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PalmerGA
09-16-2005, 10:44 AM
Here's another one for you Stude-brains: I'm told my heat riser valve needs replacing.

I can hold a hand at each tailpipe with the engine running (I have dual exhaust) and the driver's side is thumping pretty good, but the passenger's side exhaust is about half that. It doesn't improve much when the engine's fully heated either. Just in case, I did a compression check on all the cylinders and they are right up to specs (or better) - thank goodness.

Aside from unsticking the rusty bolts, is there any real trick to replacing the whole valve assembly? It appears that my '63, 289 c.i., needs part number 536171. Is this the entire assembly... everything I'll need?

By the way, I know I could ask my buddies at Stephen Allen's these questions, but it's more interesting reading y'all's responses. Thanks.

Jim's pride....
1963 Daytona Convertible

Sonny
09-16-2005, 06:23 PM
quote:Originally posted by PalmerGA

Here's another one for you Stude-brains: I'm told my heat riser valve needs replacing.

I can hold a hand at each tailpipe with the engine running (I have dual exhaust) and the driver's side is thumping pretty good, but the passenger's side exhaust is about half that. It doesn't improve much when the engine's fully heated either. Just in case, I did a compression check on all the cylinders and they are right up to specs (or better) - thank goodness.

Aside from unsticking the rusty bolts, is there any real trick to replacing the whole valve assembly? It appears that my '63, 289 c.i., needs part number 536171. Is this the entire assembly... everything I'll need?

By the way, I know I could ask my buddies at Stephen Allen's these questions, but it's more interesting reading y'all's responses. Thanks.

Jim's pride....
1963 Daytona Convertible


Didn't you just put a new Edelbrock with an electric choke on Jim? If ya did, you don't need that heat riser at all. In fact, if you have an old pipe laying around, cut the flange end off, grind it nice and flat and use that to replace the heat riser. One of the Stude vendors sells a blank replacement for the heat riser.

You don't need, (hell, nobody needs), that hot exhaust going into the intake and under your carb. I highly recommend that everyone who reads this buys an electric choke cap from Edelbrock, replace their old heat operated cap on their original carb. and eliminate that heat riser. It's one of the worst things that we have on our engines. No cooling water goes through the intake and just put your hand on the intake after a nice stretch of highway to find out how much heat goes through there.

Heat risers were necessary when we didn't have the reliable technology that's available to us today. Also, Jeff Rice is making/selling some neat stainless block off plates for the passages in the intake. If you ever have the need to R&R the intake, get the plates and block off the intake crossover passages completely.

No real trick to replacing/eliminating the heat riser, unless you break the exhaust studs off. [:0]

Sonny
http://RacingStudebakers.com

Mike Van Veghten
09-16-2005, 06:45 PM
Sonny................that doesn't help the exhaust flow into the intake manifold.

When the desire strikes....buy or make a set of intake gaskets that blocks off the exhaust heat passage into the manifold to help that "hot" intake manifold problem. Both sides.

And yea...you're right, unless you live in an area where it gets "real" cold and you're driving your Stude.

Sonny
09-16-2005, 08:11 PM
quote:Originally posted by Mike Van Veghten

Sonny................that doesn't help the exhaust flow into the intake manifold.

When the desire strikes....buy or make a set of intake gaskets that blocks off the exhaust heat passage into the manifold to help that "hot" intake manifold problem. Both sides.

And yea...you're right, unless you live in an area where it gets "real" cold and you're driving your Stude.


Mike, the heat riser "doesn't help the exhaust flow into the intake manifold." Huh[?]

You'd have to make intake gaskets with a layer of steel in 'em. There's no intake gasket made for our Studes that can take the heat of the exhaust gasses passing through the intake heat passages, they burn out eventually, ya need something metallic blocking the passage off. Almost every Stude V8 ya see has burnt intake paint.......

I should have mentioned that a fella can also install a hand choke kit when he blocks the hot air in the intake. It's so easy it's almost a no-brainer.




Sonny
http://RacingStudebakers.com

PalmerGA
09-16-2005, 09:00 PM
quote:From Sonny...Didn't you just put a new Edelbrock with an electric choke on Jim? If ya did, you don't need that heat riser at all. In fact, if you have an old pipe laying around, cut the flange end off, grind it nice and flat and use that to replace the heat riser. One of the Stude vendors sells a blank replacement for the heat riser.

You don't need, (hell, nobody needs), that hot exhaust going into the intake and under your carb. I highly recommend that everyone who reads this buys an electric choke cap from Edelbrock, replace their old heat operated cap on their original carb. and eliminate that heat riser. It's one of the worst things that we have on our engines. No cooling water goes through the intake and just put your hand on the intake after a nice stretch of highway to find out how much heat goes through there.

Heat risers were necessary when we didn't have the reliable technology that's available to us today. Also, Jeff Rice is making/selling some neat stainless block off plates for the passages in the intake. If you ever have the need to R&R the intake, get the plates and block off the intake crossover passages completely.

No real trick to replacing/eliminating the heat riser, unless you break the exhaust studs off. [:0]

Sonny
http://RacingStudebakers.com
Sonny, my man... music to my ears. ;) Yes, I did just put an electric choke Edelbrock on my baby. So I don't need the riser at all, eh? Sounds good to me. On very rare occasions, it gets below freezing for a day or two at a time down here in SW Georgia. But I won't be driving my car on those days anyway.

So now I just have to find the vendor who sells the blank replacement for the riser. The search is on! As I hunt for one, if anyone can give me a source I'd appreciate it.

Thanks much. I'll let you know what I find.

Jim's pride....
1963 Daytona Convertible

whacker
09-16-2005, 09:24 PM
If your heat riser is already broke, why not just use it? That's what I did. Just remove the flapper and put a couple of spots of weld on the holes where the linkage rod went thru. You know it'll fit.

PalmerGA
09-16-2005, 09:58 PM
quote:Originally posted by whacker

If your heat riser is already broke, why not just use it? That's what I did. Just remove the flapper and put a couple of spots of weld on the holes where the linkage rod went thru. You know it'll fit.
After an hour of "surfing" to find that site that sells a "blank" riser valve (with no luck) I'm thinking.... Wait a minute. Couldn't I just remove the little butterfly valve that's inside the flange and be done with it? So I go back to the SDC sight to ask for opinions on the idea and - bingo! Someone already posted a suggestion to do the same thing. Amazing. Lazy minds think alike! (Just kidding whacker);)

Bottom line here: Does anyone know why I couldn't do that? Any harm in doing it? Thanks.

Jim's pride....
1963 Daytona Convertible

Sonny
09-16-2005, 10:43 PM
quote:Originally posted by PalmerGA
Sonny, my man... music to my ears. ;) Yes, I did just put an electric choke Edelbrock on my baby. So I don't need the riser at all, eh? Sounds good to me. On very rare occasions, it gets below freezing for a day or two at a time down here in SW Georgia. But I won't be driving my car on those days anyway.

So now I just have to find the vendor who sells the blank replacement for the riser. The search is on! As I hunt for one, if anyone can give me a source I'd appreciate it.

Thanks much. I'll let you know what I find.

Jim's pride....
1963 Daytona Convertible


Great! You have an electric choke now and if ya plugged it into a 12 volt wire somewhere, no matter how cold it gets, you're covered Jimbo.

Yep, Whacker's all over it, heck yeah you can use the old heat riser by buzzing off the flapper. BUT, a number of, (actually more often than not), the housings on the ones I've taken off were cracked, broken and/or crumbly, fell right apart. I've used that old exhaust pipe flange trick twice now, (the last one just a couple of weeks ago on a nice '64 Daytona), works like a Champion! :D

Did you check with Stude International for the blanks? For some reason I keep thinking T-Bow is the fella selling the blank heat risers....

Sonny
http://RacingStudebakers.com

DEEPNHOCK
09-16-2005, 10:57 PM
You can't just use gasket material to block off the crossover port. The gasket material will eventually burn through.
An old drag racer trick was to cram aluminum foil into the heat crossover port(s) of the intake manifold and then seal the end with some JB Weld. I've done that before and it has worked, but I also foind aluminum in the exhaust port one time, so I stopped doing that. Since I have been making the 4bbl AFB ready intake manifolds, I have gotten a lot of requests for installation kits. Soo.. I have built up a kit using the real good soft intake gaskets (from Meyers Studebaker), and a thick heat insulating base gasket, 4 studs/nuts/lock washers....and... two small stainless steel block off plated for the heat crossover ports. (All this for $29.95 a kit).(shameless plug)

The method for installing the kit is easy.
(with a blocked open, or removed heat riser valve)
Get a tube of Permatex 'Ultra Copper' gasket sealant.
(1) Put a light film of Ultra Copper on the exhaust port sealing surface of the intake manifold (NOT the head) and place the stainless block off plate in place.
(2) Place a light film of Ultra copper around the intake port openings of the intake gasket, and a light film around the heat crossover part of the gasket.
(3) Carefully place the intake gasket onto the intake manifold so the sealant is against the manifold and the dry side is facing out (and sandwiching the stainless blockoff plates between the gasket and the intake manifold). Align the gasket so the manifold bolt holes on each end are lined up. Press the gasket into place so it is smooth with no gooey lumps od sealer. If you have sealer oozing out the sides of the gasket, you are making big money for the gasket sealer company, and making a mess of your manifold. A light film is all you need. The gasket takes care of the big irregularities, the sealer takes care of the microscopic irregularities. Do both gaskets on the manifold this way.
(4) Walk away from the manifold and let it set overnight.
(5) After cleaning and prepping the intake gasket surfaces on the cylinder head (and vacuuming out the ports to get any debris out of there).... Take a finger of chassis grease and smear a light film of grease on the gasket surface on the head.
(6) Place the intake manifold on the head(s) and align the 4 corner bolt holes. (the grease makes it very easy to align the manifold without messing up the gasket)
(7) Install all eight intake bolts and spreader bard and run the bolts in finger tight.
(8) Sterting with one of the center bolts, tighten the bolts using a circular pattern to 10 ft lbs, then to 20 ft lbs, then to 30 ft lbs. It is imperative to do it this way to keep the manifold square and evenly torqued down.
(9) Install the carb, vacuum lines, and linkages.

By installing the heat blockoff plates, you will prevent exhaust gasses from passing through the intake manifold, heating up the carburator and possibly causing vapor lock. It also keeps the exhaust heat from burning off the paint on the intake manifold. Don't worry, there is still plenty of convected heat there to warm the carb when it is cool out. Unless your Stude is used year round and is run a lot below freezing, this is a good option.

Sorry for the long reply, but it is a good question and deserves a good answer.
Jeff[8D]



quote:Originally posted by Mike Van Veghten

Sonny................that doesn't help the exhaust flow into the intake manifold.

When the desire strikes....buy or make a set of intake gaskets that blocks off the exhaust heat passage into the manifold to help that "hot" intake manifold problem. Both sides.

And yea...you're right, unless you live in an area where it gets "real" cold and you're driving your Stude.


DEEPNHOCK at Cox.net
'37 Coupe Exp

curt
09-17-2005, 11:19 AM
For what it is worth, I had a 1948 Kaiser and the heat riser valve worked fine, the exhaust manifold started cracking, when I replaced the exhaust manifold I found the working fine heat riser valve was just a naked shaft that freely rotated. The new manifold with a good heat riser valve did not seem to make the car work better or worse. Now, I did not drive this car in the winter because of salt, I did drive it in cold weather and hot weather.

1949commander
09-19-2005, 02:13 PM
If you look at most new cars they have no manifold heating at all since today's gasoline vaporizes at a much lower temperature there is little need to add heat to help the process. If you look at a 1920's car the exhaust gas surrounded half the intake manifold since it took a lot of heat to keep the old gas vaporized. Since all cars have had fuel injection since the early 90's the fuel refineries have reformulated the new gas to work better with fuel injection. If you remember there was a problem in the 80's and 90's with carbon build up on intake valves on engines with multi-port fuel injection. This was due to large chain hydrocarbons in the gas at the time. Since then, the problem has subsided since new gas is almost all refined using the modern cracking method which breaks all the hydrocarbons into individual molecules which stay vaporized when they hit the air. (Sorry for the long-winded explanation). My brother brought to my attention that his 1966 Dodge D-500 grain truck with the Poly 318 doesn't even have a riser at all. The heads donít even have a port cast in them, it runs just fine even when it's cold and never vapor locks. [:0] Our 1966 Coronet with the same Poly 318 has all that heat riser junk for the automatic choke, which the D-500 doesn't have. All the heat riser is good for is vapor locking in the summer ;)
If you drive in the cold just add a tube from the snorkel to one of the exhaust manifolds and this will take car of any icing from cold damp air. Itís what they did to later model carbureted cars.

Brian R.

Restore it, don't replace it.Keep the Studebaker reproduction industry going

sasjdw
09-22-2005, 12:07 PM
I read this topic with great interest, because the heat riser valve on my '55 Speedster probably needs to be repaired, replaced or removed - since the coiled bimetal spring on the butterfly is broken and no longer works. So, can I retrofit an electric choke cap on the original 4 bbl carb and just run a new wire (6 volt) to the carb? If so, will the kit that DEEPNHOCK mentioned work on my engine also? Any suggestions?

Thanks in advance!

James D. Wilkerson

Mike Van Veghten
09-22-2005, 12:51 PM
Sonny........

You read my post (way up there!) wrong.
I was saying that removing the valve ONLY...doesn't keep exhaust from the intake manifold. There are four very large exhaust ports pulsing with hot exhaust just looking for a place to go. The intake is just as easy to get to as the exhaust system.

Funny, I've got over 45,000 miles since I put the Offy manifold on with Pep Boys (West Coast store) gasket material, cut up to resemble a Stude intake gasket, with no opening...."and" no burn through. The reason I know there was no burn through is that I took the manifold off to replace the valley cover gasket a short time ago. Maybe the material I used was just thick enough to prevent the burn through, 3/32", maybe even 1/8"...don't remember!

Sonny
09-22-2005, 09:31 PM
quote:Originally posted by Mike Van Veghten

Sonny........

You read my post (way up there!) wrong.
I was saying that removing the valve ONLY...doesn't keep exhaust from the intake manifold. There are four very large exhaust ports pulsing with hot exhaust just looking for a place to go. The intake is just as easy to get to as the exhaust system.

Funny, I've got over 45,000 miles since I put the Offy manifold on with Pep Boys (West Coast store) gasket material, cut up to resemble a Stude intake gasket, with no opening...."and" no burn through. The reason I know there was no burn through is that I took the manifold off to replace the valley cover gasket a short time ago. Maybe the material I used was just thick enough to prevent the burn through, 3/32", maybe even 1/8"...don't remember!


Cool, yeah, I did read it wrong. I agree wholeheartedly, the ports still suck heat into the intake cross over ports and have to be blocked, any way we can.

I didn't think that there was ANY gasket material that would stand up to the temp and pressure from the hot gasses. Hell, mebbe the new, composition gaskets can handle it, that would be GREAT! OR, mebbe your heat riser wasn't working and not funneling nearly all of the hot exhaust from the right side through the intake like normal? I dunno, but I'd like to find SOMEbody making composition gaskets that we could use to block that lousy hole in the intake! Keep us posted on that stuff will ya Mike? Thanks in advance.

Sonny
http://RacingStudebakers.com

Sonny
09-22-2005, 10:01 PM
quote:Originally posted by sasjdw

I read this topic with great interest, because the heat riser valve on my '55 Speedster probably needs to be repaired, replaced or removed - since the coiled bimetal spring on the butterfly is broken and no longer works. So, can I retrofit an electric choke cap on the original 4 bbl carb and just run a new wire (6 volt) to the carb? If so, will the kit that DEEPNHOCK mentioned work on my engine also? Any suggestions?

Thanks in advance!

James D. Wilkerson


Yes, you can retrofit a new style electric cap to you original carb Jim, BUT, I'm pretty sure that they only come in 12 volts, at least I've never seen a 6 volt choke cap. Yes, Jeff Rice's kit will work on your car.

On the other hand, if I had your car, I'd eliminate the heat riser, (using an old xhaust pipe like I've suggested or get the blank sold by one of the Studebaker venders), get Jeff's block off plates, (or find something like it yourself to block the cross over ports), and run a nice copper tube from the fitting on the choke housing, down the outside of the engine to the exhaust manifold like Brian just suggested, (his post was right on!), instead of trying to adapt the electric cap.

Let us know what you decide Jim.

Sonny
http://RacingStudebakers.com

gordr
09-23-2005, 01:49 AM
There is no question in my mind that a heat riser helps your car stay running after a cold start in COLD weather, and also provides the heat needed to actuate the choke thermostat. By preventing raw gas from pooling in the manifold, it helps prevent accelerated wear caused by gas washing the cylinder bores.

There's also no question in my mind that most of the folks debating this question are from Sunbelt states where 9 out of 10 natives wouldn't recognize a snow shovel if you clobbered them on the head with one.[:p]

If you regularly drive your Stude on days when there's ice on the water bucket, then keep the heat riser. OTOH, if you park the Stude as soon as the mosquitoes fly South for the Winter, then you could dispense with it and plug the crossover passage, too.

But don't plug the crossover passage unless you've also removed the heat riser.

Modern cars with port EFI don't need heat risers or crossover passages because the intake manifold carries only air, no fuel.

Gord Richmond, within Weasel range of the Alberta Badlands

DEEPNHOCK
09-24-2005, 07:49 AM
Well said Gordon...Well said.
That is why all my instructions and listings say that this modification is an 'option' that is designed for warmer climates, or Stude's that are only driven in fair weather. I do believe that the 'curve' of Studebaker useage is trending toward the fair weather driving crowd. But the factory design works very well in cold climates. Stude owners need to put that heat riser on their maintenance checklist to check for proper operation. I get a lot of calls and e-mails and when I ask about the valve, many don't even know it is there, or how to check it for proper operation.
Jeff[8D]




quote:Originally posted by gordr

There is no question in my mind that a heat riser helps your car stay running after a cold start in COLD weather, and also provides the heat needed to actuate the choke thermostat. By preventing raw gas from pooling in the manifold, it helps prevent accelerated wear caused by gas washing the cylinder bores.

There's also no question in my mind that most of the folks debating this question are from Sunbelt states where 9 out of 10 natives wouldn't recognize a snow shovel if you clobbered them on the head with one.[:p]

If you regularly drive your Stude on days when there's ice on the water bucket, then keep the heat riser. OTOH, if you park the Stude as soon as the mosquitoes fly South for the Winter, then you could dispense with it and plug the crossover passage, too.

But don't plug the crossover passage unless you've also removed the heat riser.

Modern cars with port EFI don't need heat risers or crossover passages because the intake manifold carries only air, no fuel.

Gord Richmond, within Weasel range of the Alberta Badlands


DEEPNHOCK at Cox.net
'37 Coupe Express
'37 Coupe Express Trailer
'61 Hawk
http://community.webshots.com/photo/42559113/426827941Lsvfrz
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Mike
09-24-2005, 08:29 AM
The correct intake manifold gaskets for the R2 engines restricted flow through the heat riser passage. Less exhaust heat was needed with the supercharger.
The left side gasket had a hole that was only about 3/4", there. The SAE "Avanti" paper says they were made of stainless steel; I guess to prevent burn out.
Probably, most people are using wide open gaskets in both sides; and getting way too much heat.
Mike M.

sasjdw
10-20-2005, 12:39 PM
DEEPNHOCK,

I sent you a SASE (via US mail) w/ $ for the exhaust blockoff plates, per your request. I haven't heard back from you. Did you receive my letter? Have you sent the plates? I'm ready to start re-assembly of the engine.

Thanks,

sasjdw

James D. Wilkerson

sasjdw
10-20-2005, 08:38 PM
DEEPNHOCK

I received the blockoff plates today in the mail! Thank you very much.

I went out to install the intake and ran into a little problem...

My intake has a 'tube' or 'snorkel that goes through the top of the manifold and sticks out about 2" past the flange surface that contacts the head. It's just on one side of the manifold. So, in order to block off the exhaust gas ports on the intake, should I cut this tube off or drill a hole in the blockoff plate? If I cut the tube, it will need to be plugged where it exits the top of the manifold. Anybody dealt with this problem?

Thanks in advance.

James D. Wilkerson

N8N
10-20-2005, 08:40 PM
Just drill a little hole in the plate. You COULD cut the tube off and braze the remaining hole shut, but then you're limited to only using an electric choke on that manifold from there on out. There really won't be that much heat coming up under the carb if you have no heat riser and the other side is completely blocked off.

nate

--
55 Commander Starlight
62 Daytona hardtop
http://home.comcast.net/~njnagel

curt
10-20-2005, 08:56 PM
I had the butterfly valve in my Studebaker removed, I now hae just a shaft with out butterfly wings. Car runs great. I'm I causing damage or a problem?

DEEPNHOCK
10-20-2005, 09:52 PM
Not a problem...
Just drill out the tube and tap the hole for a flush mount pipe plug..
Or cut the tube off and JB Weld a short chunk of bolt in the hole.
Since the manifold crossover will be blocked, you should see no pressure against the bolt.
Jeff[8D]



quote:Originally posted by sasjdw

DEEPNHOCK

I received the blockoff plates today in the mail! Thank you very much.

I went out to install the intake and ran into a little problem...

My intake has a 'tube' or 'snorkel that goes through the top of the manifold and sticks out about 2" past the flange surface that contacts the head. It's just on one side of the manifold. So, in order to block off the exhaust gas ports on the intake, should I cut this tube off or drill a hole in the blockoff plate? If I cut the tube, it will need to be plugged where it exits the top of the manifold. Anybody dealt with this problem?

Thanks in advance.

James D. Wilkerson


DEEPNHOCK at Cox.net
'37 Coupe Express
'37 Coupe Express Trailer
'61 Hawk
http://community.webshots.com/photo/42559113/426827941Lsvfrz
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DEEPNHOCK
10-20-2005, 09:54 PM
No, Curt. It will cause no problems.
What it will do is cause the engine to act a little more 'cold blooded' on cold mornings.
Jeff[8D]




quote:Originally posted by curt

I had the butterfly valve in my Studebaker removed, I now hae just a shaft with out butterfly wings. Car runs great. I'm I causing damage or a problem?


DEEPNHOCK at Cox.net
'37 Coupe Express
'37 Coupe Express Trailer
'61 Hawk
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sasjdw
11-14-2005, 05:16 PM
Does anyone know what vendor sells the blank or open heat riser valve for a '55 V8 car. I need to replace the heat riser valve, but I don't want the butterfly valve in it. Mine is too far gone to reuse.

Thanks.

James D. Wilkerson

MarkC
11-14-2005, 06:28 PM
Wow! This topic sure has brought up a lot of information! Here are a few thoughts from my experience.

1. Be careful where you get your 12 volts for the electric choke. If you source it from the coil wire, you won't get 12 volts (except when cranking) if you have the normal resistor or resistance wire used in the primary circuit (assuming you have a stock ignition). Your electric choke will take longer to heat up and pull off if it doesn't get full voltage

2. I advocate using a switch in the electric choke circuit. If you just wire 12 volts in directly from the ignition switch, the choke will start to heat up immediately when you turn the key and may even begin opening before the engine starts. AMC used a reverse oil pressure switch on their late '70's V8 engines with Autolite carbs (and electric chokes) that closed when oil pressure built up. With such a switch, the choke coil won't come on line until the engine has developed oil pressure. A small difference, yes, but if your engine is balky or stubborn, you won't lose the choke effectiveness before it even starts. (I use one of these switches plumbed into the back of the head where the stock mechanical pressure gauge tube is.)

3. I'm not a fan of heat riser valves either, but I do like the choke stoves that were built into the intake manifolds in later years. I plumbed the stock manifold choke stove to supply pre-heated air to electric choke, rather than bypassing it or blocking it off. The two systems work far better together than either one singly, especially in sub-freezing weather. (It's winter half the year up here and you have to deal with it, or park it.)

Thanks for reading. Your method may vary.

MarkC

MarkC, 64 Y8
Working in Spokane, WA