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benny_64
08-17-2005, 09:45 PM
does anyone know of a place to get headers for my 64 lark? i can't find em anywhere. has anyone had luck with a header kit or something along those lines?

slow64
1964 lark daytona
bd_marks@yahoo.com

Dan White
08-17-2005, 10:15 PM
There are R3 cast iron, factory reproduction headers available from most of the major and a few of the minor Stude vendors. There are to my knowledge no aftermarket headers available for Studebaker V8's, however, Headers By Ed sells a flange kit that you could make your own (http://www.headersbyed.com/amc,misc.htm#Studebaker). From several sources there seems to be no benefit to adding headers to a Stude V8. I think Ted Harbit made some a few years back and saw no 1/4 time improvements. You might contact Ted and ask him since he is the speed guru here.

Dan White
64 R1 GT
64 R2 GT

DilloCrafter
08-17-2005, 11:32 PM
That was a good question! In a similar vein, what are the known header choices for a Champion Six, besides Cathcart?

The reason I ask is that I plan to install a dual carb intake, and several people have pointed out that the exhaust manifold will need to be changed out to a dual exhaust setup.

1955 1/2 Ton Pickup

Roscomacaw
08-18-2005, 12:00 AM
Benny,

I can reaffirm what Dan says. Headers are "cool", but they won't buy you anything until you're WAY up there in boosted performance. Even larger exhaust valves aren't a major player until you get significant boost (blower or turbo). Good cam, 500CFM (maybe even 600CFM considering that 301 cube engine I gave you to work with) Edelbrock carb, larger intakes and possibly some intake port work.
As far as the exhaust side goes, you'll get more out of dual pipes and free-flow mufflers than you will out of the more expensive headers.;)

Miscreant at large.

1957 Transtar 1/2ton
1960 Larkvertible V8
1958 Provincial wagon
1953 Commander coupe
1957 President 2-dr
1955 President State
1951 Champion Biz cpe
1963 Daytona project FS

Mike Van Veghten
08-18-2005, 11:54 AM
Not sure I buy the no header thing on Stude engines!!!!! But the perf. cast iron manifold is overall a nice piece....except....
That big ol plug at the exit of the manif., it's a big stepped divider that all but plugs the manifold exit. A long end mill will take care of that though.

Now...for that lump of cast iron, steel, aluminum...KNOWING it's a Studebaker engine.......here and I thought it was just another big heavy air pump!

Headers of the right design "will" work. The cast iron version is much nicer than stock original, but "not" as good as a tuned for the engine parameters set of headers.

cosmo
08-18-2005, 12:14 PM
ok i wasnt going to jump into this at all but i cant help it. right now i have a 170 6 engine in my lark. I know it aint much unless i change the cam. and that work i just dont want to get into cause i'd have to pull the engine and this is my only car. but man have i been wanting to put headers or to split my exhaust. but for one thing anybody who can make custom headers is f**king expensive for my engine cause its so small and its not to common they say. and two i havent been able to find someone in socal who could split a manifold. but man do i really want to do. I really want to pick up a v8 and start rebuilding it. dont know which i'll do first.

Roscomacaw
08-18-2005, 02:18 PM
Mike, you can tout them if you want. I'm NOT the one to ask about first-hand experience with headers. But I have pointedly asked Mr. Harbit about them and simply shared what he's told me. Since he's been drag racing Stude V8s since 1960 or so (and has the wins and records to prove it), I humbly defer to his literal track record(s) and the statements he's made as to how he set them.[:I]

Miscreant at large.

1957 Transtar 1/2ton
1960 Larkvertible V8
1958 Provincial wagon
1953 Commander coupe
1957 President 2-dr
1955 President State
1951 Champion Biz cpe
1963 Daytona project FS

Alan
08-18-2005, 09:53 PM
I don't know about 6's, but on V8's there is a small increase in power, noise and mileage with headers not enough for the money you would spend on them.

DEEPNHOCK
08-18-2005, 10:55 PM
"Digger Dave" from Indiana builds a pretty header setup for Champ engines.
He built the exhaust for the Salt2Salt Bonneville racer.
Nice work.
Jeff[8D]



quote:Originally posted by benny_64

does anyone know of a place to get headers for my 64 lark? i can't find em anywhere. has anyone had luck with a header kit or something along those lines?

slow64
1964 lark daytona
bd_marks@yahoo.com


DEEPNHOCK at Cox.net
'37 Coupe Express
'37 Coupe Express Trailer
'61 Hawk
http://community.webshots.com/photo/42559113/426827941Lsvfrz
http://community.webshots.com/user/deepnhock

benny_64
08-18-2005, 11:23 PM
well it sounds like the headers aren't worth the price, i already have dual exhaust, h-pipe, and two flowmasters set up on my car, so headers probably wouldn't do a whole lot, they are cool though and give you a crisp rev. a bit off the subject, i looked at ted harbits site, he has a lot of cool stuff. few questions, aluminum intake: is it worth the $300. r3 valve springs, is it that much of a gain, or does it just go good with a r2+ cam? just a few curriosities.


slow64
1964 lark daytona
bd_marks@yahoo.com

benny_64
08-18-2005, 11:47 PM
Biggs, i almost forgot, i pulled the pistons out of that engine you gave me, the engine only suffered a little surface corrosion in 1 or 2 of the cylinders, i'll have to take another look but i don't think there was any pitting. got any ideas on how to take care of that rust. i was thinking of a brillo pad and a lot of elbow grease.

slow64
1964 lark daytona
bd_marks@yahoo.com

Alan
08-19-2005, 12:49 AM
I haven't seen the manifold by Ted, but if it is from Stone it may need some cleaning up. Anytime you can lose 30 or so lbs. off the front end it is a good idea, powerwise look for about a 10% increase in power from the manifold and a good carb. On the springs they are dual springs and you have to take the heads off and machine the spring pockets to make them fit. Run your car up to about 5,000 in second gear if it acts like you have a couple of fouled plugs they might help, then again it might be just bad ignition. Sounds like you have money and it's burning a hole in your pocket.

Roscomacaw
08-19-2005, 11:17 AM
That's good news benny. Since you're gonna wanna use new rings (And I'd go with the cast iron), you're gonna have to hone it anyway. It may be that the hone will clean up most of the corrosion you speak of. :D

Miscreant at large.

1957 Transtar 1/2ton
1960 Larkvertible V8
1958 Provincial wagon
1953 Commander coupe
1957 President 2-dr
1955 President State
1951 Champion Biz cpe
1963 Daytona project FS

casey
08-19-2005, 12:14 PM
Here's something to file away- I put the cast iron R3 headers on my Hawk's 289 when I rebuilt it. Later I decided I wanted to try out a Saginaw power steering box on the Hawk; the type found on Studes from '53 to '56(or maybe '57). That big steering box will NOT clear the cast iron R3 headers. It's a very tight fit even with the stock exhaust manifolds.

And why does Lionel Stone tout the R3 headers so highly when everyone else says they make little or no difference? My Hawk really scoots, but I don't know if it's the big intake valves or the headers or any of the other stuff I threw into the rebuild.

Roscomacaw
08-19-2005, 12:51 PM
"why does Lionel Stone tout the R3 headers so highly when everyone else says they make little or no difference?"

Could it be a monetary incentive[?]

Miscreant at large.

1957 Transtar 1/2ton
1960 Larkvertible V8
1958 Provincial wagon
1953 Commander coupe
1957 President 2-dr
1955 President State
1951 Champion Biz cpe
1963 Daytona project FS

Swifster
08-19-2005, 01:09 PM
Well, as a large air pump, it would depend on the entire system. If the heads are the big restriction, headers won't help. I would think increasing the breathing capability of the heads would make headers worth having.

I would guess R3 headers would work well with R3 heads and their larger valves, camshaft, and higher boost pressure of the supercharger. Putting those headers on a 259 (or 289) with stock heads won't make a difference.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Tom - Sterling Heights, MI

Ancient Chinese Proverb: "Injection is nice, but I'd rather be blown!"

1964 Studebaker Daytona - Laguna Blue, Original 4-Spd. Car, Power Steering, Disc Brakes, Bucket Seats, Tinted Glass, Climatizer Ventilation System, AM Radio (136,989 Miles)

Swifster
08-19-2005, 01:11 PM
By the way, if these are cast iron, has anyone looked at doing these in stainless? I would imagine a set of headers made from stainless (or other lightweight steel) if nothing else, would decrease the weight of the front end (however small) from the weight of cast iron manifolds or headers.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Tom - Sterling Heights, MI

Ancient Chinese Proverb: "Injection is nice, but I'd rather be blown!"

1964 Studebaker Daytona - Laguna Blue, Original 4-Spd. Car, Power Steering, Disc Brakes, Bucket Seats, Tinted Glass, Climatizer Ventilation System, AM Radio (136,989 Miles)

Alan
08-19-2005, 02:43 PM
Stainless headers are nice but you are looking at $500.00 up. On the cast iron R3's the Avanti and Larks sit about 3" lower in the chassis, and some people want them for originality but they didn't come on C's or K's anyway.

benny_64
08-19-2005, 10:03 PM
well not a whole lot burning a hole, just want to make sure i put my money in the right places. i am already planning on getting my heads worked on, a r2+ cam, lifters, r3 springs, and flat top pistons. that should be a pretty big change of pace from my burnt out 259. it gets down the road just fine, i just really want more power. but don't we all?

slow64
1964 lark daytona
bd_marks@yahoo.com

DEEPNHOCK
08-20-2005, 08:13 AM
When you get close to needing your headers, give me a call....
Jeff[8D]



quote:Originally posted by benny_64

well not a whole lot burning a hole, just want to make sure i put my money in the right places. i am already planning on getting my heads worked on, a r2+ cam, lifters, r3 springs, and flat top pistons. that should be a pretty big change of pace from my burnt out 259. it gets down the road just fine, i just really want more power. but don't we all?

slow64
1964 lark daytona
bd_marks@yahoo.com


DEEPNHOCK at Cox.net
'37 Coupe Express
'37 Coupe Express Trailer
'61 Hawk
http://community.webshots.com/photo/42559113/426827941Lsvfrz
http://community.webshots.com/user/deepnhock

curt
08-20-2005, 09:17 AM
A question: a header is equal to manifild?

Sonny
08-20-2005, 05:37 PM
quote:Originally posted by curt

A question: a header is equal to manifild?


Basically, yes, headers replace your exhaust manifolds. However, headers, (constructed of individual sections of exhaust pipe that connect to each individual exhaust port on your head), are "tuned" to extract the exhaust gasses and be much more free flowing into your exhaust system, (as opposed to your engine normally having to push the gasses out when it has stock exhaust manifolds). They do increase power when they are tuned correctly.

Sonny
http://RacingStudebakers.com

DilloCrafter
08-20-2005, 07:49 PM
If I put a dual intake on my Champion Six, I'll need exhaust headers. On this page at Cathcarts http://www.cathcartsstudebaker.com/products/performance/performance.htm what is that upward protruding stud on the left side header?

1955 1/2 Ton Pickup

Transtar60
08-20-2005, 09:16 PM
You can ask Cathart but I believe thats the choke air heat tube, not a stud.

DilloCrafter
08-20-2005, 10:40 PM
Thanks, Transtar60. You're a stud.

1955 1/2 Ton Pickup

Chicken Hawk
08-20-2005, 11:56 PM
I guess my name has been mentioned a couple times on this subject so I'll pass on what my experience has been. Back in the '50's when I started running the 232, I had the stock exhaust manifolds. When I went to the first set of headers, they were a "Y" type. They did help a little over the stock 232 manifolds but those are really small ports on those manifolds. The headers did make some difference but it was not a great deal.

I later experimented with some different home made tube headers and none helped any more than the other. I even put a divider in the center port one time and used four pipes. When I started the engine I thought I really had hit on something. The car sounded totally different and MUCH louder. ET slips showed they didn't help either. I even run pipes back almost to the start of the rear fenders and tried cutting them off about six inches at a time and nothing I did seemed to make any difference.

Years later when I put an R 2 engine in place of the 232, I used a set of three tube headers I had run on the 232. Later I made another set with bigger pipes as the 232 pipes were pretty small. When I put the bigger pipes on, it made no difference.

I have experimented some with stock manifolds and the tube headers and the cast iron R 3 headers and I can say the headers do help some over the stock manifolds; however, unless you have money left over after doing some other more power yielding things such as cam, bigger valves, compression, etc., headers would be last on the list for dollars spent per hp gain.

Of course you should go to at least 2" exhaust all the way back and preferably 2 1/4". We have 2 1/2" on the Tomato and Plain Brown Wrapper simply because the rules say we can go up to that size.

On the Chicken Hawk with the dual turbos, I didn't want to take time to build headers so I just turned the stock exhaust manifold unside down and made a box on them to mount the turbos. I've often wondered how much difference a set of headers would make on it. I do have a set made for the Avanti to mount the turbos on if I ever get time to work on it.

I read one post where the aluminum intake was mentioned. I did try that and even cut on it and rewelded trying to improve the ports to make them more even as they were pretty poor. About all I can say about the aluminum intake is it will run cooler and is lighter but I didn't fine any increase in performace with it.

All this has just been my experience and others may have found different results. Naturally on headers, I think the more headwork done with larger valves, etc., will help some.

Naturally aspirated engines probably do not need any bigger exhaust valves. The 1.531 stock exhaust is pretty good size so the most gain would be with the R 3 intakes (1.875" compared to the stock 1.656").

Ted

Alan
08-21-2005, 12:16 PM
My experiances mirror Ted's, I have found the most gains on Studes to come from a change in gears and ways to get more traction. Studes seem to run strong up to third gear and flaten out on the top end.

Alan
08-21-2005, 12:34 PM
My experiances mirror Ted's. I have been running a 53K in the L.A. area since 1958 at San Fernando Raceway and others in N and M Stock. The best way I have found to improve performance is with gears and and traction. Studes come out of the hole good but tend to flatten out in 3rd. gear, nothing is so unnerving as geting a hole shot and watching as the other guy comes up in the rear view mirror on the top end.

Roscomacaw
08-21-2005, 02:30 PM
Thanks Ted. I don't feel real comfortable dragging someone else's name into the fray, but if it means keeping someone from frivilously tossing money around, I figure they ought to know what's already been learned in the past. I've been away since I last posted to this topic and while gone, I got to thinking that I should have mentioned that the standard exhaust valves seem to be adequate.
Ted, will the R3 intake valves clear the cylinder ridge without chamfering it? The engine I gave benny to work with has been bored .080 over already. Thanks.:D

Miscreant at large.

1957 Transtar 1/2ton
1960 Larkvertible V8
1958 Provincial wagon
1953 Commander coupe
1957 President 2-dr
1955 President State
1951 Champion Biz cpe
1963 Daytona project FS

Mike Van Veghten
08-22-2005, 03:00 PM
Funny.
No one likes headers...but some say the exhaust valve is currently large enough for a naturly aspirated engine?? This "is" a correct statement.

With so many people asking me to put the larger exhaust valves in when porting and installing larger intakes on a carbureted engine, then get upset because I say it's not the correct thing to do...despite "what the Stude experts told me!"

Actually, the exhaust valve is a quite a bit too large in stock form, compared to the "stock" intake. The size difference is, the exhaust should be approx. 80% of the intake. So that means the exhaust should be 1.50" diameter with a 1.875" intake. I've looked at a smaller hard seat inserts but can't get a long enough one to fill more of the port bowl for proper blending.

Roscomacaw
08-22-2005, 03:20 PM
I'm curious, Mike. Do you just summarily install hardened seats on all Stude heads you do? I ask because this is contrary wisdom to what the Stude experts have been preaching all along.
I'm running the same un-seated heads on my Transtar that that engine had when I rescued it from a bent 64 Daytona. I think maybe I've adjusted the valves 3 times in 16 years of driving it. Driving it long and often and using the truck to pull other Studes on heavy trailers - up and over the grapevine and up and down the state. No detectable seat regression yet.
I've got scads of V8 heads lying around here - none with seat erosion. Why is this?[?]

Miscreant at large.

1957 Transtar 1/2ton
1960 Larkvertible V8
1958 Provincial wagon
1953 Commander coupe
1957 President 2-dr
1955 President State
1951 Champion Biz cpe
1963 Daytona project FS

Alan
08-22-2005, 03:41 PM
Hey Mike why don't you try Martin Wells in L.A. they do nothing but seats and will build you any thing that you want.

Mike Van Veghten
08-22-2005, 04:07 PM
MrBiggs,

Depends on the application. If it's going to be an around town car, or occasional trip car, no I don't. But if the person's going to actually be driving it, yes, absolutly. I'd rather them spend a few extra bucks now than have them unhappy later cause the exhaust valves won't stay adjusted.

Funny, my everyday driver, a 59 Lark w/259...I've had for about 7 years now... I adjusted the valves not long after I bought it. For being made of "super iron", they need the exhaust adjusted just like most any other early headded enginge....about 4000/4500 miles, while the intakes normally get adjusted every 5 or 6 exhaust adjustment intervals.

Another thing about the "super iron"...I've noticed a big difference in the way the fresh iron (after grinding, machining, etc.) differs from head to head. I've had one head discolor in days, while the one next to it stays clean and shiney untill I'm done with them. Gotta say something about the consistancy of the batch to batch material in the cast iron of the 50's/60's. Stude iron also doesn't wear out cutters any faster then plain ol Chevy - Ford - Chrysler iron heads. As for being overall a better material than any other....not as far as I've seen so far.

Alan,

Thanks, I've talked to them in the past. When you get away from the norm, the cost skyrockets. Most Stude guys have a hard enough time justifying the porting in the first place. I am thinking about it for plugging the heat crossover ports though. I want to plug them in a set of heads for myself right at the back of the port....so all the ports are the same in the bowl area.
Thanks again.

Chicken Hawk
08-22-2005, 10:33 PM
Mr. Biggs: Most of the time, the R 3 intakes will clear on a stock bore; however, I would ALWAYS check to be sure. I have had to trim .020" off the valve to get clearance (.010" per side). Unless the engine is bored at least .030" I would check to be sure. It's so easy to check it's not worth chancing it.

As for the inserts, I sold several sets when in the parts business but always gave them my experience which is I've never put them in any of my own engines and haven't had any problems.

Ted

N8N
08-22-2005, 10:37 PM
Thanks for the info Ted, I was just wondering the same thing myself! Got a std. bore 289 (as far as I know, that is) that seems to run strong and was thinking of warming it up some... guess I will have to just build a whole 'nother engine if I want ultimate power.

nate

--
55 Commander Starlight
62 Daytona hardtop
http://home.comcast.net/~njnagel

Roscomacaw
08-23-2005, 08:53 AM
Thanks Ted!;) benny - did you get that?:D

Miscreant at large.

1957 Transtar 1/2ton
1960 Larkvertible V8
1958 Provincial wagon
1953 Commander coupe
1957 President 2-dr
1955 President State
1951 Champion Biz cpe
1963 Daytona project FS