assy w/gov, and the part number reads horizontally.

On a DG-200, e.g., it reads "20-705"

Please post what yours is and verify that yours has a "25- _ _ _", or whatever yours reads.

THANKS-a-million

John