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wagone
09-09-2005, 11:34 AM
Ok, guys, I'm back with the Cursed One questions! Please give advice. If you remember I had a nice tow home about 2 1/2 weeks ago as a result of a bad (or likely non-existant) seal on the top of the "shaft" of a new R2 type pump (modified M6902). This missing seal, as you all know, will allow copious amounts of oil to end up as BLUE smoke and also all over the underhood area. Basic question is "what else does it mess up?" I (imho) don't believe (and I MAY be wrong) that it will not harm the AFB as the oil is just going down the throats and right into the engine. But--to continue! I left the damn thing sit in the garage until just the other day when I received another new fuel pump. Took the "missing seal" pump off the car and drained 1 1/2 oz of oil out the supercharger connection opening. Cleaned everything up as best I could (including the intake hose from the s'charger outlet to the carb bonnet), put the new M6902 pump on the car. And started the little devil up. Ran like crap sitting in the driveway--acted like it was running lean and maybe only on seven cylinders (or 6 1/2 cylinders). Didn't like the sound of it and it didn't seem to get any better (which I had hoped it would once the extra oil in the intake and cylinders was burned off). So.........I shut the Cursed One off and opened up the intake to the carb: all full of oil again! Now where the hell did that come from? Only one place possible: the s'charger! So I opened up the intake hose (from air cleaner to s'charger) and lo and behold there was just about 1 1/2 oz of oil in the bottom of the hose, which was of course where the "new" source of oil was coming from. So question is what about the s'charger itself? Will large volumes of oil like this harm the s'charger (as in hydraulic lock--course if that happened I would assume it would be accompanied by a substantial BANG) and can I safely remove the Paxton and turn it upside down and expect the oil to all drain out--or does it need to be disassembled by an expert and repaired? Also can a fuel pump still pump fuel with an ounce and a half of oil on top of the diaphragm? True the oil can move up the tube towards the SN60 but there is a "restriction" of sorts in the fitting on the pump and the oil is going to (it would seem) be somewhat difficult to lift thus reducing the pump's suction efforts(?) Yes, no, I'm crazy? Stated another way will the engine likely stall due to lack of fuel as the pump is trying to "lift" the oil and hence be restricted in pumping fuel??? How can one car suffer from so many problems (I've owned numerous collector cars over the last 25 years and done virtually ALL my own repairs to the tune of about $15,000 in parts before the Avanti and have NEVER had such poor luck as with the Avanti)? Advice, please, and thanks in advance! I'm going to revise this--since the centrifugal supercharger is not positive displacement I gather that hydraulic lock is not an issue, but would it be wise to turn it upside down and attempt to drain the oil out? I imagine there to be oil in the bottom of the unit as oil is everywhere else.
wagone and the Cursed One (Avanti I)

charley norton
09-10-2005, 06:42 AM
You know, none of this makes any since to me. Maybe I'm wrong, but the line from the S.C. to the fuel pump is a pressure line. I was told if I wanted an accurate boost reading that all I had to do is rig a guage up to that line and there it would be. So to me, it would seem that if an "O" ring or gasket was missing in the pump, it would allow pressure to be released into engine and would not be able to suck oil out of the engine.Does that make sence? You know, if I'm right (and I'm probably not right), Then the oil in your S.C. hose to carb. is not coming from that line, it would almost have to be coming from the engine ventilation hose thats hooked onto the topside of the air filter and would be sucked through the S.C. from that side. And there could still be a bunch of oil in your air filter housing and hose from it to the S.C. thats waiting to come through,but it seems it would be dripping on the floor as well(and your air filters would be soaked in oil).
I would also crank the car and remove the oil fill cap while its running to see if there's excess blow by that could of been causing all this to start with (hope not). But even so, it could be a simple thing as an obstruction or blockage in the large vacuum hose on the back of the carb or the fitting on the carb that it hooks onto, or a combination of the fuel pump problem and that. Enough oil blowing around inside the engine would easily clog the filter material in the filler caps and if it couldn't go through the hose to the base of the carb due to the blockage or whatever than all the vented crankcase air would have to be relieving itself through the air filter housing. It's also reasonable to think that if any of this I'm saying could be true, that once the engine is shut off, that the oil thats in the S.C.to carb hose could backflow to the S.C. and go down the line to the fuel pump and fill up the space above the diaphram making you think the oils origin is from there. But hell, what do I know. I'm just guessing like everyone else. At least what I'm telling you are easy things to check. Your serial No. must be either 1986 or 1988 because mine is 1987 and surely our two cars were born at the same time.

Your fellow cursed Avanti owner,
Charley

63 R2 Avanti

chad cassady
09-10-2005, 10:47 AM
Ive got an SN-93 on a 259cid 60 lark. Im having a bit of trouble deciphering your post. Are you saying that your boost reference line from your blower to the fuel pump was full of oil? And you have no 'T' or anything else in that line thats going to a guage, right? On the cleaning of the blower. You can turn it upside-down. Be ready for the trans fluid in it to run out, just dont ever store it in any way but as it would sit in the vehicle. If your boost reference line was full of oil, I find it hard to see that the oil would 'migrate' up the line from the fuel pump into the discharge line of the blower. After it was turned off. And while it was on, we know that the pressure is moving down that line onto the diaphragm in the pump. Unless you had some type of pressure on the diaphragm that was pushing the oil up after it was turned off? If it did move up into the charger it would then drip into the body of the charger, pool up and then be blown into the carb when you run the car. But pool up in the discharge hose? I dunno about that. Is it clean oil? Are you sure that its not trans fluid leaking out of the charger? Maybe if you could take a look and then get back to us we can figure it out, good luck, chad

wagone
09-10-2005, 12:02 PM
Message to Charley and Chad (and interested others): It is definitely engine oil in the supercharger hoses (both of them) and not auto trans fluid (s'charger lubricant to those not "into" blown Studes). But the real interesting thread here mentioned by both Charley and Chad is that they believe (as I did up until a few months or weeks ago) that the line from the s'charger to the top of the fuel pump PRESSURIZES the pump diaphragm! But Ted Harbit has told me that in fact this is a line which puts a partial VACUUM on the top of diaphragm. Thus if the small "seal" in the fuel pump is bad oil will be drawn up to the s'charger discharge and blown into the carb. I believe the theory and operation (as very briefly stated by Ted) is that the air flow out of the s'charger on its way to the carb acts to create a partial vacuum (not unlike a venturi effect) at the small opening leading to the fuel pump and thus this vacuum felt on top of the diaphragm acts to relieve resistance on the diaphragm top when the pump is in the suction half of its stroke thus delivering more fuel to the carb. Whether this makes total sense I'm not sure but the simple fact is that while the engine was running (on my way to meet fellow Stude people on a Sunday almost three weeks ago) the engine sucked a quart of oil out of the crankcase and burned much of it and puked the rest all over the engine. And it VERY much seems as though this oil came up the small hose (and pipe) from the fuel pump to the s'charger discharge and from there into the carb with the air flow. A bunch of this oil (probably when the engine quit) drained back through the s'charger and out the s'charger intake (from the air filter) and pooled at a low spot in the intake hose. I'd like to believe that very little oil remains in the s'charger itself--but I'm not sure of this. Any other thoughts will be appreciated. I'm running short of patience with this CRITTER. Thanks.
wagone and cursed Avanti I

charley norton
09-10-2005, 09:24 PM
I really learn something every time I get on with you guys. But I can tell you Bill, There's a lot of people out there that think that small line blows. But what you say makes sence and Ted Harbit otta know. I think the guy that built my S.C. told me I could put the line to a boost guage from there. I hope he at least knew more about the building part!!

63 R2 Avanti

Chicken Hawk
09-10-2005, 09:56 PM
Let me clarify a small part of what I said about the hose from the supercharger to the fuel pump. The supercharger does add pressure to the pump. Without this line the fuel pressure from the pump would be overcome by the supercharger pressure at higher rpm forcing air into the carb (through the bonnet) so the fuel would not flow into the carb.

In other words if the supercharger is putting out 5 pounds and the fuel pump is putting out 5 pounds the pressure going into the carb would negate the 5 pounds the pump is trying to put into the carb. If you take off hard (like in racing), the car would probably go fine until about 4000 rpm or so when these two opposing forces collide and when the fuel runs out in the bowls, the engine quits pulling. Hope that makes sense.

However, when you are just cruising, say at 60 mph there, is no pressure in the manifold and when you let off the accelerator the vacuum in the manifold goes way up. These are times when the oil could be forced up the hose from the fuel pump to the supercharger.

Maybe to better explain it is that the top of the diaphram in the pump can creat pressure on the top side of the diaphram if there were no vent hole. The R 2 pumps do not have a vent hole but the line from the supercharger acts as the vent would but at the same time lets this line from the supercharger add pressure to the pump side when you rev it up.

I don't know the answer to Wagon's problem. I have not heard of a problem as complicated as his seems to be and have been trying to come up with ideas or reasons as to why he is having these problems.

So far it seems none of us has been able to find what the cause is or a cure.

Ted

Chicken Hawk
09-10-2005, 10:00 PM
One more clarification: Yes, you can put a "T" in the pressure line from the supercharger to the fuel pump and will register what the supercharger is putting out which will usually be about two pounds more than what is in the manifold under full throttle. So if the gauge at the "T" says the supercharger is putting out 5 pounds at 5000 rpm under full throttle (so the throttle plates are both wide open), a gauge in the manifold would probably read about 3 pounds.

Ted

11SecAvanti
09-10-2005, 10:25 PM
Ok, if the large hose from the breather to blower has oil in it my opinion is this oil is being pulled from the crankcase by the tube and hose that connect to it for crankcase ventilation. The blower is sucking the oil from the crankcase. The crankcase itself is suffering from excessive piston blowby. The oil is thus traveling through the blower out the discharge hose and into the carb and engine. Not good. Chances are the blower itself has collected oil and has a pool of oil in the rear cover section. The line to the fuel pump from the blower is a pressure line. Not a vacumn line. The boost pressure adds pressure to the fuel pump diaphram to increase fuel pressure tracking under boost conditons. The blower is pushing oil down that tube or hose and onto the fuel pump diaphram.

Plan 1: Remove the hose from the crankcase to the R-2 air filter container and let it "float." Clean all the oil out of the large inlet hose. Remove the blower and remove the rear scroll cover for the impeller and clean the pool of oil in the rear of the blower. Remove the oil from the blower hose to the carb. Once all these areas are dry and free from oil, reassemble everything but leave the hose from the crankcase vent tube off or "free floating." Hopefully this will stop the oil problem. The real problem is IMHO the crankcase blowby which is a piston ring to cylinder wall sealing problem. I have known of fuel pump failure that can pump fuel into the engine but you don't have that condition. Is it possible for crankcase blow by to push out of the fuel pump to blower tube??? I think so because the crankcase pressure can push it into the large crankcase vent hose that feeds into the blower filter inlet. Soo, both lines could be a source for the oil. What I am saying is: this sounds like crankcase blow-by oil.
As for running terrible, the engine plugs are probley "wet" from all the oiling issues and may have to be remove and replaced. Plan 2: Now another approach would be to remove the blower belts. Remove the hose to the carb. Replace the plugs or hopefully get the engine running good without the blower and once that part is stable and functioning fine, then deal with the cleaning of the hoses and blower, etc. Hope this helps.

Start and Stage Your Studebakers

charley norton
09-12-2005, 12:07 PM
It seems an easy way to see if you got blow by would be to simply take off one of the filler caps while the engine is running and give it some revs. If its got blow by, it should blow. But these engines must have had some amount of blow by from the factory or they wouldn't have put so many ways for it to vent. Mine has two filtered oil fill caps, a fairly large crankcase vent to the air breather and the large vacuum hose to the base of the carb. The one to the carb-: Does it have a sort of pcv on it? I had read in the turning wheels something about that fitting on the base of the carb being a pcv valve. I've never taken it off to see. But I still say its something plugged somewhere if it's not some rings. The last time I had my S.C. to carb hose off was about 2 months ago. I remember now that I had oil residue in the hose too. It wasn't much and for some reason, I wasn't that worried about it (guess I had other stuff on my mind).Since then ,I've changed the fuel pump so I may have Fixed it inevertantly. But with the tight tolerances in the super chager, would it hurt it to be having that oil go through it?
Charley

63 R2 Avanti

bige
09-13-2005, 08:53 PM
Check the PCV valve. If it is bad you are pressurizing the crankcase under boost. The stock valve is simply a needle and seat that works only one way. I added a second one way valve to make sure. I also took a piece of filter material from the pcv filter that's inside older GM cars, FB 59 is the AC number for the whole piece but I think you can buy the filter material separately, and stuffed it into the hose that comes from the crankcase tube to the air cleaner. It eliminated most of the oily residue sucked into the air cleaner.

R2 R5388

Mike
09-14-2005, 03:18 PM
On the R1 & R2 engines, air for the crankcase ventilation system is supposed to go in the breathers on the valve covers. They are at atmospheric pressure. By the way, there are only two holes, about 3/16" diameter, in each. They are visable if you look up inside. The spring clip that retains them may be turned so it covers the holes. It's supposed to be held in the right position by two little ribs.
Air and blow by is pulled out of the crankcase stack to the slightly low pressure air cleaner; or through the PCV check valve to the carb base, where there is vacuum under most conditions.
The air circulation inside the engine is supposed to aid oil return to the crankcase.
Mike M.

waterman63
02-23-2006, 01:31 PM
quote:Originally posted by charley norton

It seems an easy way to see if you got blow by would be to simply take off one of the filler caps while the engine is running and give it some revs. If its got blow by, it should blow. But these engines must have had some amount of blow by from the factory or they wouldn't have put so many ways for it to vent. Mine has two filtered oil fill caps, a fairly large crankcase vent to the air breather and the large vacuum hose to the base of the carb. The one to the carb-: Does it have a sort of pcv on it? I had read in the turning wheels something about that fitting on the base of the carb being a pcv valve. I've never taken it off to see. But I still say its something plugged somewhere if it's not some rings. The last time I had my S.C. to carb hose off was about 2 months ago. I remember now that I had oil residue in the hose too. It wasn't much and for some reason, I wasn't that worried about it (guess I had other stuff on my mind).Since then ,I've changed the fuel pump so I may have Fixed it inevertantly. But with the tight tolerances in the super chager, would it hurt it to be having that oil go through it?
Charley

63 R2 Avanti

KOOL R2
03-11-2006, 12:17 PM
I have been loking through some of the previous posts and found this one.
I hope you bought the Carter MC 6902 from a Studebaker dealer and it is modified for the R2. If it is off the shelf from a local parts store the arm is probably wrong and there will be no fitting on the top of the pump dome.
Have you hooked up the "new" fuel pump properly? The pressure line from the Paxton goes to the top of the pump dome. This is a steel 1/4" line. There is also a 5/16 steel line that goes from the the pump to the carb and there is a return line 1/4" (this has a small restrictor in it) this goes back to the fuel tank.
I am wondering if your problem is that you are attatching the return line fitting to the Supercharger pressure hose thus pumping small amounts of fuel into the Paxton. It may look like oil but it probably is gas.

Just a thought

Peter Sant
KOOL R2

wagone
03-11-2006, 06:08 PM
Peter: Thanks for your kind response to this old thread. No, in answer to your question, this unit is plumbed correctly. The M6902 pump came from Ted Harbit and he was kind enough to take it back and replace with another M6902. I'm assuming that the first pump Ted sold me had the seal on the top of the diaphragm shaft installed incorrectly, although Ted has never gotten back to me, and the s'charger was definitely full of about two ounces of engine oil. At the time I was also fighting foreign matter in the fuel tank.....which turned out to be the paper seal from a can of some kind of gas additive (I don't want to delve too deeply into the intelligence of the former owner..but then that is still another issue). This car is FINALLY getting into some semblence of the condition it was supposed to be in when I bought it. And it should be a blast to drive once the weather improves....without having to worry about why it suddenly dies for no apparent reason. Now all I have left to worry about are twisting off one of the flanged axle shafts or the wonderful original Prestolite alternator quiting on me in the dead of nowhere. Thanks again and I hope our Canadian friend is doing well.:D:D

wagone and the convalescent Avanti I

whoops, just reread this post and realized I said "flanged" axles above when I meant to say tapered----sorry 'bout that.

Roscomacaw
03-12-2006, 02:58 PM
I've had very litte experience with supercharged Studes. I DID have a recent encounter with one that exhibited this very same problem. This was in an R2 Avanti that purportedly had had recent "engine workl" done to it. What the cause was was a busted piston.
I drove the car about 40 miles with the broken piston (yes, we/I knew it had problems when I set out in it - filling the supercharger hoses and breather with oil - but it DID run and that was the easiest way to get it where it had to go. We just had no idea as to what specifically was wrong inside the engine) and can tell you that it pulled VERY strong and made no odd noises whatsoever. by the end of my short trip (taking it to my engine guy's shop) it was fouling the #8 plug and didn't want to run well at low RPMs, but it made it the 40 miles in this condition.[}:)]

Miscreant at large.

1957 Transtar 1/2ton
1960 Larkvertible V8
1958 Provincial wagon
1953 Commander coupe
1957 President 2-dr
1955 President State
1951 Champion Biz cpe
1963 Daytona project FS

wagone
03-13-2006, 12:01 PM
Some of the frequent readers/responders on this forum may recall that fairly recently I've stated that this R2 is still using oil (burning) at a 500 mile/quart rate. Well the good news (I think...I'll know more when spring gets here) is that things may be impoving. Right now my limited winter driving suggests that the oil mileage may currently be on the order of 800-900 miles per quart. Perhaps the ring seal is improving or......it might be that the winter drive to the new digs prompted me to put in 10W30 oil and some people feel that a heavy weight oil may not drain back fast enough and hence could be going down the guides (I had 20W-50 in the crankcase for a time). I certainly don't have a broken/holed piston but broken rings on a newly bored engine is a possibility if the shop that did my engine didn't check the end gap. This shop is REPUTABLE.....whatever that means, but we can all make mistakes. The bottom line (in a sense) is that this is a great forum and thanks to all who try and offer help and encouragement to the rest of us. Hey Mr Biggs, hope you haven't damaged that cylinder beyond repair.

wagone and the convalescent Avanti

Roscomacaw
03-15-2006, 09:42 PM
No, actualy, the car is back on the road and running fine now.;)

Miscreant at large.

1957 Transtar 1/2ton
1960 Larkvertible V8
1958 Provincial wagon
1953 Commander coupe
1957 President 2-dr
1955 President State
1951 Champion Biz cpe
1963 Daytona project FS