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studeclunker
09-12-2005, 07:03 AM
I have a GMC that has a pretty decent 350 and tranny. how complicated would it be to put this powerplant into one of my Champs? This would'nt be a permanant thing so I don't want to do any cutting or welding. Just exploring possible options...



Lotsa Larks!
K.I.S.S. Keep It Simple Studebaker!
Ron Smith

Roscomacaw
09-12-2005, 10:49 AM
It'll fit in the bed of the truck without any cutting or welding.[:0][xx(][:o)]:D

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1957 Transtar 1/2ton
1960 Larkvertible V8
1958 Provincial wagon
1953 Commander coupe
1957 President 2-dr
1955 President State
1951 Champion Biz cpe
1963 Daytona project FS

Alan
09-12-2005, 03:01 PM
Front and rear mounts, may have to do some drive shaft work, use a mini starter you will think it had power stearing. If you need pictures I can get you some.

oldcarfart
09-13-2005, 11:33 AM
try ignoring the tunnel visioned crowd, it will fit nicely without cutting and rattling the cages of the purists.

65cruiser
09-13-2005, 04:26 PM
What tunnel visioned crowd? Would you guys mind stepping right in front of me so I can see?[8D]:D[:I]


quote:Originally posted by oldcarfart

try ignoring the tunnel visioned crowd, it will fit nicely without cutting and rattling the cages of the purists.


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watch844
09-13-2005, 07:00 PM
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Stude4x4
09-13-2005, 11:25 PM
We're not tunnel visioned we just know what engine is the toughest small block on the planet.
58 Transtar 4x4
63 Avanti R2

studeclunker
09-15-2005, 04:48 AM
Oh sigh... I'm a bit of a purist myself. Still that said... one sometimes just has to make do with what is available. Right now the GMC motor is. I have four Studie V8s that are dead on the property. They aren't going to do me any good in the forseeable future.

So realisticly speaking, can it be done economicly[?]



Lotsa Larks!
K.I.S.S. Keep It Simple Studebaker!
Ron Smith

52hawk
09-15-2005, 09:20 AM
At the SB swap meet in May,the nicest Champ I saw had a SBC in it.No cutting or 'butchering' evident,looked like it came from the factory that way.!!!The guy had spent something near $20k on the truck,so I think he could have had a Stude V-8 if he wanted to.[^]

Home of the Almostahawk

Transtar56
09-15-2005, 11:53 AM
Stude 4x4,just wanted to point out that Studes V-8 is not a "small block"
Thats A Ford,GM,Mopar term used to differentiate between blocks with different size crank journals,for example,a Mopar 360 is a small block,while the 361 was a big block.
Stude only ever built one V-8,it evolved over the years from 232,224,259,289,etc,but basically all the same engine.
The block was recast in mid 62 to become a full flow,modern design,but a Stude V-8 is a Stude V-8.
About putting that 350 into your truck,I say,your truck,your decision.But if your actually thinking about converting back to Stude power sometime in the future,you'd save money and time by having one of your Stude engines re-built.
Chances are once the SBC goes in,it will be there for good.

Stude4x4
09-15-2005, 04:39 PM
Transtar56, I meant small block in cubes. When compared to a 454 (which is a big block) the 289 is considered small. Just an FYI (because I am new to the forum) I've been around a "few" Studebakers.

DEEPNHOCK
09-15-2005, 04:49 PM
If cubes are what you are after, you can get a 'small block' from World performance that has a displacement of 454 cid. Pricey, but it'll grunt, fer sure[|)]
Jeff[8D]


quote:Originally posted by Stude4x4

Transtar56, I meant small block in cubes. When compared to a 454 (which is a big block) the 289 is considered small. Just an FYI (because I am new to the forum) I've been around a "few" Studebakers.


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studeclunker
09-16-2005, 03:00 AM
I've got one thanks. One jimmy has the 350 the other has a 454. The 350 is the candidate right now.

Will the engine mounts and tranny mounts bolt on the Chebby?

Lotsa Larks!
K.I.S.S. Keep It Simple Studebaker!
Ron Smith

gordr
09-17-2005, 02:20 PM
Ron,

The simple answer is that there are no factory brackets that will mate up a GM engine to the Champ frame. Such brackets do exist for the cars, because Stude used the McKinnon 283s in '65-'66. They never built a "McKinnon-ized" Champ, though.

Maybe one of the speed shops has an adaptor kit, but I've never heard of one. I think I'm on pretty safe ground in saying that you will have to personally fabricate all your brackets. If you can cut and weld steel, that's not necessarily a big job, but it means the engine swap won't be a weekend project.

Other items you have to make and/or find: exhaust, driveshaft, radiator and bracket, throttle and transmission linkages, heater and fuel hoses. Some of these may be trivial, others can be surprisingly tricky, especially if you stick closely to your stated intention of not altering the truck to the point that it can't be restored to stock.

I'm not such a purist that I would tell you to avoid an engine swap at any cost, but it's my opinion, that in this case, an engine swap is not necessarily the cheapest, quickest, or easiest way to get your Champ on the road.

I once had a '63 Champ as a daily driver. It had a 259 with a T10 4 speed, and it went like Jack the Bear. I sold it to another local chapter member, who swapped in a Dodge 318 and automatic tranny. He later admitted to me that the truck was slower, and used more fuel (but his girlfriend could drive the automatic).

Gord Richmond, within Weasel range of the Alberta Badlands

studeclunker
09-19-2005, 08:22 PM
Honestly Gord, I'd rather have the 289 rebuilt. It went like a scalded monkey. It's just the motor needs rebuilding and I don't have the $$$. I'm only trying to make do with what I have. Putting money into the GMC seems a waste to me as I don't want it. The Champ is the desired focus.

The motor swap was just a thought to get going. A bad idea it seems...

Lotsa Larks!
K.I.S.S. Keep It Simple Studebaker!
Ron Smith

prager
09-22-2005, 07:52 AM
How about using a Stude 6cyl?? I have a good runner for sale with trans real cheap!! 170 c.i. 3 speed manual. I'm going to pull it next weekend...

DEEPNHOCK
09-22-2005, 08:33 AM
Well Ron, yes and no....
"If' you use the '65/'66 front engine mounts on your 350, the front will bolt on ok (but the fuel pump is going to get 'buried', so make sure it is in pristeen shape).
'If' you use a '65-'66 a/t ( KcKinnon bellhousing), then the rear trans mounts will line up and work.
If your 350 has a T350/T400/700R4 a/t, then you will have to fabricate a rear trans mount crossmember.
You will have to do some driveshaft work (if a GM trans), and your shift linkage will neet to be fabricated (and your PNDLR will turn into a RRND2L.
None of these are insurmountable, and this swap has been done many, many times before (for all sorts or reasons).
Your front springs will thank you for the weight savings.
Your Stude friends will either pat you on the back, or kick you in the butt... So choose your friends wisely.
Hope the info helps.
Jeff[8D]


quote:Originally posted by studeclunker

I've got one thanks. One jimmy has the 350 the other has a 454. The 350 is the candidate right now.

Will the engine mounts and tranny mounts bolt on the Chebby?

Lotsa Larks!
K.I.S.S. Keep It Simple Studebaker!
Ron Smith


DEEPNHOCK at Cox.net
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Roscomacaw
09-22-2005, 02:52 PM
Jeff,
Did you read this whole thread? I ask that because Gord pretty well addressed the situation by saying that no Champ (as in Champ truck) was ever McKinnonized. Consequently, studeclunker would be treading new ground unless someone here could offer specifics as to how it's already been done.
Since the frames of a Stude car and that of the trucks are vastly different, I'd have to point out that some of the points you made are irrelevant to the question at hand.

Curious that you're still trying to define the purist vs. mod flocks. Clunk and I could possibly be friends even if he didn't own one single Studebaker![:0] Imagine that???:D

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1957 Transtar 1/2ton
1960 Larkvertible V8
1958 Provincial wagon
1953 Commander coupe
1957 President 2-dr
1955 President State
1951 Champion Biz cpe
1963 Daytona project FS

DEEPNHOCK
09-22-2005, 03:27 PM
I guess I didn't read it all. Sorry[V]
I wasn't trying to define anything, just point out the high and low points of an engine swap. Sometimes, there's hardware issues, sometimes there's software issues..;)
Hey, We could be friends too.....[:0]
Jeff[8D]



quote:Originally posted by Mr.Biggs

Jeff,
Did you read this whole thread? I ask that because Gord pretty well addressed the situation by saying that no Champ (as in Champ truck) was ever McKinnonized. Consequently, studeclunker would be treading new ground unless someone here could offer specifics as to how it's already been done.
Since the frames of a Stude car and that of the trucks are vastly different, I'd have to point out that some of the points you made are irrelevant to the question at hand.

Curious that you're still trying to define the purist vs. mod flocks. Clunk and I could possibly be friends even if he didn't own one single Studebaker![:0] Imagine that???:D

Miscreant at large.

1957 Transtar 1/2ton
1960 Larkvertible V8
1958 Provincial wagon
1953 Commander coupe
1957 President 2-dr
1955 President State
1951 Champion Biz cpe
1963 Daytona project FS


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Roscomacaw
09-22-2005, 03:43 PM
Just trying to keep things straight, Jeff.;)



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1957 Transtar 1/2ton
1960 Larkvertible V8
1958 Provincial wagon
1953 Commander coupe
1957 President 2-dr
1955 President State
1951 Champion Biz cpe
1963 Daytona project FS

Alan
09-22-2005, 04:34 PM
For Ron.

http://www.rick-n-steve.com/temp/car1.jpg
http://www.rick-n-steve.com/temp/car2.jpg

DEEPNHOCK
09-22-2005, 05:03 PM
Great pic's Alan..
The front mount looks easy enough to fab up...
Do you have any dimensions for it?
Rear mount looks a bit strange, unless it hooks right to the bellhousing somehow.
I can whip you up something if you can get me some dimensions Ron..
Jeff[8D]




quote:Originally posted by Alan

For Ron.

http://www.rick-n-steve.com/temp/car1.jpg
http://www.rick-n-steve.com/temp/car2.jpg



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Alan
09-22-2005, 06:29 PM
Hey Jeff this is AJ from the 62hawk and Hi Per Stude sites. I did the swap in 1980 it is a 1968 Avanti 2 327 that's why the funny starter and road draft tube. I put 250,000 miles on that since, about 2 years ago I removed the front end to clean it up and put in an new engine and trans. I still have the flame cutter templates for both front ans rear mounts. the rear is bolted to the bellhousing on the 55-57 Chevy trans mount position it looks like a boomerang with a gusset but I used all Stude rubber.

whacker
09-22-2005, 08:50 PM
I just happen to have a McKinnon bell housing I no longer need. If you are interested, contact me off line. Otherwise it will go to ebay soon.

studeclunker
09-22-2005, 09:49 PM
Wow! Impressive pictures and work.[:0] They do indeed look like it could work.:) Alan, if you could provide the information to Jeff on those mounts, maybe it could help more than just lil' ol'me. Thanks for the input everyone. I'm still not sure what to do...[:I]

Looks do-able with your pictures Alan.

Jeff, if you could get back with me (when Alan gives you the measurements etc...) on how much the mounts would cost, I would appreciate it. Must be careful with budget etc...

Lotsa Larks!
K.I.S.S. Keep It Simple Studebaker!
Ron Smith

Alan
09-22-2005, 11:11 PM
I would sell you a set black powder coated for $150 front, rear, Stainless steel fastners and urathane mounts. But you can not run the stock fuel pump.

gordr
09-23-2005, 01:13 AM
Cool, Alan!

That fills Ron's original request almost perfectly, in that it make the swap close to a bolt-in job. Which tranny did you use, and was it necessary to cut or fabricate a drive shaft? Also, are the headers required, or could the old "rams' horn" manifolds be used?

I guess the remainder of the exhaust system would still have to be custom-made.

Just out of curiosity, how many hours of fabricating went into making that set of mounts?

It's also cool that you kept your templates for future reference.

Gord Richmond, within Weasel range of the Alberta Badlands

Alan
09-23-2005, 12:13 PM
Gordon, I used a T10 4 O.D. using a Tom Beaty adapter. It takes me about a week to fab a set of mounts for what ever I want to put in a car. Once I have the templates made it only takes a few hours to make mounts. The headers I built myself but you could use the rams horn on the pass. side, on the drivers side you would have to use a front or rear dump because of the steering box. I would stii like to see Ron fix his 259 and put it back in, he still dosn't seem too savy on mechanicals to try a swap of this magnatude the mounts are easy but the Chicken s***ts will kill him.

studegary
09-23-2005, 04:10 PM
Unless I am missing something, I don't see where these mounts designed for an Avanti II frame will be of any use in a Champ with a truck frame.

gordr
09-23-2005, 05:00 PM
Alan,

We are agreed on the "chicken *****". That was kind of the point I tried to make to Ron; that an engine swap is not necessarily the easy way out. Having fabricated brackets eases part of the job, but doesn't alter the fact that none of the accessories/linkages are made to fit the other guy's stuff. Throttle linkage is a good example. People who are comfortable with engine swaps tend to gloss over such things, but they can be daunting for someone doing a swap for the first time, especially if it is one the hotrod marketplace doesn't support.

Ron says he already has the 289 out of the Champ. I think he should simply buy a shop manual, and an engine stand from Harbor Freight. Replace the timing gears, and hone the cylinders for new rings. Plasti-gage the rod and main bearings, and he will probably find that the journals aren't worn enough to use .002 undersize bearing shells. So assemble it with standard bearings. (I'm basing the above on the assumption that the engine has not previously been rebuilt.) I know there are people who post here that will rant and rave that you have to rebore the engine, and balance it, and grind the crank, and line-bore the block, and in general spend several thousand bucks to make the engine letter-perfect. Maybe so, if you are a big commercial shop, and doing that engine for a well-off customer that expects a warranty, but Ron has already indicated he's not keen on spending a mittfull of money on the truck. Freshening that engine with new timing gears, rings, and bearings will be a great learning experience for the few hundred bucks it will cost. And the satisfaction of being able to say, "I did it myself." Priceless.

And an aside to Studegary: yep, you DID miss something.;)
Alan indicated that the 327 came out of a '68 Avanti II. So it IS a Stude engine, kinda-sorta.:D

Gord Richmond, within Weasel range of the Alberta Badlands

JDP
09-23-2005, 07:14 PM
Just bought this 53 street rod with a 383 Chevy stroker installed. The engine pix shows the front mouunt clearly.

http://stude.com/53rod

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N8N
09-23-2005, 07:34 PM
Looks like that uses the real early front-of-the-block mounting holes, do the newer SBCs still have those?

nate

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Alan
09-23-2005, 08:11 PM
Up through 85 yes, when they went to fuel injection they changed to 3 holes insted of 4, I have never played around with the gen 3's so I don't know about the newer ones. That mount is a Hurst Chevy to Stude mount using Ford flathead motor mounts but they have to butcher the Stude mount bracket to put it in.

Mike
09-24-2005, 06:55 AM
The Hurst mount for a Chevy small block into a Stude coupe used '55 to '57 Chevy cushions and formed washers. You only had to cut the Stude brackets if you wanted to use a mechanical fuel pump.
The picture at http://stude.com/53rod shows that cushion and washer under the mount. I can't tell if they used the smaller one on top. That through bolt may be from a flathead Ford!
Does the '53 rod have the Hurst cross member under the bell housing? It used reversed mounts to the bell housing from the same year Chevy.
Mike M.

JDP
09-24-2005, 09:17 AM
I won't be able to tell about the rear mount until I get the car east. The flathead bolt makes some sense, the guy that built the car in the 70's was a older rodder, might have had some old parts laying around.

Studebaker On The Net http://stude.com
64 R2 4 speed Challenger (Plain Wrapper)
63 R2 4 speed GT Hawk

studegary
09-24-2005, 04:11 PM
[quote]Originally posted by gordr


And an aside to Studegary: yep, you DID miss something.;)
Alan indicated that the 327 came out of a '68 Avanti II. So it IS a Stude engine, kinda-sorta.:D

Gord Richmond, within Weasel range of the Alberta Badlands
[

Gordr - I realize that the Avanti II had a Chevy engine on a Studebaker CAR frame. What I questioned was how much these mounts would be of value in mounting the GM engine in a Studebaker TRUCK frame. The initial question referred to a truck model.

gordr
09-24-2005, 04:45 PM
posted by StudeGary:
Gordr - I realize that the Avanti II had a Chevy engine on a Studebaker CAR frame. What I questioned was how much these mounts would be of value in mounting the GM engine in a Studebaker TRUCK frame. The initial question referred to a truck model."

Yes. And the response posted by Alan showed photos of the Avanti II engine installed into a Champ truck frame using brackets he fabricated himself, and a very nice piece of work it was, too. No mention was made of using the Avanti II engine mounts. Alan's brackets attach to the engine mounting bosses on the GM block, and provide an outrigger which allows the use of a Studebaker ruuber cushion into the original mounting holes on the truck frame.

Gord Richmond, within Weasel range of the Alberta Badlands

Alan
09-24-2005, 06:35 PM
I should have made myself clearer, the stock of parts I have laying around I just grab one from this box and one from that box and throw them together not thinking about part numbers or weather they are for a car or truck. The front mount rubbers are off a car PN 533296 and the rears are from a truck PN 674994, but I made my own molds and cast them from urethane now.

studegary
09-24-2005, 07:32 PM
Thanks Gordr - Now it is clear to me. I missed the point that the Avanti II (Chevy) engine was mounted in a truck chassis.

tstclr
09-27-2005, 09:13 PM
Excuse my ignorance and I don't mean to hijack this thread, but.. I have just bought a 63 Lark 2dr sedan. It has a non running 6 cyl auto and I really want V8 power. Is it true there were Canadian built Larks (64-?) that had 283s? What do I need to swap a Chevy small block into my Lark? I'd be happy with either an auto or 4 speed. Are there any websites showing the swap?
Thanks!
Todd

Dan White
09-27-2005, 10:05 PM
Canadian built Larks had 283 GM based engines (pretty much SBC) V8s in 65 and 66, as well as Chevy based I6's. You may find it easier to drop in a Studebaker 259 or 289 V8 in your Lark than doing an engine swap. There are plenty of Stude V8s around. If you are not up to the task you may find the Chevy swap is more than you bargained for.

Dan White
64 R1 GT
64 R2 GT

tstclr
09-27-2005, 10:26 PM
So, would all the later sbc mounts etc fit my 63 Lark? If I were to find a SBC parts Lark, could I not swap all the necessary parts to my 63? I'm in Ontario, and from what I understand , all the Chevy powered Larks were built here so they may be somewhat easy to find.
Thx
Todd

gordr
09-27-2005, 10:28 PM
Todd,

'65 and '66 Studebakers (the entire production of which was in Canada) used either the 283 V8 or 194/230 inline six. These are known as McKinnon engines, as they were made in GM's McKinnon engine plant in Ontario. We don't use the "C" word around here[:p]

The V8 would be a relatively easy swap if you get a set of the FRAME BRACKETS. These bolt to the front crossmember in place of the existing ones, and accept the standard-type Chevy motor mount that was used for lo these many years. If you were to acquire a '65 or '66 V8 auto transmission and a set of those frame brackets, you'd be well on the way. Other considerations include: exhaust pipes, throttle linkage, radiator and hoses, and starter cable.

The above is predicated upon your using a 283 from a Studebaker, or one of similar vintage from a GM vehicle. I'm pretty sure you have to use a special fuel pump because of clearance issues, too.

If you use a 350, I'm not sure if the common type of 350 exhaust manifold will clear the Pitman arm. It's VERY tight with the old "ram's horn" manifolds, as it is.

Now, for what you may not have considered: six-cylinder Studebakers used smaller brakes, and lighter springs than did the V8 cars. Go to V8 power, be it Stude or McKinnon, and you will be definitely under-sprung and under-braked.

The best way to do such a swap, in my opinion, would be to acquire a V8 parts car, either a '65-6 with the McKinnon engine, or a '64-prior with the Stude engine, and swap over engine, front springs, front brakes, and complete rear axle with brakes. The also gets you the V8 tranny and driveshaft, and a multitude of small, but vital parts. In the course of changing front springs, you could rebuild the front suspension, if needed.

Now, he said, putting on his heretic hat[}:)], another option you could consider would be installing a Chevy 4.3 liter V6, backed by a 200 4R transmission. I think you can get repop McKinnon frame brackets from Myers Studebaker, and they should work for the V6. Existing springs should carry that combo OK, but a brake upgrade would be a good idea, regardless. Turner Brakes makes a kit to convert your car to modern-style discs. With the V6 being smaller, you should have some wiggle room to work around the Pitman arm clearance issue. I think this is potentially the easiest Brand X engine swap you can do.

What would I do if it were my car? If I wanted to maintain a reasonable semblance of authenticity, I'd get a '63 or '64 V8 parts car, and swap out all the parts; engine, tranny, springs, rear axle, and brakes. Lot's of work, but all the parts are made to fit one another, which is not the case with an engine swap. If you can get a rusty parts car at the right price, it can also be the cheapest solution by far.

Fixing the original engine would also be an option, but I have to admit to being less than thrilled with the OHV six. I wouldn't arbitrarily toss out a good running one, though.

If I were doing a no-holds-barred modified for ME to drive, I'd give serious consideration to a Toyota or Nissan 4 cylinder, preferably with 5-speed. Would probably beat the Chevy V6 in both performance and economy. Or if I wanted to be REAL evil, maybe a 13B rotary out of a Mazda RX7. Lots of room for that puppy, and there are plenty of rusty, but good running RX7s out there. But I'd be basically killing the resale value of the car. Get to offend both the purists and the rodders that way, though. :D

Gord Richmond, within Weasel range of the Alberta Badlands