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danweb
10-04-2005, 07:02 PM
How hard is it to replace a generator with an alternator in a 62 Hawk? I have had them rebulid my generator twice and it is not putting out any current. I`ve also replaced the regulator twice also.
Some body please help me. The wife wants me to sell my car and get
a newer one. That ain`t gonna happen. There is just too many people out there with a vast amount of knowledge. So please help me. I`m in so. cal. not far from Magic Mountain. If anyone knows someone my way who is experienced with generators let me know. Thanks Dan

62 GT Hawk

curt
10-04-2005, 08:14 PM
Dan, I'm only a shade tree mechanic. I had a problem , grounds: battery to seloniod,seloniod to starter. block to battery, and I think block to frame. I polished those suckers with fine steel wool from wall mart or the hardware store. Once I had excellent connection my car ran ,charged and had super lights. Also have you polorized the generator/regulator?

DilloCrafter
10-04-2005, 10:17 PM
Danweb, this is probably a shadetree opinion, too, so take it with a grain of salt. I know someone with a 55 Commander, who said their car was not firing too well, until they changed the generator pulley to a smaller diameter. That change caused the generator to turn more revolutions with each engine revolution, putting out more voltage for the plugs. Something to consider, anyway.

1955 1/2 Ton Pickup

Roscomacaw
10-05-2005, 11:35 AM
It's a pretty easy swap by my standards. But let's approach this logically. Have you had the "shop" test the generator after it's been shown not to charge on your Hawk? OR, is this the sort of "rebuild" where you take it to a parts store and they send it off to be rebuilt? (Thereby denying you the ability to deal directly with the rebuilders)

IF you're dealing directly with the rebuilding shop, have them test the generator for you. It only takes a minute to do so. If it works on their test rig, it should work in your car. And if they're an old-timey shop, they likely have a tester for the regulator too. You might ask!

OK, ALL that aside, the current output from that generator all goes thru the ammeter on the dash.;) THAT'S suspect #1 as far as inhibiting recharge. And these ammeters have a habit of developing corroded connections over the years. They'll get to the point to where they won't pass any current at all or give any indication of such. First thing I'd do is get a flashlight and look to see if the connections on that gage look nice or nasty.:( Check that out and get back to us. Then we'll check out the wiring associated with the generator - wire by wire.[^]

Miscreant at large.

1957 Transtar 1/2ton
1960 Larkvertible V8
1958 Provincial wagon
1953 Commander coupe
1957 President 2-dr
1955 President State
1951 Champion Biz cpe
1963 Daytona project FS

danweb
10-20-2005, 12:47 AM
Thanks Mr. Biggs, I`ll try that this weekend and get back to you.:)

danweb
01-06-2006, 06:55 PM
Its been a while since I last posted. Had two surgeries on my shoulder and know I up and running. Now about my hawk. I have a slight problem, I`m 6'5" and weight 270. I cannot fit to see up into or behind the dash to check the gauge. Should I remove the drivers seat? I don`t know if this will give me the room I need. If anyone knows of someone in socal that is good with these oldie but goodies I wouldn`t mind paying for there time.:) Please HELP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:(

Alan
01-06-2006, 07:02 PM
So. Cal is a big place mail me through this forum if you are in the L.A. Orange County area.

jackb
01-07-2006, 03:06 PM
danweb: Can we assume by your seat removal comments that your gen & reg have been tested and given clean bills of health ?? If not ...do so.

danweb
01-07-2006, 08:14 PM
Yes the gen. and volt reg. are brand new. I polarized the regulator and all I get is it showing a slight discharge when the car is running. With the lights on it shows a bigger discharge. I`m going over to Alan`s house tomorrow and hopefully he can help me get this thing sorted.[:p] Dan


62 GT Hawk

jackb
01-08-2006, 09:56 AM
Assuming all other accessories are working fine...are they ? It's very possible you connections on the ammeter are on backwards ...? I know my connections were backwards on my 64' gas guage and alwasy gave me bad readings....let's hope you get some good luck with your friend today....

danweb
01-09-2006, 10:55 AM
Checked out charging system yesterday and for some reason the regulator is not exciting the generator so there is no charging going on.:( Checked contunity of wires going to regulator and it was good. Connections on ampmeter are good. At this point of game, I`m thinking about installing an alternator.[:p] My Hawk is not a show car so I`m not worried about the purists out there that say its not an original.[}:)] I drive my Studebaker just about everyday of the week like they where meant to be.[8D] Any suggestions would be appreciated.:D Dan

62 GT Hawk

Dick Steinkamp
01-09-2006, 11:14 AM
quote:Originally posted by danweb

Checked out charging system yesterday and for some reason the regulator is not exciting the generator so there is no charging going on.:( Checked contunity of wires going to regulator and it was good. Connections on ampmeter are good. At this point of game, I`m thinking about installing an alternator.[:p] My Hawk is not a show car so I`m not worried about the purists out there that say its not an original.[}:)] I drive my Studebaker just about everyday of the week like they where meant to be.[8D] Any suggestions would be appreciated.:D Dan

62 GT Hawk


I'm not sure what you mean by "the regulator is not exciting the generator". An alternator needs an external source of current to begin charging, but not a generator.

Here's a good web site to understand the basics of a generator system...
http://www.imperialclub.org/Repair/Electrical/generator.htm

Here's some info from that site...

"A generator is simply a spinning armature inside a magnetic field. It has no smarts at all. It will produce current when it is spinning, and if the current has a place to go, it will go there. The voltage regulator directs the current, prevents current from flowing backwards into the generator at low RPM, and adjusts the amount of current by adjusting the strength of the magnetic field. There is always some residual magnetism in the generator steel case, so a generator will begin to produce current even with no applied field current."

IMHO, it will be easier to trouble shoot your existing system (and probably cheaper) than to purchase an alternator and regulator (matched to the alternator), figure out the wiring for it, fab a bracket, and find the right belt and pully.

-Dick-

Commander51
01-09-2006, 12:23 PM
Dick's probably right about cheaper, but an alternator is much more likely to give you worry-free charging IMHO, and these guys http://www.fifthaveinternetgarage.com/ can furnish you with all the parts, instructions and advice you will need to make the conversion.

You'll feel much better about making any further investments in charging if you first assure yourself that your wiring is 100% A-OK. The first car I restored, I tried to get by without a complete rewire-- that was (and will be) the last time. Now it's the first thing I do with EVERY new-to-me car. Unless you do the wiring yourself, or get someone you trust implicitly to do it, IMHO you'll never get completely comfortable with the electricals.

So at a minimum, polish up all those grounding points, or add ground wires to pesky accessories. Good luck!

51 Commander State Sedan

Kittanning, PA

Alan
01-09-2006, 02:01 PM
Dick, Thanks for that web site lots of good stuff and even though I have been working on Studes since 1958 there are a few things I can still learn. When we checked the generator over it would not show voltage at the field terminal on the generator so we shut it off and pulled the battery cable and made a resistance test of the field. Insted of a low resistance it was open, so we took the generator apart and found a broken field wire between the 2 shoes. Took that apart and repaired the broken wire, reassembled it put it back on still no voltage to the field on the gen. Brand new regulator but according to the Stude book there were 2 different generators used on 62's and 3 different ways of regulating them. The guy at the generator shop couldn't give Dan the part no. replacement called for in the book but said it was a direct replacement. Also when disassembling the gen. there was no key on the shaft to hold the pully in place. Still no voltage to the field no matter which way you polerize the gen. If you can't get volage to the field it dosn't produce anything.

Dick Steinkamp
01-09-2006, 03:49 PM
quote:Originally posted by Alan

Dick, Thanks for that web site lots of good stuff and even though I have been working on Studes since 1958 there are a few things I can still learn. When we checked the generator over it would not show voltage at the field terminal on the generator so we shut it off and pulled the battery cable and made a resistance test of the field. Insted of a low resistance it was open, so we took the generator apart and found a broken field wire between the 2 shoes. Took that apart and repaired the broken wire, reassembled it put it back on still no voltage to the field on the gen. Brand new regulator but according to the Stude book there were 2 different generators used on 62's and 3 different ways of regulating them. The guy at the generator shop couldn't give Dan the part no. replacement called for in the book but said it was a direct replacement. Also when disassembling the gen. there was no key on the shaft to hold the pully in place. Still no voltage to the field no matter which way you polerize the gen. If you can't get volage to the field it dosn't produce anything.


I'd probably take the generator back to the guy who rebuilt it (twice?). A broken internal wire and missing pulley key doesn't sound like a very good job and would make me suspect that the generator was probably not good. Make him make good on his work then make him demonstrate to you on his test stand that the generator is putting out. Reinstall the (known working) generator, recheck the wiring diagram all the way through, repolorize the generator, and it should charge. If not, follow the standard charging trouble shooting steps outlined on the link I provided, or in a Motor's Manual.

A generator system should be as worry free as an alternator system. They both have the same number of components (the alternator even has that additional rectifier circuit). They both have a regulator (some alternators have an internal regulator). Both a generator and an alternator have about the same running life. The only advantage of an alternator (IMHO) is that it will charge at a lower RPM than the generator (generators produce over about 800 RPM's and alternators will charge at idle) and most alternators have the ability to produce more amps. A stock Studebaker probably can't use all the amps even the smallest alternator can produce, however.

-Dick-

jackb
01-10-2006, 07:44 AM
Dan: How many "true" miles do you put on this car in a year ? I suggest you get a full refund on the electrical work done so far. Don't be surprised if the rebuilder claims that YOU broke the internals of the generator and lost the Woodruff key !!! I know it may sound surprising, but look what they've put you through already.....If I drove this car less than 3K miles/year, I'd simply call Dave Thibeault or another known Stude vendor, and have them ship to you a rebuilt, matched generator/regulator pair. Simple. You'll get what you want from an ethical Stude vendor...problem solved, your butt is in the seat, and away you go......

danweb
01-11-2006, 12:22 AM
Jackb, It is my dailey driver so I would estimate between 6 to 8 thousand miles a year. I think I`m going to go with the altenator, but I`ll see about trying to get a refund on the shoddy electrical work the guy did on the generator. I doubt I`ll get anywhere but who knows. I`ll keep all of you informed. Dan

P.S. Alan, expect a call from me in the near future. And once again thankyou for all your help.:)


62GT Hawk

Alan
01-11-2006, 03:02 PM
OK Dan no problem.
Dick on that Imperial web site I printed out and read all 23 pages, did you read everything. In there they give 5 different ways to polerize the generator and none of them are the same as the Stude book shows. Also I looked at a 6 Volt generator and regulator I have from a 53 K and the Standard parts regulator has a sticker that says to jump a wire from the arm. to field on the reg. to polerize it. NOW I AM REALY CONFUSED. There seem to be more ways to polerize a gen. than to skin a cat.

Dick Steinkamp
01-11-2006, 03:13 PM
quote:Originally posted by Alan

OK Dan no problem.
Dick on that Imperial web site I printed out and read all 23 pages, did you read everything. In there they give 5 different ways to polerize the generator and none of them are the same as the Stude book shows. Also I looked at a 6 Volt generator and regulator I have from a 53 K and the Standard parts regulator has a sticker that says to jump a wire from the arm. to field on the reg. to polerize it. NOW I AM REALY CONFUSED. There seem to be more ways to polerize a gen. than to skin a cat.


...and I'll bet each one of those guys swears that their system is the ONLY one that will work :D.

I'll bow to the experts on this one. Maybe Mr. Biggs, Gord or Dwain will jump in here and tell us the right way. Each of those guys has more Studebaker knowledge in their little finger than I've got in my whole fat head. :)

-Dick-

imported_n/a
01-12-2006, 02:44 AM
These guys have had some excellent answers so far, and I'm not Not trying to make light of your situation, or anything, but could you try getting a new wife, instead? One that knows something about how to get your charging system working, instead of nagging you to get a nice new car? Just a suggestion.:)

gordr
01-12-2006, 04:10 AM
quote:Originally posted by Alan

OK Dan no problem.
Dick on that Imperial web site I printed out and read all 23 pages, did you read everything. In there they give 5 different ways to polerize the generator and none of them are the same as the Stude book shows. Also I looked at a 6 Volt generator and regulator I have from a 53 K and the Standard parts regulator has a sticker that says to jump a wire from the arm. to field on the reg. to polerize it. NOW I AM REALY CONFUSED. There seem to be more ways to polerize a gen. than to skin a cat.


That's because there are several different generator and regulator circuits out there. To polarize a generator, you actually polarize its field pole pieces (also called "flashing the field", NOT the same thing as streaking the Raiders game:D). Really, this just involves giving the field coils a brief jolt of juice in the same polarity as they would get it when the regulator says "charge". Some generator circuits have the "hot" end of the field internally connected to the armature brush, and the field terminal is grounded by the regulator to make current flow in the field coils. Other circuits have one end of the field coils grounded, and the field stud is connected to the battery when the regulator tells it to make juice. Polarizing just ensures that the residual magnetism in the field coils is in the right direction so that the generator puts out voltage of the right polarity to operate the cutout relay in the regulator, which then powers up the field for real so it can generate its rated output. (Alternators don't need a cutout relay, nor do they need polarizing, as the diodes prevent it from draining the battery when at rest.)

So you have to determine WHICH generator you have, and which regulator you have. Are they a matched set? A Delco regulator probably won't work with a Prestolite generator, unless it is built as a replacement for the appropriate Prestolite regulator. Once you are confident you have the right parts installed, polarize according to the procedure applicable to the generator model in question.

I'm with Dick on this. Take both the generator and regulator back to your electric shop, and have them tested together. If the shop can't do that, find one that can. This used to be bread-and-butter work for auto-electric shops, and surely there are still a few in your area that could do a generator repair properly.

BTW, you can bench-test a generator by "motoring" it. Use test clips to connect it to a 12 volt battery. Connect to either "arm" and "field" or to "field" and ground, depending on the internal connections of the generator. A wrong connection won't cause any harm, unless you leave it hooked up for a long time. A good generator, hooked up correctly, will self-start, and should spin up to a pretty good speed. Don't let it rev for a long time, as it's remotely possible to over-rev the generator and damage it. A few seconds is enough to see if it motors. A bad one will either not "motor" at all, or might run if hand-started. Worst possible outcome of a motoring test is that you might reverse-polarize the field, which is readily fixed by re-polarizing it. If a generator will motor readily, it WILL generate, if the regulator and the wiring of the car will let it.

If the generator and regulator work properly as a team when tested in the shop, but not in the car, then the car has a wiring fault.

Gord Richmond, within Weasel range of the Alberta Badlands

jackb
01-12-2006, 05:43 PM
I strongly advise "against" the GM 1-wire alternator swap. Why ? Because it's real noisy......

60Lark
01-12-2006, 11:01 PM
My GM one wire alternator is not noisy in the least bit.

Studebaker Fever
60 Lark
51 Champion
Phil

danweb
02-02-2006, 05:23 PM
WAHOO!!!!!!!!!!!!! With the help of Alan who is a regal member here, I got my 62 Hawk back on the road. I should say with Alan`s work (He) got it back on the road.:D Got tired of messing with the generator rebuild and now have a nice new alternator in it and she runs like a top.[8D] Thanks to everyone for all the advice and now I can concentrate on getting her ready to take her to South Bend in 2007.
Is anybody going to caravan there.[:p] Let me know.

Dan

62 GT Hawk

Roscomacaw
02-03-2006, 08:52 AM
Hey! That's GREAT news! With a bit of luck, I'll be driving to South Bend in '07. The two of us can be the cornerstone of a Caravan.;)

Miscreant at large.

1957 Transtar 1/2ton
1960 Larkvertible V8
1958 Provincial wagon
1953 Commander coupe
1957 President 2-dr
1955 President State
1951 Champion Biz cpe
1963 Daytona project FS

danweb
02-03-2006, 09:14 AM
Sounds good Mr. Biggs. I live in Santa Clarita and I think your north of me. Shouldn`t be a problem hooking up to go to South Bend.

SOUTH BEND IN 07 OR BUST!!!!!!!!!!

Dan




62 GT Hawk

swan hawk
02-15-2006, 08:39 PM
Also have a '62 GT Hawk with generator - new battery - new cables - new voltage regulator - no electricty to the regulator (battery to ground) - no response at the ignition switch - now what?

gordr
02-15-2006, 11:24 PM
quote:Originally posted by swan hawk

Also have a '62 GT Hawk with generator - new battery - new cables - new voltage regulator - no electricty to the regulator (battery to ground) - no response at the ignition switch - now what?


The "BAT" terminal of the regulator should be at +12 volts relative to ground at all times. If there is no voltage there, then I'd suspect a broken wire somewhere, or a loose connection on the back of the ammeter, or a burned-out ammeter, though that rarely happens.

What do you mean by "no response at the ignition switch"?

Gord Richmond, within Weasel range of the Alberta Badlands

swan hawk
02-17-2006, 05:02 PM
Nothing happens if teh key is turned. [V]

hank63
02-19-2006, 10:34 AM
Just a short comment - an alternator (due to it's rotor design) is capable of higher revs than a generator. Most alternators have a smaller pulley which means they spin faster than a generator at a given engine rpm. Hence the perceived "charges better" outcome.
Over-revving a generator is a common way to failure.
/H

gordr
02-20-2006, 01:28 AM
quote:Originally posted by swan hawk

Nothing happens if teh key is turned. [V]


Think of all the gas you are saving;)

Well, time to get a test light, and start tracing the wires from the ignition switch back to the source. You might want to take out the driver's seat, and put an old sleeping bag or something similar on the floor of the car. Makes getting one's head under the dash almost comfortable.

Connect the clip lead of the test light to a known good ground, and see if you have juice at the "bat" terminal on the ignition switch. The switch terminal do have labels embossed in the black Bakelite; you may need a strong light and a mirror, but they are there. If you have juice at the "bat" terminal, check for juice at "ign" and "acc". The former should be live with the key turned one notch to the right, and the latter should be live with the key turned one notch either way from off. The "start" terminal should be live only when the key is turned all the way to the right in the cranking position.

No juice at the "bat" terminal? Then find the terminals on the back of the ammeter. They should both have juice. If only one does, either the ammeter is open, or one or both of the wire terminals are not making good contact with the ammeter stud. Disconnect the battery, then remove these wires (one at a time), clean the ring terminals and studs, and reassemble. If neither terminal on the ammeter has juice, then the wire harness bears looking at.

BTW, when using a test light, I like to have a known good "hot" wire available that I can touch periodically to ensure that the test light itself remains well-grounded, and that the bulb is still good. Saves tearing into something because of a "false negative" from the test light.

Get these steps done, and check back with your findings[8D]

Gord Richmond, within Weasel range of the Alberta Badlands