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Stude4x4
10-18-2005, 12:05 AM
Would it be possible to weld up the journals on ground crankshafts and then regrind them to standard size? Don't know if it has or can be done. Any sugestions?
-Jake

-Home of John Studebaker-

DEEPNHOCK
10-18-2005, 07:26 AM
Yes, it is possible, and yes, it does work, and yes, it is expensive.
259 cranks are still cheap enough that the cost is a bit prohibitive.
As the supply of 289 crankshafts dwindles, you will see this process used more and more.
(as a side note, there is a reground ground (.010")289 crank on Ebay right now)
Jeff (I remember buying a NOS 289 crank for $40 once) Rice[8D]


quote:Originally posted by Stude4x4

Would it be possible to weld up the journals on ground crankshafts and then regrind them to standard size? Don't know if it has or can be done. Any sugestions?
-Jake

-Home of John Studebaker-


DEEPNHOCK at Cox.net
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Mike Van Veghten
10-18-2005, 01:28 PM
Another method of buildup, if you're only going .020" or .030" larger is "hard chrome", (or chrome only, without the nickle or copper). It's been used for many, many a year.
The process is to simillar to welding in that a buildup of chrome is deposited on the surface, larger than required. The crank is then reground back to size. It's also a very hard surface.

Many don't realize that the treated hard surface of a crank is usually ground away if going over about .015" undersize. Then the surface is "relitivly" soft, compared to what it was.

prager
10-18-2005, 02:06 PM
Sasco has n.o.s. cranks for probably the same cost of having one redone..

Roscomacaw
10-18-2005, 04:49 PM
I don't think SASCO has any 289 cranks tho. If they do, it's been a well-kept secret for many years.[:0][}:)]:D
259 cranks? Yes. I even got a 224 crank from them not too long ago. But NOS 289 cranks would be a real prize to find. Any used/abused 289 cranks should be saved for future redemption![^]

Miscreant at large.

1957 Transtar 1/2ton
1960 Larkvertible V8
1958 Provincial wagon
1953 Commander coupe
1957 President 2-dr
1955 President State
1951 Champion Biz cpe
1963 Daytona project FS

prager
10-18-2005, 08:22 PM
OOps!! they are 259 cranks..sorry!![V]

oldvinyl
10-23-2005, 03:47 AM
Spray welding can be a disaster. The best method that Ive seen is furnace welding. Hank the crank has done thousands of Hemi cranks that seemed to hold together well. The procces is not cheap. The 3.25 stroke 259 crank is a great crank and the best choice if all else fails. A 289 crank turned .030 is OK, all these cranks exceed that of all of the early 283 -327 GM cranks. you arent going to loose any sleep over strenght issues, get it turned and tuftrided, balance your new engine and go for it!!!! Stroker cranks can be had by the purchace of GM raw forgings 3.75 stroke is no problem. SB chevy and Stude share same spacings . Studebaker cranks have also turned inside SB chevies, Documented in early Hot Rod. this was the cheapest way to stroke a chevy in the early 60s. Dont loose any sleep over crankshafts. Tom.

11SecAvanti
10-23-2005, 10:03 AM
Did I read this correctly? That a GM crank can be installed in a stude block! Never heard of this swap. Can you clarify?

Start and Stage Your Studebakers

oldvinyl
10-23-2005, 11:59 AM
Avanti 11 sec, Yes , The article that I have seen was an early hot Rod, the small Issues around 1958-thru-60. Stude stroker into Chevy., The raw forged unfinised Gm SB crank has enough material to get the job done. Tom

Dwain G.
10-23-2005, 01:25 PM
Hey Biggs! Do you still have those hipboots I loaned you?

Dwain G.

Roscomacaw
10-23-2005, 01:27 PM
Yeah - I'm wearin' 'em right now.:D

I guess I'm a bit confused tho. Seems to me that a Fo*d 289 crank would be a shoe-in.

Miscreant at large.

1957 Transtar 1/2ton
1960 Larkvertible V8
1958 Provincial wagon
1953 Commander coupe
1957 President 2-dr
1955 President State
1951 Champion Biz cpe
1963 Daytona project FS

oldvinyl
10-23-2005, 02:09 PM
Hey guys, Ill locate the article. you may have to eat your gumboots, and that really is not a great way to start the day. har har, Tom

curt
10-23-2005, 02:24 PM
I understand the crank production is to grind the crank and then heat treat the steel. The process is a facinating to me. Grind the crank, then a gig is set up so a flame is focused on each and every journal at the same time; then the heat/flame revolves around the journals untill they are HOT and at the proper temperature. Then the entire crank is dunked in a cold bath. Heat the treated journal surface is ready to be polished.

oldvinyl
10-23-2005, 02:49 PM
Nodular Iron, and steel use are handled differently. nodular iron is easier to deal with than hard steel. Steel takes alot more effort to get right due to molecular density. purchace a new crank thats done right is your best insurance. Any of the NOS 259 cranks are really great items, the sacrifice in cubic inches is not going to make you cry if you have a 3.655 bore. you get 273 inches and when the rest all comes together by good careful prep youll never know it wasnt a 289-304. Tom.

Alan
10-23-2005, 04:13 PM
You have given me something to do this weekend. I'm going out to my garage and going to put a Stude crank in a Chev. and a Chev crank in a Stude motor and let you know how they fit. And on the hardening of the cranks they put them in an oven, take them to a certain temp. then pump the oven with gas to cool them. The surface hardening is only 2 of 3 thousands thick.

oldvinyl
10-23-2005, 06:01 PM
Hi Allan, You will be in shock to see how close things are, The chevy rear main oil slinger may be too large in diameter to fit into place., the front main has to be machined on the chevy crank to duplicate the stude., Also if need be the snout may have to be enlarged slightly. also keyway installed. It wont be a drop in without a trip to the crank grinder. As Ive said the Raw forging SB crank should have enough material to do a nice job. At one point I was searching out a billet crank for my engine w/ 3.75 stroke. It would have cost me over $3000. canadian, then A buddy pointed out that the Early chevy stroker cranks were in fact Studebaker 289!! Then handed me the article that I certainly will locate. Regards Tom.

Alan
10-23-2005, 06:10 PM
Stude crank is 25.75" long the Chev. is 25.250". The bore spacing on the Stude is 4.510", Chevy is 4.40". From center of front main to center of second main on Stude is 5.100". the 2-3-4 are 4.5", 4th to rear main are 5.750". Chevy is 5.00" 1-2, 2-3-4 is 4.40" and 4- rear main is 5.550" Close but no cigar I couldn't get either crank to fit in either block with out some fancy machineing Stude would be easier to put in Chevy but why? Also the thrust bearing is on the front on Stude and rear on Chev.

Alan
10-23-2005, 06:16 PM
Oh and Tom, try to track down Corben Walters. When I was in Spokane in Aug. I tried snooping around Seattle for him got in touch with one of his friends but he said Corbin didn't want to be found.

oldvinyl
10-23-2005, 07:00 PM
Hi Allan, Your figures are correct, thus raw forging as a base for the new stroker crank, you can easily get the stude profile out of the chevy forging, the reason that the stude cranks were installed into the chevrolets were to gain large inches, and in 1962 a few 350+ inch chevys were derived this way, will locate the Hot Rod Issue. As for Corbin Walters, I have heard similar stories, Nevertheless, cant blame him if he wants the privacy. He has carried out one of the greatest feats in racing history bar none. It would certainly be a great day to see him back at the salt flats. Iam very positive that he could easily blast straight over the top of 200 mph again and even better than last time. At any rate If we all scream hard enough maybe we can get him back in the saddle. After all He is the real Studebaker engine man. Tom.

64Avanti
10-26-2005, 03:22 AM
The bore spacing per the Studebaker drawings is 4.500 not 4.510. I recall reading that Hank the Crank used Studebaker cranks with extensive modifications to stroke SBC engines back in the early 60's and perhaps earlier.

I never met Corbin Walters and he obviously new something about Studebaker engines but let's not forget that another Avanti with an engine that wasn't built by Corbin went over 200 mph and holds the record that Ron Hall's car used to hold.

The point is that there are some others that know something about Studebaker engines. I hope to get my 260 cu inch Avanti over 200 mph. It might take a couple of years but it should be possible. I didn't finish is for this years race and perhaps that is good since it only lasted 3.5 days before the course was flooded with 2 to 6 inches of water.

By the way if there are enough people interested in having stroker cranks for Studebaker engines new billet cranks can be done for about $2000. Not cheap, but It cost me about $600 to buy a new 259 crank and have it destroked .010, clearance the mains and have it nitrided. This didn't include balancing.


David L

oldvinyl
10-26-2005, 10:23 AM
Hi David, Hope your project is a great success!!! The story that you heard is correct, Iam still looking for the article, It was in the late 50s early 60s. The raw forged chevy bowtie crank will work. You can get it semi finished with crank center aligned, and throws semi finished or left alone. A stroker crank could be easily obtained of up to 4 inches or more. With carrillo rods you could easily get a 4 inch crank. weld sleeve a 55 block, 4 inches and there you go. Tom.

oldvinyl
10-26-2005, 10:30 AM
Forgot to mention, re-route lifter bore lubrication feed as the sleeves cut through the existing passages. plug off and force oil through lines inside galley. a bit of work. 259 NOS cranks are still around at a song . Tom

Roscomacaw
10-26-2005, 12:37 PM
I love hearing about Studes pushing the envelope. My dream assault (As-salt?[}:)]) would be to see the ChickenHawk with - different rear gears - on the salt flats. Air dam and a spoiler maybe? What say, Ted[?][?][?][:0][}:)]:D Or how about showing what the brown wrapper can really do? :D:D:D

Miscreant at large.

1957 Transtar 1/2ton
1960 Larkvertible V8
1958 Provincial wagon
1953 Commander coupe
1957 President 2-dr
1955 President State
1951 Champion Biz cpe
1963 Daytona project FS

Alan
10-26-2005, 03:07 PM
Sorry Dave, I took my readings on 1 pair of cylinders only with a set of 12" dial calipers checking the thickness of the block between cylinders and then adding the bore.

Stude4x4
10-26-2005, 07:43 PM
Yeah Biggs, I love to hear stories of Studies kickin butt. One of these days I'm gonna start a new topic just on old stories of Studes showin their stuff. I got many stories of my own.

-Home of John Studebaker-

64Avanti
10-27-2005, 01:03 AM
Neither the ChickenHawk nor the Plain Brown Wrapper would do very well at Bonneville. Their aerodynamics are not very good. Let's compare the Lark to the Avanti. At Bonneville the R2 powered Lark went about 132 mph (I don't remember the exact numbers at the moment but this is close enough for looking at the aerodynamic problem.) and the R2 powered Avanti went about 160 mph. We know that it takes about 640 hp to do 200 mph in an Avanti. Since the power is proportional to the cube of the speed we can calculate that it take about 328 hp to do 160 mph in an Avanti. We can assume that the R2 Lark had the same power level. What we don't know is did the Lark have the correct rear axle ratio to get the engine into the maximum power range. We will assume that it did. So we can say the Lark took about 328 horsepower to go 132 mph. For it to go 160 would take about 573 horsepower and 1120 to do 200 mph.

I suspect that the gear ratio was not optimal on the Lark and the correct difference in aerodynamics would give a power requirement of only 800 hp to do 200 mph. Anyway you can see the magnitude of the problem that is created by different aerodynamics.

At Bonneville you need an engine that will run for 5 miles at maximum engine speed. The biggest problem is the engine oiling. The Studebaker engine will pump all of the oil into the heads if you don't do something to reduce the amount of oil going to the heads and improve the drainback. Basically you need to extensively modify the oil system and go to a dry sump system. The other thing about a Bonneville engine is that you are most interested in maximum power. An engine for drag racing needs good power over a broader RPM range.

David L

oldvinyl
10-27-2005, 10:18 AM
David L, Getting back to the topic of crankshafts, Seems that you have some great Indepth knowledge and direction. The billet Crank that you talked about, can you elaborate more on this? Iam glad some people see the merrit also of the 3.25 stroke crank. Horsepower band would be good at the upper end. A bit less reciprocating strain. My engine is similar to yours., Its 273 inches (R-3 bore). the oiling system has a few changes, cylinder heads do not drain directly back through factory passages. I have plugged the return passages and exit oil externally through 4 --- 1/2 inch i.d. lines to pan, below oil level. as is the lifter valley oil return. I have noted that oil returning from heads comes out in an undesirable area, too close to windage path. any reduction of oil here may greatly help. It would be nice to run a pass on the dyno with internal camera to see windage/ oil situation. must go. Tom

Roscomacaw
10-27-2005, 01:20 PM
David,

My "daydreaming" wasn't from a standpoint of any records they might set. It's only that it would be fun to see just what their limits might well be.
Those associated with the PBW have expressed their own disbelief that something so contrary to the wisdom of the wind tunnel can prevail like it does.

Having been a big fan of aviation history and having designed and built many model aircraft thru the years, I look at the bullet-nosed cars and see a slippery look that was the intent of Loewy's talent pool when they concieved it. They wanted it to look like an airplane and it certainly does look so over the earlier variants of the body tub they were confined to.
Yes, I'm aware of the differences between a car built for the quarter mile and one devised for the salt flats. But Ron Hall's Avanti (and subsequent salt assualting Stude-powered Studes) as well as the PBW didn't get to where they've been without trial and error.
I don't and WON'T pretend to know anything about the nether-realm of extreme engine modification. But that won't stop me from dreaming of what MIGHT be![}:)][:p];)

I remember, years ago, reading an article by a fella who was well acquainted with the old car mania. He elaborated that the idealistic vision he had of cruising along in a 50-something Hudson convertible - top down, straight eight murmuring out in front, sun-dappled two-lane snaking along under a cozy canopy of large trees - was a heck of alot easier to daydream than it was to experience in reality.
In that vein - my mind's image of a twin-turbo'd Stude V8 ensconced in a dark blue bullet-nosed Starlight coupe and leaving twin rooster-tails of slung salt while it screams it's defiance of the laws of physics - will always make me sigh when I take time to play said image in my head.[^] Actualy making it happen would be a helluva alot harder than I care to work.
As one of my favorite artists has sung, you're innocent when you dream. No harm, no foul, but it sure is fun:D

Miscreant at large.

1957 Transtar 1/2ton
1960 Larkvertible V8
1958 Provincial wagon
1953 Commander coupe
1957 President 2-dr
1955 President State
1951 Champion Biz cpe
1963 Daytona project FS

64Avanti
10-27-2005, 03:33 PM
Well maybe some others can be enticed to go out to Bonneville with some Studebaker powered cars. However it is expensive to race a car and it would be nice to have a chance at making a record if you do go. Perhaps Ted or someone would be interested in building a 53 or 54. Or perhaps the Salt 2 Salt guys would be interested in using a turbocharged V8 in their car. They have a very well built car and it is ready for an engine that would push them over 200 mph.

If you can do all of the work yourself (build engine, roll cage etc.) then expect to spend between $20K and $35K not including the cost of the car. You can try to get some sponsorship but it is next to impossible for Bonneville, there isn't enough publicity. I didn't even have any luck getting help from the largest vendors of Studebaker parts. There are a few of you guys that helped a little with some parts and I appriciate it. (SASCO offered a 25% discount on a list of items I sent them if I bought everything on the list. Some of their prices where higher than what you would pay elsewhere even with a 25% discount.) You can also expect to spend about 600 hours in labor and perhaps another 300 to 600 hours deciding what you're going to do on various systems and researching various components. (It helps if you can find someone to help but I wasn't able to find anyone in northern California who was too interested.) This doesn't include the cost of going to Bonneville and once you've gone there you will need to spend more money to do something different for the next time or fix whatever you broke.

Next year we should have 3 Avanti's at Bonneville in three different classes. Two of them have gone over 200 mph and mine hasn't yet moved under it's own power. (I ran out of time and money this year and wasn't able to finish the car but it should be running early next year.)



David L

spookys
10-27-2005, 04:19 PM
yep this really did happen, they were used in Stock Cars. It is in the Hot Rod magazine some issue back in the day.

Jon

Stude4x4
10-27-2005, 04:27 PM
Dave, Where at in No. California are you? I'm in Placerville. I have always wanted to build a stude powered race car, but I'm only 18 and still have many years left.
-Jake

-Home of John Studebaker-

64Avanti
10-27-2005, 08:05 PM
I am in San Jose.

David L

oldvinyl
10-28-2005, 01:05 AM
Guys, I love the idea of the 51 bullet nose on the salt, Its one of the best top ten ideas of the week., or How about just fooling everyone and Stude power a newer Camaro or Vette, on the Salt!!!!. Iam sure the Stude engine can push one of these cars well over 200 Tom.