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wagone
08-22-2005, 08:52 AM
I decided to take a little road trip with the Avanti yesterday--first one of the Summer. The local Stude club had a get together about 140 miles from home. I've had continuing fuel deliver issues with this vehicle for SOME time and therefore no time behind the wheel. However, I THOUGHT I had them solved (new M6902 pump, rebuilt AFB, new return line, cleared all three lines with compressed air, new filter--all set to go, or so I thought). This is an R2, by the way. First 1 1/2 hours into the trip the engine ran fine and then gradually began to lose power on hills and engine wouldn't exceed 3500 rpm. Checked clear plastic fuel line filter and it was virtually EMPTY of fuel (also no trash in the filter--never has been any crud collecting in the filter). So here I am by this time 105-110 miles from home and GOT THAT BAD FEELING! Turned around and headed for home hoping I could nurse it back. Power issue continued to worsen and soon was down to about 45 mph max and then the CURSED Avanti just died. So...opened hood and received a major shock. Oil everywhere under the hood (well, almost everywhere). The fuel pump had expired and was sucking oil and sending it to the carb. What oill didn't go through the engine the carb was puking out the flapper valve on the supercharger inlet to the carb. Also oil on the cross member below the fuel pump(?). Oil level down a QUART. End of story (wish it were a FABLE)--some major cash outlay to be flat bedded 85 miles home; never had to do that before and I'm in my 60s. What the H*ll caused that new fuel pump to crash--and I'd never heard that pumps would pull oil from the crankcase like that. Could a blockage in the tank cause a pump to expire in this fashion? The tank is NOT (thankfully, as there is about 10-12 gallons in the tank) draining into the engine sump--which could indicate a blockage, but would a blocked fuel line or tank cause the pump diaphgram to rupture? As I write this I would sell the Avanti for two bucks--any takers? Please help resolve this mess. [xx(][xx(][V][V]:(:(

wagone in the Avanti from H*ll

65cruiser
08-22-2005, 08:57 AM
SOLD! Tell me where to Paypal the money[8D]

________________________
Mark Anderson
http://home.alltel.net/anderm
1965 Studebaker Cruiser

wagone
08-22-2005, 10:02 AM
Hey Guys: I've had an e-mail communication from Ted Harbit this morning and he feels that the pump shaft seal where the arm connects to the diaphragm shaft must be missing on this pump and that the oil is therefore coming up the s'charger pressure equalizing hose and then drawn into the carb with the air flow. So I checked and that is the case, the oil was not being drawn along with the fuel. So, apparently I've got two problems--a plugged tank and a missing seal on the fuel pump. But it is going to be real interesting as to what I find in the tank--something that kind of floats around and then gets sucked over the outlet opening from the tank occasionally! I've been told by people who should know that Studebaker did not use a sock type strainer at the discharge from the tank so it is very unlikely that my problem is crud in the tank--but who knows. Any thing put in the tank (a kids toy or ball?) via the filler neck would appear to be prevented from reaching the tank outlet by the baffle.......but the tank's got to come out in any event. H*ll, maybe a bunch of marbles--something small enough to get past the baffle but still large enough to.........

wagone

65cruiser
08-22-2005, 11:17 AM
So, does this mean I'm not the proud owner of an R2 Avanti?[V]

________________________
Mark Anderson
http://home.alltel.net/anderm
1965 Studebaker Cruiser

Buddy1944
08-22-2005, 12:05 PM
Several years ago I had a problem that made my Impala act like it was running out of gas, especilly with a full tank. After a frustrating several months I discovered the gas cap was not venting and the vent tube had crud in it. Does the Avanti have a tank vent and if so, is it venting...?

Buddy...'54 Champion 2dr

Roscomacaw
08-22-2005, 12:17 PM
Good point, Buddy! The wrong type gas cap has crippled more than one good Studebaker.[xx(] And the frustrating thing is that it'll cure itself after it sits a bit. Gets diagnosed as vapor-lock too![:0]

Miscreant at large.

1957 Transtar 1/2ton
1960 Larkvertible V8
1958 Provincial wagon
1953 Commander coupe
1957 President 2-dr
1955 President State
1951 Champion Biz cpe
1963 Daytona project FS

wagone
08-22-2005, 02:10 PM
Thanks for the advice, guys! I don't know if this is the original gas cap (but it sure has the nice looking "use premium fuel only" sticker on it!) or not--but I've blown out the vent line. So I'm ASSUMING (what a NASTY word that is--especially in human relations!) that the tank is vented. There is, however, another '63 Avanti in town that is STILL WITH THE ORIGINAL OWNER (of all things) so I can compare the two--but with the vent line I would think that the cap itself is not vented. This thing is driving me nuts--maybe that's a sign that I don't have far to go![xx(] I've been told by two different people that they don't think there is a strainer or sock on the outlet from the tank or I'd sure think that is the problem--I don't get any (ANY) crud in my see through filter. It sure acts like vapor lock, but yesterday the temp was under 80 degrees and I was cruising at a conservative 60 mph on the open road! And I've blown out the return line to the tank. The return line from the tank has a small diameter opening in it, but I must admit I have never measured it to see how small (MUST do that) it is--supposedly not more than .030-.040" from the factory. And I have a Chevy 160 degree thermostat in it and by the gage it never runs more than 170 degrees--so its not overheating and boiling the fuel--and the line is no closer to the exhaust than any other Avanti (like about 1 1/2 inches away). I wonder if the hose from the fuel pump to the s'charger could have gotten enough oil in it to DRASTICALLY reduce the suction stroke of the fuel pump--nah, that really is crazy. But what the h*ll could be in the tank? I guess I'll not know until I pull the damn thing out. But I sure blew out and burned a quart of oil in a hurry--as well as tore up four hundred dollar bills in the tow home--don't wanna do that again! And the damnest thing is that my (understanding) wife wasn't even surprised when she saw the tow truck pull up in the yard--never even blinked an eye! I haven't decided if that is a good sign or bad--probably neither.;) The guy with the tow truck said (when he finally arrived) that he thought the hose to the pump's inlet was kinda soft--and its a new hose-- and that kinda makes me think of a restriction at the tank or in the suction line (collapsing the hose). I checked the suction on the pump about a week ago (I was thinking the cam eccentric might be worn) and it pulled 15" of mercury with the engine idling (that seems a LOT) so that theory was immediately discounted. But why do I seem to be loosing suction at the pump and after driving for most of an hour-and-half? Crazy! Just thought of a question: might the pump be creating too much suction and thus collapse the hose preventing delivery of fuel. Boy that's kinda crazy too (getting desperate here) and what could cause it if that were the problem? I dunno and I'm at my wits end. Gotta go check that restriction in the return line and see how small is small or how big is big, I suppose.:D

wagone in the cursed Avanti I

Alan
08-22-2005, 02:47 PM
Could be a number of things, best to start cleaning, removing and replacing parts all the way back to the tank and to the cap.
Assume it makes an ass out of u and an ass out of me.

studevic
08-23-2005, 03:26 AM
Hi all, I had a similar problem with my Avanti last year, large amounts of oil over the engine ,fuel woes, it was the new fuel pump pypassing oil out of the fuel pump vent hole, when I pulled the pump apart I found a seal missing.I fitted a replacement pump and no more problems. It took me a long time to figure out.
Roger.

R.A.Jennings

N8N
08-23-2005, 04:48 AM
Wagone,

I had the exact same problem on my '55 coupe when
I installed a "new" 57-58 Golden Hawk fuel pump on it. It actually *solved* my fuel starvation problem but was blowing oil out the bost reference fitting on the pump, which caused lots of scary blue smoke.

The R2 fuel pump is rebuildable, and is not difficult, why not rebuild yours and see what happens? maybe you have some trash in a check valve. It certainly sounds like the diaphragm has still held (and/or you have a blocked fuel line again, as by all rights it *should* be draining into the crankcase.)

BTW I'll pay a whole FIVE bucks for your car, two is really just insultingly low IMHO :)

nate

--
55 Commander Starlight
62 Daytona hardtop
http://home.comcast.net/~njnagel

52hawk
08-23-2005, 08:12 AM
This won't explain your oil loss problem,but a few years ago on a brand-x car we had a siimilar fuel delivery problem.Finally found a tiny rusted area in the gas line above the rear axle,the thing would get fuel for a while then start gradually pulling air into the fuelline from the rust hole.[A tiny wet spot of gas around the rusted line finally showed itself,barely enough to darken the area a bit]
I'll bid $7.00 !!!

Hawks,Larks,and other critters!

GTtim
08-24-2005, 10:02 PM
There is a species of wasp that likes to build mud nests in small tubes/cavities. It has been known to plug more than one gas tank vent tube. I'd check it.
Tim K.

gordr
08-25-2005, 03:41 PM
I'd vote for debris in the tank. Kids seem to like stuffing things in gas tanks, not out of malice, just because it seems to be fun to do. Look for a scrap of plastic bag, or leaves. Another possibilty might be the foil seal from a container of Dry-gas or fuel conditioner.

I had the tank apart on my Avanti many moons ago, and I dont't recall a filter sock, and I'm pretty certian other Studes don't use one, either. If you do take the tank out of the Avanti (fun job, NOT), check the bottom carefully. Sometimes the spot welds that retain the baffles can crack, leading to pinhole leaks and gas fumes in the car. I found several such leaks on my Avanti, and I cleaned the outside of the tank bottom and soldered pennies over the holes using a big old-fashioned copper soldering iron, the kind you heat with a torch a LONG way from the tank under surgery.

Gord Richmond, within Weasel range of the Alberta Badlands

Roscomacaw
08-25-2005, 03:55 PM
I've never seen a "sock" or other type filter in a Stude tank. Wish it was easy to add such![:I]
Ramblers had them tho. At least the early to mid 60s one I have owned did.;)

Miscreant at large.

1957 Transtar 1/2ton
1960 Larkvertible V8
1958 Provincial wagon
1953 Commander coupe
1957 President 2-dr
1955 President State
1951 Champion Biz cpe
1963 Daytona project FS

wagone
08-25-2005, 09:07 PM
Thanks for all the advice guys. As soon as I get a couple of pressing jobs done around here I'm going to pull the tank and see what I find. I'd vote for a pin hole in the fuel line thought only, remember, the fuel line comes out of the bottom (not top) of the tank on the Avanti and hence a hole here is less likely to suck air than a line out the top of the tank where the pump has to lift the fuel. Unless the tank is blocked, gravity should always keep the fuel line on an Avanti full of fuel and thus (it would seem) prevent air from being drawn in--again, UNLIKE a line out the top of the tank. Course if the tank vent is not working all bets are off. Thanks again.

wagone and cursed Avanti I

charley norton
08-26-2005, 04:52 PM
Wagonne! I've been away for awhile and and almost surprised that your still having the same problem. I have personnally decided that the fuel delivery system on the Avanti is crap. I have been dealing with it since day 1 and still have problems. Have you checked the drain fitting. It's located about midway under the car on the drivers side. It's a brass fitting in line with a square headed bolt in it to take out to drain the tank. There was alot of rust in mine when I removed it and reinstalled it on the new line. I had to beat the rust out of it. Also I remember a vent line running from the top of the tank over the to the passenger side and going up somewhere. On mine, I changed everything but the return line, which I blew out. But I think my problem is still in the pump somehow.
Charley

63 R2 Avanti

wagone
08-26-2005, 08:55 PM
Charley: Thanks for the tip about rust in the drain plug beneath the driver's door. I get zero crud in my plastic see-through filter or pump--so I haven't done anything other than blow out the suction (delivery) line, and the vent line, and install a new return line. But I suppose there could be crud (rust, sediment, etc.) in the delivery line and not show up in the pump/filter. I think I'm going to remove the tank and possible install a new delivery line (and also replace the pump as it must be missing a seal). It has become a mite frustrating and I guess I should have done the tank and delivery line sooner, but the line seems clear when I blow compressed air through it and seeing no evidence of crud has made me, logically, not want to mess with the tank and fuel line--that fuel line must be a bear ro replace! I'm going to throw one h*ll of a party when I finally get to the bottom of this (course for me "h*ll of a party" doesn't amount to much compared to others, I suppose). Thanks for your input, and thanks to all--the Avanti will rise again, I hope.

wagone and cursed Avanti I

charley norton
08-27-2005, 08:41 AM
You probably already checked this, but there is a short hose from the line to the bottom of the tank. Mine was rotten. Yours could be collapsed inside. That would be an easy check before you yank the tank. Thats a real "pain in the a**" job I don't wish on anybody. But now the fuel line replacement job wasn't a big deal. Took me about 2 hours. That tank has 2 or 3 baffles in it and if you do the sealing part yourself, your gonna have to really move that thing around to get the stuff through the baffles to coat all sides. If I had to do over, I would probably have found somewhere to send it. If you got no crud and the car didn't spend a few years sitting somewhere with a empty tank(as mine did), then the tank is probably O.K.. I couldn't imagine anyone who feels your pain worse than me. I haven't driven my Avanti in 2 months. Don't even want to. Its got just under 35000 actual miles on it and I know now why. I love the car but it would be nice to have a car that you don't feel like you need to pull a trailer behind with all the necessary emergency parts and tools. I'm not dogging Studebaker so don't anybody get their feathers up. I'm just talking about mine. And really, if it was perfect and didn't need attention, what kind of hobby would that be? So I guess I'll shut up...

63 R2 Avanti

wagone
08-27-2005, 10:30 AM
Charley (and others): Thanks for your thoughts. I have replaced the short hose coming off the elbow at the tank--mine was NOT rotten, but it was sharply kinked (I used the SAE 9 fuel injection type as a replacement thinking that it would be better able to resist future kinking). My hose is sharply kinked because the nipple end on the elbow faces towards the front of the right rear tire and of course the steel line comes at the elbow from the left side or behind the elbow--not a good situation and hence the new hose is probably already kinked...need to crawl under the car and look. Kids may have (being what they are--and this is not undue criticism) pushed any number of things into that tank at one time or another--who knows. So... I'm trying to screw upself up to tackle the job of removal. There may be nothing inside of it but I don't want to drive it again and risk a several hundred dollar towing bill. As for wishing you had sent your tank to someone to have them coat it, I've had trouble with Stude vendors (and others) not performing up to expectations--and you don't know what kind of job was done until you've paid the bill. My steering wheel needs to be recast (I'm presently using a rather cheap Grant wheel) and I'm very unwilling to pay $700-$1000 when you just can't very well find out what their level of expertise is. So IMHO we are all better off doing whatever repairs we can ourselves. As for not being able to drive our cars, I feel your frustration and pain also--and we are not digging Studebaker, but these cars are over 40 years old and sometimes (generally?) need a lot of TLC. Problem is, mine was anything but cheap to buy and in the last couple years I've put another $8000 in it (and I paid WAY more than that when I bought it)--these cars stretch the definition of a hobby. They are more like a form of insanity--but as you say the therapy is good and analysts worth a hoot "ain't" exactly available for peanuts, either. The damnable thing about my recent experience is that it drove fine for about 100 miles before it started acting up--which tends in my mind to re-enforce the thinking that the problem is something inside the tank--course the new fuel pump was also puking oil all over the place. Anyway, I don't want to give up on it, but I might be close to that point. We need to stay in touch, as our cars are kind of paralleling each other.

wagone and cursed Avanti R2

lark55
08-28-2005, 05:36 PM
Many years ago when I first started circle track racing a 62 Hawk I would make about three laps and the car would die. I pulled my hair out trying to figure it out. I finally did find the problem when I replaced the engine and found a small piece of gravel in the angle fitting that fed the fuel pump. It acted like an orifice and would only allow a small flow of fuel to the carb,probably enough to let the bowls fill up but not enough to finish the race. I have no idea how that piece of gravel could have gotten in there.

charley norton
08-31-2005, 07:18 AM
Wagone,
I did a fuel pump swap on my Avanti last weekend and found a couple of things. First, I had put the top gasket on the pump on bassackwards, although somehow it works. But mainly what I found wrong was the return line. Like you, I blew out the line to the tank and found no blockage. This time I looked at where the return line goes on.There's a brass fitting that screws on to the fuel pump. That fitting has a place for the line to the carb. and another for the return line. The one for the return line is a fitting in itself. Take it off and you'll find that tiny hole that we've been hearing about. Mine was blocked solid. I had to use my torch tip drill bits to litterally drill it back out. My upper rpm lag is now officially GONE. I think it an oversite bordering moronic that they (Stude engineers) would have designed such a thing on the before side of the filter. Even a clean tank can produce enough debree to clog this tiny hole. I am planning to reroute my fuel line away from my exhaust manifold (mines about 3\8" away), and when I do, I'm putting the fuel filter before my fuel pump and I would suggest everyone who has this same system do the same. Or just install an electric fuel pump.

63 R2 Avanti