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Dan White
09-03-2005, 08:21 PM
I am making a new set of wires for my Hawk. Before I started I made a diagram of the wire order on the distributor and am in the process of putting things back together. I happened to think that I had one of those Sun Electric Tune Up cards I got at a swap meet a few years ago. Much to my surprise, although the firing order matched my diagram, the clamp location and position of the distributor from the front of the engine on the card does not match (it is off about a quarter turn clockwise)! (My brother has my Shop Manual so I do not have it handy) Anyone ever use one of those cards or know why they would be different?



Dan White
64 R1 GT
64 R2 GT

N8N
09-03-2005, 10:54 PM
If the distributor was ever removed, it may have been installed "wrong" and rather than R&R it whoever did it may have just decided to rotate the plug wires on the dist. cap.

I believe the "factory" location should have the vacuum advance pointing pretty much straight to the pass. side and the no. 1 wire pointing forward.

nate

--
55 Commander Starlight
62 Daytona hardtop
http://home.comcast.net/~njnagel

Dan White
09-03-2005, 11:04 PM
Nate:

You may be correct. I am sure the distributor has been taken out. It is supposed to be a dual point but it is not. However, since the Stude distributor has a spade that slides into the oil pump slot how could it be off by roughly a 1/4 turn? If it was a gear type I could see how this might happen but?

Dan White
64 R1 GT
64 R2 GT

Dwain G.
09-04-2005, 12:42 AM
Firing order, with clip locations shown:
http://home.comcast.net/~jdwain/Firing.order.jpg

Dwain G.

GTtim
09-04-2005, 01:15 PM
Dan,
The gear on the distributor drives the oil pump via the shaft with the spade end. The gear could be dropped in in any old position and the oil pump would just follow. Then the wires would have to be changed to match the rotor position and then you know why it was the way it was. Does that make sense?
Tim K.

Dan White
09-04-2005, 01:24 PM
Yep, got it. I had it backwards, dizzy to oil pump not oil pump to dizzy.

Thanks

Dan White
64 R1 GT
64 R2 GT

studegary
09-04-2005, 06:07 PM
Not just for Dan, but I hope that you folks with Studebaker V8s know that there are new custom made spark plug wire sets for your engines. The wire sets are manufactured by a Studebaker nut that also owns a company that makes wire sets for NASCAR and other racers. The sets are not sold directly by him/his company, but are sold by a couple of vendors, including JDP that posts here. The last that I knew, the price was $25 plus $5 UPS.

Dan White
09-04-2005, 07:15 PM
Wish I had known!!!!

Dan White
64 R1 GT
64 R2 GT

PalmerGA
09-04-2005, 07:57 PM
quote:Originally posted by studegary

Not just for Dan, but I hope that you folks with Studebaker V8s know that there are new custom made spark plug wire sets for your engines. The wire sets are manufactured by a Studebaker nut that also owns a company that makes wire sets for NASCAR and other racers. The sets are not sold directly by him/his company, but are sold by a couple of vendors, including JDP that posts here. The last that I knew, the price was $25 plus $5 UPS.
What a coincidence (but not suprising) that this topic is front and center in the Tech Talk Forum. I happen to have a question about plug wires. As many of you have helped walk me through some recent upgrades I have made to my 63 Daytona (289 c.i.) I'm sure you can help me now as well.

I installed my new Edelbrock 1403 carb and had a mechanic friend set the timing, dwell, and install a Pertronix electronic ignition and Flamethrower coil. I got the car back Friday and she really wants to run, but is stumbling a bit. My friend said I may need new plug wires (the "standard" set that is in it are about 5 years old).

The guy at my local Advance Auto store says I need special wires, made for electronic ignitions, instead of the standard type that I have now. [u]Questions one</u>: Is this so and can someone please provide some details as to what kind of wires I need/source? The AA guy didn't have any in stock to fit my car. [u]Question one-B</u>: Could this really be the source of the stumbling/skipping of the engine?

I'm also a little skeptical about the connection of the new ignition to the new coil. [u]Question two</u>: I'm really going to show my ignorance here, but is the little resistor-looking thing that's mounted to the coil bracket supposed to be connected to the negative post on the coil?

Thanks for your help, in advance.

'63 Daytona Convertible

Dan White
09-04-2005, 08:57 PM
I assume you are referring to the condensor, little metal can with a wire sticking out, it goes to the + side. However, if you are referring to the balast resistor, you probably do not need one for the electronic ignition, butit also connects to the + side.



Dan White
64 R1 GT
64 R2 GT

studegary
09-05-2005, 04:34 PM
For those with 1963-1964 models - the correct secondary (spark plug) wires are maroon in color. It will be near to impossible to find the correct wires available in sets. The guy/company that makes the wire sets for Studebakers can supply the maroon wires if someone is willing to buy the large coil of maroon wire. Most people use black.

Sonny
09-05-2005, 06:28 PM
quote:Originally posted by PalmerGA


quote:Originally posted by studegary

Not just for Dan, but I hope that you folks with Studebaker V8s know that there are new custom made spark plug wire sets for your engines. The wire sets are manufactured by a Studebaker nut that also owns a company that makes wire sets for NASCAR and other racers. The sets are not sold directly by him/his company, but are sold by a couple of vendors, including JDP that posts here. The last that I knew, the price was $25 plus $5 UPS.
What a coincidence (but not suprising) that this topic is front and center in the Tech Talk Forum. I happen to have a question about plug wires. As many of you have helped walk me through some recent upgrades I have made to my 63 Daytona (289 c.i.) I'm sure you can help me now as well.

I installed my new Edelbrock 1403 carb and had a mechanic friend set the timing, dwell, and install a Pertronix electronic ignition and Flamethrower coil. I got the car back Friday and she really wants to run, but is stumbling a bit. My friend said I may need new plug wires (the "standard" set that is in it are about 5 years old).

The guy at my local Advance Auto store says I need special wires, made for electronic ignitions, instead of the standard type that I have now. [u]Questions one</u>: Is this so and can someone please provide some details as to what kind of wires I need/source? The AA guy didn't have any in stock to fit my car. [u]Question one-B</u>: Could this really be the source of the stumbling/skipping of the engine?

I'm also a little skeptical about the connection of the new ignition to the new coil. [u]Question two</u>: I'm really going to show my ignorance here, but is the little resistor-looking thing that's mounted to the coil bracket supposed to be connected to the negative post on the coil?

Thanks for your help, in advance.

'63 Daytona Convertible


Hey Jim,

Glad to hear that you got that carb. on. One thing for reference, you can't set the dwell with the Pertronix unit in there. Set the distributor up exactly by the directions in the installation sheet, (you're looking for a specific gap). So, if he tried to set the dwell, that may be the first problem. The Pertronix is just a triggering unit.

You can use any wire set that you want, basically they're all the same nowadays, but there's two varieties. There is the "solid wire core" style, (just as described, solid wire tip to tip, bad for radio interference), and the "carbon wire/resistor" style. Just because they tend to reduce radio noise, I would go for the electronic ignition style wires. There is also the issue of size, and usually 8 MM is the "standard" choice. Heavier is not always better, unless you're running a nitro fuel dragster. Get the wires right from AA.

Unless you buy them from a Stude vendor and they're already the right length with the ends already installed, you'll have to buy a set that requires you to cut them to length and affix the end that goes into the distributor, (a universal set).

Yes, wires can be a cause for stumbling/skipping, but it could be a couple of different things. When was the last time it had new spark plugs? After all of the work you've done, check it over real good for vacuum leaks, be sure the curb idle fuel mixture setting is right and check that timing again. You can safely increase the timing to at least 8 degrees BTDC, from the factory setting of 4 BTDC, try that. Check that the vacuum advance is still working correctly, (use a vacuum pump to watch the advance actually move the plate in the distributor). Also, a stumble can be a weak/inop accelerator pump, but doubtful in your

N8N
09-05-2005, 07:10 PM
Gary, I believe those maroon wires may have been used earlier. I took a set off my (early) '62 Lark when I got it; with 24K miles it is not hard to imagine they were original. I gave one to Brian Scott in case he ever decides to go nuts...

nate

--
55 Commander Starlight
62 Daytona hardtop
http://home.comcast.net/~njnagel

PalmerGA
09-05-2005, 08:36 PM
quote:Originally posted by SonnyHey Jim,

Glad to hear that you got that carb. on. One thing for reference, you can't set the dwell with the Pertronix unit in there. Set the distributor up exactly by the directions in the installation sheet, (you're looking for a specific gap). So, if he tried to set the dwell, that may be the first problem. The Pertronix is just a triggering unit.

You can use any wire set that you want, basically they're all the same nowadays, but there's two varieties. There is the "solid wire core" style, (just as described, solid wire tip to tip, bad for radio interference), and the "carbon wire/resistor" style. Just because they tend to reduce radio noise, I would go for the electronic ignition style wires. There is also the issue of size, and usually 8 MM is the "standard" choice. Heavier is not always better, unless you're running a nitro fuel dragster. Get the wires right from AA.

Unless you buy them from a Stude vendor and they're already the right length with the ends already installed, you'll have to buy a set that requires you to cut them to length and affix the end that goes into the distributor, (a universal set).

Yes, wires can be a cause for stumbling/skipping, but it could be a couple of different things. When was the last time it had new spark plugs? After all of the work you've done, check it over real good for vacuum leaks, be sure the curb idle fuel mixture setting is right and check that timing again. You can safely increase the timing to at least 8 degrees BTDC, from the factory setting of 4 BTDC, try that. Check that the vacuum advance is still working correctly, (use a vacuum pump to watch the advance actually move the plate in the distributor). Also, a stumble can be a weak/inop accelerator pump, but doubtful in your case. How does the car start when cold and hot?

As far as the little resistor thing, I think someone else got that one for ya.

Sonny
http://RacingStudebakers.com
Hey Sonny,
I'll be picking up a set of the 8mm universal Accel wires tomorrow. I'll have to ask my friend if he set the dwell before installing the elec. ignition. The engine cranks right up hot or cold, just rough idling and (of course) the stumbling upon acceleration.

I'll let you know how I make out. Thanks a bunch, as always, to all.

'63 Daytona Convertible

Sonny
09-05-2005, 11:26 PM
quote:Originally posted by PalmerGA
Hey Sonny,
I'll be picking up a set of the 8mm universal Accel wires tomorrow. I'll have to ask my friend if he set the dwell before installing the elec. ignition. The engine cranks right up hot or cold, just rough idling and (of course) the stumbling upon acceleration.

I'll let you know how I make out. Thanks a bunch, as always, to all.

'63 Daytona Convertible


Hey again Jim,

Yep, the Accel wires will work just fine. One word on the dwell, it's set dynamically, (while the engine is turned over/running), meaning that mebbe after he installed the Pertronix unit, he THEN tried to set the dwell. After you install the Pertronix unit according to it's installation sheet it controls the dwell, never needs to be reset again.

Tell ya what, in this order, slap those wires on, check that vacuum advance out carefully, make sure it's working properly, then set the timing at 8 degrees BTDC and the curb idle mixture as per the service manual. When ever you advance or retard the timing it will effect the idle up and down, so it will always need to be reset. Then road test the car, put it under various loads, (hard throttle bursts at cruise, go up a hill if ya can, etc.), if you get any pinging, reset the timing like we've talked about previously.

Thanks for keeping us updated.

Sonny
http://RacingStudebakers.com

studegary
09-06-2005, 03:55 PM
[quote]Originally posted by N8N

Gary, I believe those maroon wires may have been used earlier. I took a set off my (early) '62 Lark when I got it; with 24K miles it is not hard to imagine they were original. I gave one to Brian Scott in case he ever decides to go nuts...


Nate/N8N - You may be correct. Since the topic was a 1964, I figured that '63-'64 covered it. Of the more than 50 Studebakers that I have owned, there have been many '63s and '64s, but nary a 1962. I have worked on '62s that belonged to others, but I doubt that any of them had the original wires. I think this wire color issue was discussed in Turning Wheels a number of years ago, but I do not remember about 1962 models. You have to be carefull about what you see in 1962 and earlier models, because what the dealer had in stock for replacements by late 1962 was maroon. I am not saying that you are incorrect about 1962, just that I don't have any first hand knowledge. Maybe Bob P. knows the answer to this and will chime in.

PalmerGA
09-06-2005, 06:56 PM
quote:Originally posted by Sonny
Hey again Jim,

Yep, the Accel wires will work just fine. One word on the dwell, it's set dynamically, (while the engine is turned over/running), meaning that mebbe after he installed the Pertronix unit, he THEN tried to set the dwell. After you install the Pertronix unit according to it's installation sheet it controls the dwell, never needs to be reset again.

Tell ya what, in this order, slap those wires on, check that vacuum advance out carefully, make sure it's working properly, then set the timing at 8 degrees BTDC and the curb idle mixture as per the service manual. When ever you advance or retard the timing it will effect the idle up and down, so it will always need to be reset. Then road test the car, put it under various loads, (hard throttle bursts at cruise, go up a hill if ya can, etc.), if you get any pinging, reset the timing like we've talked about previously.

Thanks for keeping us updated.

Sonny
http://RacingStudebakers.com
Hey y'all! First of all, let me apologize to Dan White for barging into his thread. The topic was right on the money for my issues and I didn't realize it would be a lengthy discussion. I'll gladly start a new thread if you'd like me to.

In the mean time, here's an update: I got my new 8mm Accel wires from Advance Auto and popped them in when I got home from work. I also disconnected the resistor (I'll call it a resistor - still don't know what it is for sure) from the coil, as Dan White suggested, and cranked it up. She fired right off and is MUCH smoother idling than it was. I let it warm up to running temperature, shut it off, and cranked it again several times. She still fired right up and ran almost as smoothly as she should be. Thanks much to Sonny and Dan, and others who chipped in their advice. You guys are great. Oh and by the way, Sonny, my friend did put new plugs, distributer cap, and rotor in when he installed the Pertonix.

That's the good news. The bad news is, I drove it down the street to see if my mechanic buddy was at his shop (he wasn't) and it stumbled and skipped all the way there and back. I was hoping to ask my friend if he set the dwell with the points in, as Sonny suggested, or after the Pertronix ignition was installed.

Taxing my memory to remember when my everyday vehicle was a 63 Daytona Hardtop (we're talking 30+ years ago), it really feels like the timing is off but I'm not going to mess with it. That was what I paid my buddy to do. (Y'all may be wondering about the skill level of my buddy by now, but he has 3 late 60s & early 70s Super Sports that run like beasts - he knows cars, but did read my manual before working on my car. He'll make it good.) He was concerned that there might be trash in the fuel tank, causing a problem. I put fresh gas in it before I brought it to him. I plan to drop the tank eventually and make sure it's in good shape. That's another topic though.

Anyway, that's where I'm at now. She's getting there, thanks to you guys. I'll let you know what's up after I get hold of my buddy. Thanks again.

'63 Daytona Convertible

Sonny
09-06-2005, 07:25 PM
That's GREAT news Jim! You're very welcome. Just glad to hear she's doin' better and your buddy is gonna get 'er squared away. Sounds like he's on top of knowing how to handle old cars. Sometimes it just takes a bit of time and patience to get 'em purring, but I'm sure that you will. Dropping that tank and cleaning out the fuel system sounds like a good idea too. I've found that the fuel system has to be very clean for the Edelbrocks, they don't tolerate gasoline in the dirt line very well. ;)[:o)]

Sonny
http://RacingStudebakers.com

PalmerGA
09-08-2005, 06:59 PM
Greetings all,

Still haven't got back with my mechanic buddy, but I did do one more minor "adjustment" to my 63. Remember that condenser-looking thing on my coil bracket? First it was hooked up to the negative post on the coil so, at the advice of some here, I disconnected it entirely. Since it made no apparent difference in the way the engine ran (still kind of rough) I decided to (forgive me...) read the instructions that came with the Pertronix ignition. According to Pertronix, the "ballast resistor" should be connected to the positive coil post, with OR without the new electronic ignition. So, I conected it to the pos post, hoping it might make some difference. It didn't.

So here's my question: Should I be concerned? Is it possible that the ballast resistor is shot, and might it be worth it to get another one and hook it up? Lastly, if this was hooked up incorrectly at the time my buddy started working on my car (which it was - no doubt), should he start a square one with a fresh ballast?

What say ye, oh gurus of the Studebaker world? Thanks much.

Jim's pride....
1963 Daytona Convertible

Dan White
09-08-2005, 07:55 PM
First measure the resistance between the primary connections on your coil (the ones with the screw terminals). If it measures much less than 3 ohms you need the ballast resistor, if it measures 3 ohms or more you do not need the resistor. If you need it measure the resistance of the ballast resistor, it should measure about 3 ohms, and it is probably fine.

However, from what Petronix told me with the electronic ignition you should not need a ballast resistor, especially if you are using their Flame thrower coil.

From your previous post it was not clear if you were referring to the ballast resistor or condensor? The condesor is the small metal can with one wire coming out of the center, kind of like a fire cracker looking thing. The ballast resistor has a wire in and a wire out, you may be able to see the windings of the resistor inside depending upon which kind you have.

Dan White
64 R1 GT
64 R2 GT

PalmerGA
09-08-2005, 09:55 PM
quote:Originally posted by Dan White

First measure the resistance between the primary connections on your coil (the ones with the screw terminals). If it measures much less than 3 ohms you need the ballast resistor, if it measures 3 ohms or more you do not need the resistor. If you need it measure the resistance of the ballast resistor, it should measure about 3 ohms, and it is probably fine.Hey Dan. You are assuming that I have an ohm-meter, which I do not. But thanks for the info. Perhaps my friend the mechanic has one.


quote:However, from what Petronix told me with the electronic ignition you should not need a ballast resistor, especially if you are using their Flame thrower coil.I do have a Flame Thrower installed as well.


quote:From your previous post it was not clear if you were referring to the ballast resistor or condensor? The condesor is the small metal can with one wire coming out of the center, kind of like a fire cracker looking thing. The ballast resistor has a wire in and a wire out, you may be able to see the windings of the resistor inside depending upon which kind you have.I know there was a condenser inside the distributor, next to the points, but that has been removed. What I have mounted to the outside of the coil bracket, is a "fire craker looking thing"... a little can with a single wire coming out of it. I guess it is NOT a ballast resistor, but what the hell is it and what is it's function? And do I need it now?

Thanks for the help, but I'm still confused.:(

Jim's pride....
1963 Daytona Convertible

Dan White
09-08-2005, 10:04 PM
You do not need a condensor with the Pertonix unit, so you can scrap the firecracker from the set up. However, you really do need to check see if you need the ballast resistor. You can pick up a cheapo digital volt meter at Radio Shack, Home Depot, or even Harbor Freight. There should have been a resistor hooked up to your orginal "points/condensor" distributor setup.

Dan White
64 R1 GT
64 R2 GT

PalmerGA
09-09-2005, 02:03 PM
quote:Originally posted by Dan White

You do not need a condensor with the Pertonix unit, so you can scrap the firecracker from the set up. However, you really do need to check see if you need the ballast resistor. You can pick up a cheapo digital volt meter at Radio Shack, Home Depot, or even Harbor Freight. There should have been a resistor hooked up to your orginal "points/condensor" distributor setup.Gotcha Dan. The condensor is GONE. I will have my mechanic friend check the ohms to see if the ballast is needed. This is more work than I had expected... but with your (y'alls) help, I'll get it right eventually. Thanks.

Jim's pride....
1963 Daytona Convertible

Roscomacaw
09-09-2005, 03:29 PM
I confess, I'm just now reading this topic.[xx(] That resistor/firecracker/condensor thingy mounted to the coil bracket is/was a radio suppression condensor. It was put there to suppress point noise from bothering the radio. It's NOT essential to the engine's performance in any way.
From '60 thru '64, Studebaker used a special resistance wire to feed the coil. This eliminated the need for a seperate ignition resistor. The wire I'm talking about is pink in color and it's resistance is very low (1.8 ohms)but so is the resistance of the seperate resistors used from '56 thru '59.:D

Miscreant at large.

1957 Transtar 1/2ton
1960 Larkvertible V8
1958 Provincial wagon
1953 Commander coupe
1957 President 2-dr
1955 President State
1951 Champion Biz cpe
1963 Daytona project FS

PalmerGA
09-09-2005, 05:15 PM
Thanks Mr. Biggs. I just got back from my mechanic buddy's place and guess what? I asked him about that and he said "Oh that's just a radio static suppressor... it has no effect on what we're dealing with". Ha! How 'bout that.

Anyway, he unplugged the vacuum advance hose from the carb and said "Let's run her down the street". We did, and what a difference! Still a tad rough but 100% better than it was. We went back to his shop and he threw a timing light on it and retarded the spark "about 6-8 degrees", according to his eyeball. (Here's to you Sonny - you were right on the money!) We ran it down the street again and she moved out strong and smooth. YEEEE-HAAAWWWW!

He told me to drive a while and see how it does, and if I think it needs it he'll get the right tool out and set it exactly right. I gotta say... it runs as good now as it ever has (for me).

Thanks to all you good folks for all your help. Next project - the brake system (it sure wants to go now, but it doesn't want to stop very well... scarry).

Jim's pride....
1963 Daytona Convertible

Roscomacaw
09-09-2005, 06:45 PM
Great NEWS!:D

Miscreant at large.

1957 Transtar 1/2ton
1960 Larkvertible V8
1958 Provincial wagon
1953 Commander coupe
1957 President 2-dr
1955 President State
1951 Champion Biz cpe
1963 Daytona project FS