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MagikDraggin
03-10-2007, 10:22 PM
How can I tell if the Hawk I now have has the updated hardened valve seats for use with unleaded fuel?

And what are the consequences of running unleaded fuel on non-hardened valves seats?

Also, while I'm thinking of it, what would be the most likely cause of an excessive carbon buildup in the exhaust? I mean by excessive, when I start the Hawk up, there is literally a pile of soot and solid particulates which initially shoots out the tailpipe. Once it has started and the idle settles down, nothing more comes out....no black smoke, no nothing, but minor condensation.

I've checked the WCFB carb function/settings and choke operation and everything seems normal. There is no "fuel smell" as would be the case, I would think, if the carb were running rich.

I've already had the R/H muffler completely plug up on me, and I dissected the old muffler and found it chocked full of soot and scaly particles from, I would guess, the insides of the pipes themselves....reminded me of the old coal-furnace we had when I was a kid.

What a mess.


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v147/MagikDraggin/Other%20Stuff/62StudebakerGTHawk1-small.jpg
1962 GT Hawk 4sp

John Kirchhoff
03-10-2007, 11:13 PM
If you have the head removed, you can usually see the hardened seat pressed into the head around the valve. Without the head off, there's really no way to tell. As far as the consequences of running unleaded fuel, I can't really tell you other than what experience I've had. My combine has a 318 Chrysler engine that had cast iron heads without hardened seats. When I overhauled the thing, one exhaust valve on each head was recessed severly but the rest looked just fine. When I overhauled the slant six Chrysler on the other combine, all of the seats were just and both engines had been run under pretty much identical conditions, approximately 2200 rpm constant running for long hours at probably 80% of their horsepower potential at that rpm. For me, all that did was confuse me even more. Supposedly light loads wouldn't cause problems and heavy loads would, but that didn't really explain each V8 head having only one seat recessed.

As far as carbon goes, older diesel tractors are very good at depositing a layer of carbon in the muffler. When used fairly often, nothing happens but if it sets all winter without being run, sometimes rust forms under the carbon and loosens it. The first time it's fired up, chunks fly out. I've had the same thing with gas engined combines that had set from one harvest season to the next. So if you engine has set for a long time or had often set for long periods between runs, that's probably where all that stuff came from. Remember that short runs don't get the muffler and tail pipes hot enough for long enough to evaporate all the condensation out, so with lots of short runs, especially in winter and there's probably a lot of moisture setting inside the pipes causing rust.

MagikDraggin
03-10-2007, 11:42 PM
quote:Originally posted by John Kirchhoff

If you have the head removed, you can usually see the hardened seat pressed into the head around the valve. Without the head off, there's really no way to tell.
Well, since I am a firm believer in the "if it ain't broke, don't try and fix it" philosophy, I guess I'll just leave it be until something "breaks".


quote:So if you engine has set for a long time or had often set for long periods between runs, that's probably where all that stuff came from. Remember that short runs don't get the muffler and tail pipes hot enough for long enough to evaporate all the condensation out, so with lots of short runs, especially in winter and there's probably a lot of moisture setting inside the pipes causing rust.

I can't say for sure, not knowing the previous owners' driving habits, but beings that the Hawk came from Ontario Canada, it'd probably be a safe bet to say it did indeed "sit for extended periods of time" through the winter months.

Thanks for the response and info.

Karl

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v147/MagikDraggin/Other%20Stuff/62StudebakerGTHawk1-small.jpg
1962 GT Hawk 4sp

55studeman
03-11-2007, 12:17 AM
I've got the black soot and condensation too, literally two black trails on my driveway. You don't really see smoking especially when warmed up but I get sooty stuff at start up. When driving I had my wife behind me and she said smoke would come out when I accel and decelerated hard. So mines from worn valve seals as well as worn rings in a few cylinders...saving up some money to fix it.

E. West
"The Speedster Kid"
Sunny Northern California
Where the roads don't freeze over and the heat doesn't kill you.
And an open road is yours to have -only during non-commute rush hours 9am-4pm and 7pm to 7am (Ha, ha, ha)

MagikDraggin
03-11-2007, 12:35 AM
quote:Originally posted by 55studeman

I've got the black soot and condensation too, literally two black trails on my driveway. You don't really see smoking especially when warmed up but I get sooty stuff at start up. When driving I had my wife behind me and she said smoke would come out when I accel and decelerated hard. So mines from worn valve seals as well as worn rings in a few cylinders...saving up some money to fix it.

E. West
"The Speedster Kid"
Sunny Northern California
Where the roads don't freeze over and the heat doesn't kill you.
And an open road is yours to have -only during non-commute rush hours 9am-4pm and 7pm to 7am (Ha, ha, ha)



Hmmm, that could be a distinct possibility. Looks like it's time to do a cylinder pressure test. I wouldn't think re-ringing and putting in new valve seals in a Stude engine is too tough a job, is it? At least as long as the cylinders don't need honing.

However......on mine, when I replaced the plugged up muffler, I no longer get the carbon blast on start up out of that pipe....but I do out of the one I did not replace. Nahhh, I'll still do a pressure test anyway. Thanks for the tip.

Karl

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v147/MagikDraggin/Other%20Stuff/62StudebakerGTHawk1-small.jpg
1962 GT Hawk 4sp

dynolou2
03-11-2007, 12:47 AM
Maybe its time to replace the other muffler as it seems to be full of carbon and rust. I had a truck that I worked on for an older gent, he was complaining that it was running rough,most of his driving was around town. All it took was a little trip on freeway,in 3rd floored at 65, a peek in mirror showed redish deposits coming from tailpipe,then cleared up. He later asked me what I had done to improve its running condition. Just blew the carbon out. Lou [8D]

Roscomacaw
03-11-2007, 05:14 AM
You DO NOT NEED the hardened seats in your Stude engine. Use the several hundred bucks you'd spend to do this on some nice chrome or something that actually adds value or is just nice to look at.;) In a Stude engine, you can't SEE those pretty, new seats and they don't buy you anything in performance or longevity.:D Not much return for investment![V]

Miscreant adrift in
the BerStuda Triangle
http://images.andale.com/f2/115/106/906179/2006/12/7/truckonhill3.jpg

1957 Transtar 1/2ton
1960 Larkvertible V8
1958 Provincial wagon
1953 Commander coupe

showbizkid
03-11-2007, 10:10 AM
I'm surmising here, Bob, but is that because of the Stude block's high nickel content? That was the reason for not needing hardened seats in my old AMC Jeep V8's - the block was hard enough already.


[img=left]http://members.cox.net/clarknovak/lark.gif[/img=left]

Clark in San Diego
'63 F2/Lark Standard
http://studeblogger.blogspot.com

Mike Van Veghten
03-11-2007, 11:06 AM
Mr. Miscreant, exactly how do you know he doesn't need hard seats? Do you know what kind of driving he does, or how deep his seats are now?

How many recessed seats have you guys seen? Me...more than I care to see. I'm not talking 1/8" here...I'm talking in .010"/.020"+ deep. If there's one...the problem needs fixing.

The myth of high nickle cast iron...what exactly IS a high nickle content? 1/2%, 1%, 2% more...what?

In the porting I've done for over 30 years...the Stude heads do NOT tear up cutters any faster or show a different spark when ground than any other Big Three cast iron! So...how do you tell there's more nickle?
Passed down from years of someone comming up with the idea from the clear blue.?
The old "high Nickle" GM blocks of the 70's....you COULD tell their nickle content was higher than other cast iron...in the ways I mentioned above.

I'm not saying that they may not have more nickle than "Studes" [u]earlier</u> iron parts...I'm saying it isn't high enough to be called "high Nickle" as per 50's thru 80's Big Three iron parts.

Wives tails...I love'em.

Mike

Roscomacaw
03-11-2007, 11:40 AM
Well Mike, 34 years of driving Studes - truly driving them as they were intended and not just to Friday night cruises or for a sprint down the track on occassion - PLUS the opinions of MANY MORE knowledgeable STUDE-specific gearheads are what makes up my summary. How many Stude heads have you personally had to FIX or replace in your career?
Frankly, I'm still waiting to hear of a set of Stude V8 heads with a really badly recessed valve seat(s) that might could have been saved by hardened inserts. Not that one or two instances would constitute an honest "Gothcha!" There's WAY TOO MANY Studes driving around without them - either freshly redone or vintage.
Do you read the Co-operator column? How come it's not awash with woeful tales of costly repairs of precautionary retro-fits?

I've not done any head work in the sense of porting, polishing etc., but I have done a number of valve jobs in the past - when I had access to the equipment. Point is, I'm not totally without first-hand insight. And I've been driving (remember, not toy-timing) my Studes on unleaded since it was intro'd to SoCal in the early 80s. Still waiting for my first valve/valve seat failure.;) Maybe this fresh engine in Pete will prove to be my spoke-stick.[8]
But of course, my experiences are purely anecdotal. There's just gotta be some statistics tabulated somewheres what'll set me straight. Of course, it IS Karl's money when it gets right down to it.:)

I thought about this over breakfast, Mike. You're right - I need to do some calling and lend some credence to my advice here. I'm going to call on every builder of Stude engines that I know of and ask them for their slant on the necessity of hardened seats. My personal experience/observations aren't good enough to make an honest and qualified call on this. And it isn't fair to newbies that we only offer opinions as opposed to proof when hundreds (actually thousands if you totally farm out the revision to a shop)of dollars are at stake.
It wasn't too long ago that I recommended a friend to a guy I'd heard of (second hand) who'd made it known that he was up to reworking Studebaker heads for performance gains. I was involved in the building of the vehicle that would ultimately end up using the engine I was advising/assisting in the construction of. I told my friend to resist the head specialist's advice if said specialist recommended hardened seats be installed in the course of the rework. When the heads were finished, my friend related how he'd relented to the specialist's insistance that seats be incorporated. He allowed as how the guy was adamant that they MUST be used or failure would result. So much for the old line about the customer always being right, I guess. Cost my friend an extra $400 or so if I remember right. BTW, the engine runs fine. It's gotten maybe 2 hours on it since it was brought to life a couple of years ago.[^]
What was interesting tho, was that after that set of heads was returned, the expert groaned about how much more time had been involved than he'd estimated when he took on the work. He'd purportedly lost money with all the extra hours those labor-intensive Stude heads required when all was said and done. I suppose that one could surmise these were the FIRST of any Stude heads the "expert" had ever actually laid hands on. Of course, I don't know this to be fact.[:I]

Anyway, like I said - we need a consensus here so we can advise folks as to what's what regarding this question. We're here to help and it's not fair to hand someone off to a repair facility for guidance. Not when we have a vast pool of expertise and experience to draw from thruout SDC.;)

Miscreant adrift in
the BerStuda Triangle
http://images.andale.com/f2/115/106/906179/2006/12/7/truckonhill3.jpg

1957 Transtar 1/2ton
1960 Larkvertible V8
1958 Provincial wagon
1953 Commander coupe

Mike Van Veghten
03-11-2007, 02:11 PM
To answer your question about the "co-operator"...
Maybe it's because most Stude owners don't drive there cars as much as I do, or maybe yourself. My Lark is my everyday car...And I know how much I have to adjust the Exhaust rockers...NOT the intakes!

I'd still like to see an actual Stude block and head iron "actually" analyzed for it's exact material content.
And then have some of the Big Three iron done...and put the papers side by side and truly see who's got the nickle.

As I've said before...I won't change your mind...and you won't be changing mine. At least on this subject.

As a side note...and I've said this before...I do not recomend putting hard seats on cars driven low miles per year or cars not running the Silver State Crown race!

Mike

MagikDraggin
03-11-2007, 03:26 PM
Ok, ok, I didn't mean to foment any kind of debate on this valve seat matter.....I do appreciate all ideas and comments, "pro or con".

Getting back to the subject at hand, let's just for conversation "assume" (no wise cracks now), that I would be better off having hardened valve seats.

I remember reading that it is possible to purchase a product which essentially amounts to Tetra-Ethyl-Lead in a can, that can be added to unleaded gasoline, in order to provide the necessary lubrication to the valves that modern unleaded fuels lack.

Has anyone heard of this and would it be a logical (at least reasonable) alternative to removing the heads and having hardened seats installed? Remember, this is just for conversation purposes only....assuming, the Hawk needs those seats.

Karl &lt;in Iowa&gt;

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v147/MagikDraggin/Other%20Stuff/62StudebakerGTHawk1-small.jpg
1962 GT Hawk 4sp

hawk gt 62 rhd
03-11-2007, 03:34 PM
Hello there from Holland.
Igot more and more surprised reading this topic
I am driving on LPG every day now and there is no trouble with valves because of the supply of valvestuff in stead of lead.
Karl would be wise to set his carb to proper CO% with the two screws in the front and do as told in the answers given on the CO item a few weeks ago
And also look at his spark plugs and the little springs in his distributor and if course his timing
and in my knowledge valve seats are worn when it is impossible to set them.
greetings lm waterreus oud beijerland

MagikDraggin
03-11-2007, 03:39 PM
quote:Originally posted by hawk gt 62 rhd

Hello there from Holland.
Igot more and more surprised reading this topic
I am driving on LPG every day now and there is no trouble with valves because of the supply of valvestuff in stead of lead.
Karl would be wise to set his carb to proper CO% with the two screws in the front and do as told in the answers given on the CO item a few weeks ago
And also look at his spark plugs and the little springs in his distributor and if course his timing
and in my knowledge valve seats are worn when it is impossible to set them.
greetings lm waterreus oud beijerland


You say I should set the carb A/F screws to the CO (carbon monoxide) setting?

Never heard of that and have absolutely no idea how to do it. You say this was discussed a few weeks ago? How do I search for old threads?

Karl &lt;in Iowa&gt;

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v147/MagikDraggin/Other%20Stuff/62StudebakerGTHawk1-small.jpg
1962 GT Hawk 4sp

Roscomacaw
03-11-2007, 04:07 PM
Karl,

We're glad you're here! Don't worry about startin' a fuss. The only dumb question is the one not asked.;)

The lead replacement stuff is as much a waste as the seats. It's kinda like takin' a garlic pill every day. If you live to be a hundred, you can attribute the feat to the garlic pill, if you don't take one every day and die at only 96 or so, well, there ya go! Should have taken that damned cheap supplement pill every day.[}:)] You know - "Clinically Proven!"

Lessee.......... when you fill up next time, add some Mystery oil for upper end lubrication, some lead substitute to protect the valve seats, some octane booster to suppress pre-ignition, and some fuel system cleaner to keep the carb in great shape!
Add some STP to the crankcase cause that's what Stude promoted (never mind that they owned the Co. at the time) along with some "Motor Medic" to stop leaks and quell oil-burning.
Save the last quarter of that STP can for your tranny - automatic, stick - doesn't matter. Says so right on the can.
Make sure you don't overlook the rear axle with additives to alleviate wear and protect TT clutches. and last, but not least, get some Bar's Leak in the cooling system to protect it as well as some water wetter and a can of water pump lube to prolong pump life. Now you're ready for the road![:p]:D

Miscreant adrift in
the BerStuda Triangle
http://images.andale.com/f2/115/106/906179/2006/12/7/truckonhill3.jpg

1957 Transtar 1/2ton
1960 Larkvertible V8
1958 Provincial wagon
1953 Commander coupe

MagikDraggin
03-11-2007, 04:51 PM
Heh, heh, heh...great sense of humor you have there, Mr Biggs. I think I get the point:D Thanks

Karl &lt;in Iowa&gt;

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v147/MagikDraggin/Other%20Stuff/62StudebakerGTHawk1-small.jpg
1962 GT Hawk 4sp

John Kirchhoff
03-11-2007, 04:56 PM
Hmmm, Mr. Biggs, were you being sarcastic??? Ha, love it! I tend to agree with you though, I think sometimes the additive market is a lot like the livestock feed business. The feed salesman is going to tell you that you need all that stuff he sells while his competition is going to tell you that you need his stuff instead.

As far as seat recession goes, maybe a person should do like I've done on my bike since it was new. Every time I checked the valve clearance, I'd write down the clearance for each one. As I racked up the miles, they all tightened up just a bit (double overhead cam, so they tighten with wear) but invariably some tightened up faster than others and it was always the same ones. Checking the valves on a Stude isn't that big of a deal, so if you're paranoid about it, just check them every couple thousand miles and write down the clearances. If you see a pattern of some tightening up while others don't or get looser, then maybe it't time to investigate further. Just don't jump to conclusions based on one valve adjustment but look at the results of several checks.

One bad thing about hardened seats is that you sure want someone who knows that they're doing to put them in. I've known of an engine or two where the seat came loose and destroyed the piston and head. I don't know if the seats actually came loose or they cracked and then came out, but either way, having a super hard seat jingling around the waist of the valve like a hula dancer sure ain't something you want!

Roscomacaw
03-11-2007, 05:28 PM
Yes, very much with tongue-in-cheek was that whacked out on my keyboard. But I don't have much faith in "potions". And my lack of faith was reaffirmed when I tried vainly to patch Pete's cooling system with "Guaranteed!", pour in and go goop! What one won't resort to in desperation!

And John, I've read of such failures as well. I like the old rule of keeping it simple. 8 or 16 more pieces are not simplification.
OTOH, Mike does heads for money. Maybe his expertise trumps my years of Stude experience.
Local machine shops will ALWAYS argue with you over the worth of these seats as regards Studebakers. Since they maybe see one or two a decade (if that often!), they'd rather cover their warranty-liable butts (at your expense of course) given what they know from SBCs, SBFs and the like.

JDP, Dwain, Bob..... how often do you guys install seats or recommend such?

Miscreant adrift in
the BerStuda Triangle
http://images.andale.com/f2/115/106/906179/2006/12/7/truckonhill3.jpg

1957 Transtar 1/2ton
1960 Larkvertible V8
1958 Provincial wagon
1953 Commander coupe

bige
03-11-2007, 05:56 PM
I've been using the same machinist for 33 years now. We worked together at one of the parts stores I managed. He's done heads for me on 4 different makes of brand "X"'s in the past 10 years and recommended hardened seats on all...'til I brought him a pair of Stude heads that I bought fromm Steeltech that had R3 valves installed. I didn't like the look of the cut on the seats so I brought them to my guy to make them "nice". I told him to put hardened seats in while he was in there. When I picked up the heads he told me that he didn't feel I needed the seats and that the Stude head "felt" like it had hardened seats already. JK never had any problem spending my money as he know's that whatever he said I needed I would do no questions asked. Also the heads I took off had been on the car for about 7 years showed no signs of sinking valves. So, if the car is an occasional driver my opinion would be to save the money on the seats and install a new exhaust system.

ErnieR


http://i146.photobucket.com/albums/r241/AvantiR2/avnatiglamour007.jpg

Roscomacaw
03-11-2007, 11:03 PM
This thread spurred my memory a bit and I remembered when: 1. I took a block in to have it bored .040 over. The guy that owned the shop quoted me a price. When I went back to pick it up, he apologized for the fact that my bill was more than he'd estimated. He told me that the block just couldn't be cut with the same sorta bite he usually used because the metal was just too tough.
In another instance - different shop - they didn't charge me more than the standard charge for the work they did, but the shop foreman commented that they'd been surprized at how resistant the material was to being cut. "What the heck's that thing made of?" he teased.[}:)]

Miscreant adrift in
the BerStuda Triangle
http://images.andale.com/f2/115/106/906179/2006/12/7/truckonhill3.jpg

1957 Transtar 1/2ton
1960 Larkvertible V8
1958 Provincial wagon
1953 Commander coupe

Chucks Stude
03-12-2007, 10:37 AM
I had a machinist tell me he would rather cut 6 sbc blocks, then another one of them *%#$ Studebakers.....

Dick Steinkamp
03-12-2007, 11:18 AM
It's natural that we feel our Studebakers are "something special", but if you go over to the Pontiac forum...same thing. Oldsmobile guys love their cars too. We wouldn't be into Studebakers if we thought they were "average".

When it comes down to "facts", however, we often come up short. Plenty of anecdotal evidence (Uncle Harry drove his '51 Commander for 320,000 miles and didn't ever even have to change the oil).

We did a thread on the fabled "McKinnon" engines a while back. We wanted to believe they were not just small block Chevy's. Studebaker wouldn't stoop to install a small block Chevy in their cars! With the facts, they turned out to be just small block Chevys.

I owned a '65 Chevy with a 283 back in the day. Ran it for well over 200,000 miles and the motor wasn't using any oil between 3,000 mile changes when I traded it in on a new '71 Datsun. I bought a '88 GMC Safari van new...essentially 6/8ths of a small block Chevy. Drove it for 260,000 miles with no motor problems...not a water pump, or anything. Used no oil ever. With a couple of more stories about Small Block Chevy's from friends and relatives, I've soon got enough "facts" to claim these motors were indestructible.

It's OK to post anecdotes. Makes it an interesting and fun forum. Opinions are always important. But let's not claim these motors were made of "tougher" metal than anything else out there...had a higher nickel content (whatever "higher" means), etc. unless we can post some facts...not more anecdotes, but facts. Nickel content of a Stude V8 vs a Chevy V8 would be a good start...along with what more nickel means and does. Without the facts, we are about as bad as the ones we laugh at that say our cars have Ford 289's in them, are still made in Canada, and were serviced by Dodge dealers.

http://thenobot.org/images/s2d/s2d_01.jpg

Transtar60
03-12-2007, 01:03 PM
Dick you make some good points, but it would take a very large bank account, a very large number of full time technicians, and a large supply of test material(ie engine blocks, heads) to come up with an incontrevertible "book of facts".:D

We're all just doing the best we can, with the information and experience we have. And it is a Studebaker forum after all. [8D]

http://racingstudebakers.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10056/5E13%20Pic%203.JPG
3E38
4E2
4E28
5E13
7E7
8E7
8E12
8E28
4E2
59 Lark
etc

Roscomacaw
03-12-2007, 02:18 PM
Let's not write off personal experiences. Anecdotal tho they might be, I doubt there's been many instances where Stude V8s were torn down because their valve seats were/are eroding. It's one thing to say "Ohh - Ohh!! You gotta put hardened seats in unless you plan on driving Granny style to a local cruise once a month!"
That option is dumb given that you might wanna peddle the car later and if eroding valve seats were epidemic in nature, we'd wanna spend the extra bucks so that we could sell with confidence even if WE didn't need the insurance by virtue of our feather-foot ways of driving.
This whole argument is silly unless we start to hear of numbers of Studes having to be torn apart to fix the problem. There's the engine I took outta Pete last month. I had the valves done in '89 because one VALVE was burnt. It's gone for over a hundred thousand miles since that valve job (all those miles since the redo on unleaded gas I might add) without a problem attributed to the valves. Heh - in my less-than-strict maintenance "schedule", the valves got checked in '96 when I put new seals on them and maybe honestly ONCE since '96. T'aint broke, don't fix it!
I'm doubtful that the engine's recent lust for coolant is attributed to valve seat failure, 'course, I've yet to pull it apart 'cause I have too much else to do.:(

My whole point to all this is that we constantly carp about how terribly expensive it is to rehab an honest and truly great, REAL, Studebaker part - the engine. And yet wanna make it even MORE expensive to buy us little more than insurance. It's like I said about taking a garlic pill - or a daily vitamin, for that matter.
Figure $400 or more to effect this bit of insurance. But of course, it's your money.:D
Put a SBC or V6 in there! Much cheaper and you'll be the envy of the Saturday night crowd. It's only appearnces that count anyways. Or at least I though so the FIRST time I was married.[V]

Miscreant adrift in
the BerStuda Triangle
http://images.andale.com/f2/115/106/906179/2006/12/7/truckonhill3.jpg

1957 Transtar 1/2ton
1960 Larkvertible V8
1958 Provincial wagon
1953 Commander coupe

Dick Steinkamp
03-12-2007, 03:04 PM
quote:Originally posted by Transtar60
it would take a very large bank account, a very large number of full time technicians, and a large supply of test material(ie engine blocks, heads) to come up with an incontrevertible "book of facts".:D



Here's a start...

http://www.grapeaperacing.com/tech/engineblocks.pdf

On page 3 under "Research" it explains the "code" for small block Chevy's with added tin and/or nickel and explains the advantage of added nickel.



http://thenobot.org/images/s2d/s2d_01.jpg

Dwain G.
03-12-2007, 03:20 PM
I was asked by another forum member why I haven't put in my two cents worth on this subject yet. I'm not sure there is one definite answer. While there is no apparent epidemic of recessed valve seats,
there will always be heads/blocks that need new seats.
Originally, 'false' seats were used to restore proper valve height on a head or block that had been ground several times previously, or to cut out a heat crack in the valve seat area.
I would want a guarantee that the seat(s) was never going to come loose!
As to Studebaker block/head hardness and alloy composition, I imagine that it probably varied somewhat in a mass production environment.


http://home.comcast.net/~jdwain/63.63.jpg
Dwain G.

1956 Hawk
03-12-2007, 05:41 PM
Just a thought here, but if all it took to run unleaded gas was to add more nickel, don't you think that's what the big three would be doing on their heads?
I have one engine right now that needs to have hardened seats installed. The inside exhaust valves (3,5,4,6) have recessed about 1/8". I have also seen this on several other Studebaker heads. So I know it can be a problem.
From what I have figured out from talking to the experts is that it's not so much that Studebaker heads don't need hardened seats it's that there isn't enough material to safely install hardened seats. Of course I have put hardened seats in several heads without any problems, but considering how much core shift there is I could see how you might cut into a water passage putting them in.
David

Tom B
03-12-2007, 07:59 PM
Speaking of anecdotal incidents, at SB in 02, Carl Thoms related that before driving to SB in an early year in their '51 Land Cruiser, they had ground one exhaust valve seat because it was leaking. All the other valve seats were good and had a coating of 'stuff' on them, probably containing lead. As they approached the mid west, they had to adjust that one exhaust valve. Before they got back to the coast, it needed adjustment again, finally sinking into the head nearly a quarter inch. His conclusion was that if the seats were well coated with the stuff that came from lead in gas, they would continue to be lubricated, but new seats would erode.

[img=left]http://www.alink.com/personal/tbredehoft/Bothcars.jpg[/img=left]
Tom Bredehoft
'53 Commander Coupe
'60 Lark VI
'05 Legacy Ltd Wagon
All three Indiana built OD cars

John Kirchhoff
03-12-2007, 08:35 PM
Interesting website, Dick. I know this doesn't have anything to do with Studes, but it is on the nickel subject. In the mid-late '70s BMW stopped using cast iron cylinder liners in their air cooled (motorcycle) aluminum cylinder blocks in favor of a process called Nickelsil (I think I spelled that correctly). They claimed the electrolitic action between the aluminum and cast iron caused a reduction in heat transfer between the two. Anyone familiar with the '70s all aluminum Chevy Vega or throw away Briggs & Stratton lawn mower engine knows that aluminum has really poor wear characteristics. The Nicklesil process consisted of spraying a molten layer of nickle onto the aluminum cylinder wich resulted in a light weight cylinder with good heat transfer and wear characteristics. The only problem was that when they did wear or got skinned up, you tossed them because boring them removed the paper thin layer of nickle. I could be wrong, but I believe they stopped using that process a good while back or at least I haven't heard it mentioned for a mighty long time.